Martial Arts and Physical Fitness

[Makalakumu]

I try to avoid preset requirements, For testing the student is tested on the number of squats or pushup and then on the next test must beat that number. Oh yeah, the student believes that there is a number, which is always "just a few more'. We avoid weights and go with body weight exercises among othere reasons for the conditioning.

A person does not have to be in shape. We do Staminai, strenght, flexibilty, skill or sparring training in each class. People are encourages to cross train, I don't force them into the Vic tanny routine, I'd rather have em in my class!
Todd

I don't think that a beginner needs to be "in shape" but I think that building fitness is just as important as building good technique as an artist. Therefore, a BB in an art should probably be in very good physical shape.

I suppose we could argue a long time about what "good shape" entails and that is okay. Realistically, dojos/dojangs with different standards on fitness give people more options that fit their body type.

I'm looking at your post and I can see you do fitness orientated drills in your class, too.

In my opinion, the best of both worlds combines the two aspects, technique and fitness.

 

[jfarnsworth]

To earn a black Belt under my instructor, all students must be able to run two miles in 15 minutes, bench press their own weight, squat 1.5 times their own weight, be able to do 50 fingertip push ups and 50 decline sit-ups. Is this too much to require? Too little?

I'd say that's too much to ask of people. I do however think that physical fitness is important but people have their limitations. (side note: In the TKD section we discussed this in great depth and I made my point known on that thread). I prefer to see people run through their basics, move on to their forms and then perform self defense techniques on each other. Personally I could care less if the guy beside me can do 100 crunches. I tend to worry about me and the shape I'm in and make sure that I can run through a 2 or 2.5 hr. test w/o sucking wind at the end. :asian:

 

[Colin_Linz]

One of the philosophies of Shorinji Kempo is that it is not necessary to make your body into a weapon; by this I mean conditioning exercises like hardening the shins and knuckles, as we attack the naturally weak areas of the body. You will attain a degree of fitness under normal training practices, but we don’t specifically train for fitness, as we are not a sport art and don’t require it. I would rather spend the time teaching/learning better technique, and do fitness training some other time.

From a self defence point of view, the type of speed that comes with fitness training only stays with you while you’re training and young; however good technique stays much longer and you will still be fast when you become older. Most times you are required to defend your self, it will involve anaerobic energy rather than aerobic energy. There will be no need to go 10 rounds, just a short explosive period of time.

 

[Makalakumu]

For my second dan test, I had to spar three trained BBs at the same time. These guys came in at me full speed and we wore protective gear because the contact level was high. The match was thirty seconds and the adrenelin was flowing. By the end, I could barely talk...and I would consider myself to be in very good shape. I have seen people collapse and/or vomit after this encounter unable to continue.

What if there were a forth guy?

This is why I feel like physical fitness is just as much of a martial skill as any technique that we learn.

 

[Colin_Linz]

For my second dan test, I had to spar three trained BBs at the same time. These guys came in at me full speed and we wore protective gear because the contact level was high. The match was thirty seconds and the adrenelin was flowing. By the end, I could barely talk...and I would consider myself to be in very good shape. I have seen people collapse and/or vomit after this encounter unable to continue.

What if there were a forth guy?

This is why I feel like physical fitness is just as much of a martial skill as any technique that we learn.

What you’re describing is anaerobic fitness, at this intensity it doesn’t matter how fit you are you will not last long. It is true that a good aerobic base and the right type of interval training can push your aerobic threshold up, and reduce your recovery time. As well as Martial Arts I also coach Cycling. I had the chance to view one of our elite cyclists telemetry from a 20-kilometre time trial. His heart rate was over 200 beats per minute, and he was still operating aerobically. This; however is different to a conflict, you won’t be able to pace your self and your heart rate will go sky high, the adrenalin will see to that even if your physical exertion doesn’t. You will go anaerobic, and no matter how fit you are you won’t be able to sustain it for very long. You will live or die by how well you respond to the attack, this is were the correct training comes in. Fitness is important for general well being, or being able to compete in a sport; but when it comes to defending yourself the main factor is the correct trained responses. Of course fitness does help in making a quick getaway.

 

[jfarnsworth]

This is why I feel like physical fitness is just as much of a martial skill as any technique that we learn.

I understand your point of view. It's nice to see your studio carrying high standards but the general population don't like to train like that. Again, I'm not saying that you are wrong or your instructor but the time in the studio should be placed on forms and self defense techniques with plenty of basics. I like a tough, hard class full of beating on bodies with as close to live techniques we can get. Sometimes it comes down to 'ya gotta put up your **ts and go. In this day and age most people want something for nothing and will put in as little effort to get it as well. Unfortunately that's true. :asian:

 

[TigerWoman]

We actually have physical fitness guidelines in our system. To earn a black Belt under my instructor, all students must be able to run two miles in 15 minutes, bench press their own weight, squat 1.5 times their own weight, be able to do 50 fingertip push ups and 50 decline sit-ups. Is this too much to require? Too little?

In my thirties I could do two miles in 15 since I was running six most every day, but then I had little upper body strength since I used my time to run. And didn't value it much then. Can't do everything. I would never be able to do 50 fingertips pushups. My fingers are long and crooked never mind the triceps etc. Situps I could do. But I do believe each person should have a goals on paper and upon testing see where you are at on them. I see too many people get to BB testing on a wish instead of a will and just skate until their test. I haven't seen anybody test that was in great shape...that actually worked on flexibility, stamina, cardio, balance, and upper body strength. I'm 55 and probably could still run them all into the ground. So I heartlily agree, a martial artist should be be fit and a TKDoist must be. TW

 

[FearlessFreep]

FWIW, I started about six months ago and I do a set of physical exercises in the morning and evening because part of my reason for being in TKD in the first palce was to get back in shape and partially that's my only way of competing with the (often yonger) people around me.

Morning -
Loosen up and stretching exercises
60 pushups*
60 situps
6 minutes jump rope
poomses - few times each

*the number of pusups/situps and time jumping rope increase every few weeks

Evening
30 situps
60 more pushups (but usually do two sets of 30 on an inclined surface)
eveing tends to be more free-form. I try to do the situps faste or do different kinds of pushups or some limited jump rope with some snapkicks in the motion or...something to be more of a challenge

This is just trying to get myself back into some minimal fitness after a long time of doing nothing. In TKD, if you are not loose and have leg strength, you really can't kick; if you have no stamina, you'll never survive sparring. If you are overweight, good luck moving.

 

[Colin_Linz]

I would agree that if you are in a sporting Martial Art fitness will be an issue. I also believe in keeping fit, but not wasting time doing conditioning training in the context of a Martial Arts class based on self-defence. I will do this external to the class, and the motivation will not be because I'm a Martial Artist, but just because I enjoy the training and being fit.

Recently we held the Oceania study session for Shorinji Kempo on the Gold Coast. We had three instructors out from Japan, one of them was Fujimoto sensei, a 62 year old 8th dan. Now I recon I could out run him or beat him in some strength related contest. Do I think he is an inferior martial artist to me? Not on your life! When he demonstrated a technique I watched him closely because he could teach me much.

 

[Simon Curran]

I would agree that if you are in a sporting Martial Art fitness will be an issue. I also believe in keeping fit, but not wasting time doing conditioning training in the context of a Martial Arts class based on self-defence. I will do this external to the class, and the motivation will not be because I'm a Martial Artist, but just because I enjoy the training and being fit.

Recently we held the Oceania study session for Shorinji Kempo on the Gold Coast. We had three instructors out from Japan, one of them was Fujimoto sensei, a 62 year old 8th dan. Now I recon I could out run him or beat him in some strength related contest. Do I think he is an inferior martial artist to me? Not on your life! When he demonstrated a technique I watched him closely because he could teach me much.

Kind of a verbalisation (if that is possible with text) of my own thoughts, I know of some guys who are considerably older than me, and not necessarily as fit as me, but I wouldn't want to think they were coming to take away my lunch money...

 

[Makalakumu]

Okay, I have a few points...

1. Fitness is relative. Age, injuries, and body type all come into play when one is talking about physical fitness. That is why I think that fitness requirements should be adjusted somewhat per person. (My opinion differs from my instructor in this)
2. Fitness is easy to incorporate into a self defense orientated martial art. Learning good technique is one thing, but application is another. Training application requires drilling and the construction of your drilling practice can really make the sweat flow.
3. Two instructors, both the same rank and age. One is fit, one is not. Who do you think will have the most students? I think the physically fit instructor may be percieved as being more serious about the art.
4. Everyone can have something to teach. Physically fit or not. I would pay attention to an instructor and respect that instructor fit or not. My art will grow regardless.
5. In the above situation I described, those who could not continue were hands down the least physically fit. The lesson they learned was that fitness was important to self defense. This shows that you can have great technique, but be ineffective if you lack the wind to perform it.

I like the above description for an easily accomplished workout routine. Good one FearlessFreep

 

[Colin_Linz]

Okay, I have a few points...

1. Fitness is relative. Age, injuries, and body type all come into play when one is talking about physical fitness. That is why I think that fitness requirements should be adjusted somewhat per person. (My opinion differs from my instructor in this)
2. Fitness is easy to incorporate into a self defense orientated martial art. Learning good technique is one thing, but application is another. Training application requires drilling and the construction of your drilling practice can really make the sweat flow.
3. Two instructors, both the same rank and age. One is fit, one is not. Who do you think will have the most students? I think the physically fit instructor may be percieved as being more serious about the art.
4. Everyone can have something to teach. Physically fit or not. I would pay attention to an instructor and respect that instructor fit or not. My art will grow regardless.
5. In the above situation I described, those who could not continue were hands down the least physically fit. The lesson they learned was that fitness was important to self defense. This shows that you can have great technique, but be ineffective if you lack the wind to perform it.

I like the above description for an easily accomplished workout routine. Good one FearlessFreep

1. No problems here, I take it even further. Only the student knows how they are feeling, so it is up to them to decide if the intensity is too high, or if an exercise may not be good for them at the time. Most people will honestly try to do their best, and over time will be on a par with everyone else.
2. Yes indeed; however I regard application as technical training. This is legitimate productive training, unlike some classes I have seen that spend 1 hour of a 1.5 hour class on callisthenics. Once again if it is sport related there is a need, but even so I would rather spend the time improving their skill levels. They can go to an aerobics or circuit class any other time. I am a qualified coach, but I can teach them martial arts better than conduct fitness training. There are many fitness specialists out there that could do a better job.
3. I will concede that those with little knowledge of martial arts may choose the fitter looking instructor, but those with some experience will chose the instructor that they believe can teach them the most. Matsuda sensei in Tokyo is just an ordinary looking slightly overweight elderly gentlemen. This has not stoped him from having one of the biggest branches in Tokyo, he even has a number of students ranking 6 dan. Why is this? Because he is a very good martial artist and teacher.
4. Yes, this is true. It can even be true with regard to your students.

 

[Makalakumu]

[*]Yes, this is true. It can even be true with regard to your students.[/list]

I think we in agreement then. I wouldn't want to spend my class time doing calisthenics. I would, however, like to combine MA activities that incorporate fitness as part of teaching techniques...

The last part is the hidden secret of teaching martial arts. The students teach the teacher about his/her art at the same time that the teacher teaches them!

 

[terryl965]

physical fitnes is just as important as your mind being fit. Why do some people believe these two are seperate you must have both to be able to be active in martial arts, my opion anyway.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

i guess you will just have to define "fitness" then.

shawn

 

[MichiganTKD]

Physical fitness will be a natural byproduct of continued martial arts practice. It is only natural.
However, one thing that irritates me is Instructors who are obviously out of shape teaching younger, physically fit students. Why? Because students will naturally mimic the technique and movements of the person teaching them. If you have a younger student learning Tae Kwon Do from an older, out of shape, slower moving assistant, they will naturally copy that assistant's technique without being aware of it. What you will then have is a group of young, supposedly athletic students moving like old men. I've seen it happen.
You don't have to necessarily be in prime physical shape to practice or teach. However, an Instructor definitely needs to make sure that the person teaching a particular group is suited for that group. Nothing worse than a person with athletic ability, or young, or with a lot of potential learning consistantly under someone fat, old and slow moving, stiff, or inflexible. Guess what their technique will look like as well?

 

[Colin_Linz]

physical fitnes is just as important as your mind being fit. Why do some people believe these two are seperate you must have both to be able to be active in martial arts, my opion anyway.

I don't have a problem with concept; it is what we refer to as Ken zen ichinyo. My worry comes from the imbalance you sometimes see within schools where they are concerned overly with fitness.

 

[Colin_Linz]

Physical fitness will be a natural byproduct of continued martial arts practice. It is only natural.
However, one thing that irritates me is Instructors who are obviously out of shape teaching younger, physically fit students. Why? Because students will naturally mimic the technique and movements of the person teaching them. If you have a younger student learning Tae Kwon Do from an older, out of shape, slower moving assistant, they will naturally copy that assistant's technique without being aware of it. What you will then have is a group of young, supposedly athletic students moving like old men. I've seen it happen.
You don't have to necessarily be in prime physical shape to practice or teach. However, an Instructor definitely needs to make sure that the person teaching a particular group is suited for that group. Nothing worse than a person with athletic ability, or young, or with a lot of potential learning consistantly under someone fat, old and slow moving, stiff, or inflexible. Guess what their technique will look like as well?

I have had the privilege of training under a number of older less fit instructors, but no unfit ones. Sometimes they may not move as well as the once did, but if they are good instructors you still gain much. I don’t know that you will find any unfit martial artist, maybe ex ones but not ones currently training. As has been said, it is a natural by-product of training.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

1)Physical fitness will be a natural byproduct of continued martial arts practice. It is only natural.

2) a)However, one thing that irritates me is Instructors who are obviously out of shape teaching younger, physically fit students. Why? Because students will naturally mimic the technique and movements of the person teaching them.
b)If you have a younger student learning Tae Kwon Do from an older, out of shape, slower moving assistant, they will naturally copy that assistant's technique without being aware of it.
c)What you will then have is a group of young, supposedly athletic students moving like old men. I've seen it happen.

3)You don't have to necessarily be in prime physical shape to practice or teach. However, an Instructor definitely needs to make sure that the person teaching a particular group is suited for that group.

4)Nothing worse than a person with athletic ability, or young, or with a lot of potential learning consistantly under someone fat, old and slow moving, stiff, or inflexible. Guess what their technique will look like as well?

1) i stand by this phrase....i have said it many times myself

2) a)i wouldnt say older instructors obviously out of shape.........while they might not be the shape you want them to be in or appear in great shape...most of these guys could outdo the younger guys in strength and endurance
b) of course they should copy it.......they are obviously instructing for a reason
c) i think the moving like an old man is a superior way.........simply because it goes to show that you dont have to bounce around like a kid thats eaten 20 snickers bars and still get the job done

3) i really dont get what you mean here

4) are you saying fat, old guys have no place in the martial arts?

shawn

 

[The Kai]

Fast explosive movements are trained by working in a fast explosive manner. If your teacher is slow and leaden, you will mimic slow and leaden.

Myself i would always much rather move like a young Muhammadi Ali than a older Muhammd Ali,
Todd