Locking Horns

[jfarnsworth]

The next up on the list should be Locking Horns. This is the class description that I have used so far, variations probably exist from instructor/studio/ and preference feel free to add any info. you feel is importatn.


5. LOCKING HORNS (front right arm headlock)
1. With feet in line with each other and body bent forward, step forward with your right foot toward 11 o'clock and deliver a right upward vertical reverse hand sword to opponent's groin while simultaneously having your left hand check opponent's right thigh just above the knee and your chin turned in such a position so as to keep your breathing constant. (Turn your chin to the right and tuck it against your chest.)
2. Immediately follow-up with a right obscure vertical elbow strike to opponent's jaw while keeping in a shallow right neutral bow (flower out).
3. After snapping the elbow to opponent's jaw loop your right elbow and strike again (shuffling forward if needed) having it drive from 1 o'clock down to 7 o'clock to the left side of opponent's jaw as your left heel of palm hooks in and strikes opponent's right jaw thus causing a sandwiching effect.
4. Front crossover cover out towards 6 o’clock.

 

[Brother John]

Try this on for size:
on #1 of the technique.
W/the outward swordhand to the left knee, strike 'through' the knee... hitting first w/the swordhand then roll it over (counter-clockwise) into an outward/downward knuckle rake to the lower head of the medial-quadriceps head (easiest thigh muscle to target as it tends to stick out a bit from the knee). This motion will help to bend his leg out more, opening up the groin a bit more... not to mention the added pain to the knee.

Hope I was clear.
Your Brother
John

 

[Kenpomachine]

1. With feet in line with each other and body bent forward, step forward with your right foot toward 11 o'clock and deliver a right upward vertical reverse hand sword to opponent's groin while simultaneously having your left hand check opponent's right thigh just above the knee and your chin turned in such a position so as to keep your breathing constant.

We've also done this (like 15 years or so ago, when I first study kenpo) with the left hand pinching in the nerve in the thigh near the groin, instead of checking. There's a pressure point in there.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
The next up on the list should be Locking Horns. This is the class description that I have used so far, variations probably exist from instructor/studio/ and preference feel free to add any info. you feel is importatn.


5. LOCKING HORNS (front right arm headlock)
1. With feet in line with each other and body bent forward, step forward with your right foot toward 11 o'clock and deliver a right upward vertical reverse hand sword to opponent's groin while simultaneously having your left hand check opponent's right thigh just above the knee and your chin turned in such a position so as to keep your breathing constant. (Turn your chin to the right and tuck it against your chest.) .....

You won't get any farther than this. You'll be choked out. There are many mechanisms missing but let's start with the basic. If you turn your head AWAY from the choke to your right, you will loose conciousness, possibly have your neck broken, or be taken down. Either way, you loose. Sorry.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Yes I do realize that. My JJ friend & I went over this a while back. I wanted to get his couple of pennies on it and he said you only have maybe a couple of seconds and it's over. He showed me a very effective counter to a choke from the front like that. The only problem being is that for OUR art it utilizes both our arms then moves into a throw. I can do the throw/takedown version he gave as an example but it may not be for everyone else. Tomorrow I have a private with him maybe we'll cover it again and get some more insight.

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Doc
You won't get any farther than this. You'll be choked out. There are many mechanisms missing but let's start with the basic. If you turn your head AWAY from the choke to your right, you will loose conciousness, possibly have your neck broken, or be taken down. Either way, you loose. Sorry.

Sir,
That is true, however aren't you supposed to move prior to them completing the lock of choke? I had a confrontation similar to this attack when I was in high school. I got into it with another student and ended up in a front headlock somehow (I was just a yellow belt back then), when I hit the groin shot that dude immediately let go and grabbed for what hurt. I know that was a one in a million senario, but isn't that how it "should" work?

:asian:

 

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by Doc
If you turn your head AWAY from the choke to your right, you will loose conciousness, possibly have your neck broken, or be taken down. Either way, you loose. Sorry.

Isn't this true if you turn your head TOWARD the choke? They can't exactly choke the back of your neck right?

 

[jfarnsworth]

I think he's talking about tucking your chin to your right or left shoulder.

 

[jfarnsworth]

After the class last night I had with my JJ friend he showed three different counters to this applied choke that were really good. Unfortunately I don't think I can type the movements in terms on the board. Sorry guys. If it comes to me I will but they were a little too hard for description purposes.

 

[Kenpomachine]

Don't worry about that. If you feel sometime like describing them, it's welcome, if not, we'll manage with the hand sword to the groin.
It worked so far for kenpo3631

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by kenpo_cory
Isn't this true if you turn your head TOWARD the choke? They can't exactly choke the back of your neck right?

Sir's, the attack is not a "front choke," it is a "front headlock" that has the potential to become a choke. That changes the scenario significantly.

Turning the head INTO the headlock and placing the chin against your clavicle will preclude the choke. Then you have time to work the "headlock" counter should you have a mechanism.

Should you turn your head away from the headlock, you complete the "lock" and will be unable to move forward as the technique suggests without snapping your own neck.

Additionally as I alluded to previously, commercial applications teach counters as "attempts" before the assaults are completed because the mechanisms needed to counter completed "hands on" assaults are generally not known.

I always compliment those who recognize dificiencies in their instruction who attempt to rectify those inadequacies rather than accept the obvious problems imposed by the commercial applications. However it should be made known the answers do exist in American Kenpo depending on the knowledge level and study venue of the instructor.

Clearly if hands on assaults are only practiced as attempts then, when do learn to actually extricate yourself? After all American kenpo is a self defense art, not an "except when he grabs me good art."

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Doc
Additionally as I alluded to previously, commercial applications teach counters as "attempts" before the assaults are completed because the mechanisms needed to counter completed "hands on" assaults are generally not known.

Sir,

With all due respect I think I am confused. Just yesterday I was teaching Triggered Salute, Captured Twigs, Captured Leaves, and Entangled Wing. While some of these presented difficulties one thing that was not difficult was that the attacks were a Push, Rear Bear Hug Arms Pinned, Fingerlock, and "Front Wristlock as taught."

When I started with Triggered Salute I was very careful to point out that is against a Push. Not an attempted push. The two are not the same as it turns out. And on each of these I realized just now, there is a lock or strike involved.

I always point this out. I always tell them that Delayed Sword is vs a Grab. I always make sure they let the attack happen before they move. As I frequently explain, we have techniques later which you can use if you pick up the attack Before it gets to you.

I get this from Mr. Duffy of course. Are you saying that you don't believe that commercial schools generally teach this way? Because I have had this reinforced at camps and seminars by the likes of Mr. LaBounty, Tom Kelly, Frank Trejo, Bob White, John Sepulveda, Bryan Hawkins, Bob Liles, Dennis Conatser, Howard Silva and others whom I'm fortunate enough to train with periodically and I don't think these guys change their methods of teaching just for the camps and seminars I attend.

I am sure that I must be misunderstanding what you are saying.

This "grab vs attempted grab" stuff might be best discussed on another thread.

But regarding Locking Horns, is not one of the first "simultaneous" moves to look away from the elbow as you tuck your chin and step in? I was taught to always look to the opening but I have mistakenly turned into the elbow on occasion and since we are not practicing these at "combat force or speed" often, especially with White and Yellow Belts it often seems like it doesn't matter although we point out that you have a much better chance of being smothered if you don't turn to the opening. And after looking at this technique description again, if you step in with your right is this not because his right is on top of your head with his fist to your right? So you step in with your right and turn your head left toward the opening? I may not understand the "headlock" attack as I have it as someone reaching behind your head with his right and then rolling you onto his left forearm and pulling you in. Does anyone have photos or maybe a clip of this technique to illustrate it?

I "dropped all those names above" just to let you know that these guys definitely have taught me techniques that were not altered to be against "attempted" grabs when they were not written to be so. I am looking forward to you straightening me out on this issue because as I said, I'm sure that either you are not referring to the guys I mention or that I am just missing your point completely.

Thank you. :asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by cdhall
Sir,

With all due respect I think I am confused. Just yesterday I was teaching Triggered Salute, Captured Twigs, Captured Leaves, and Entangled Wing. While some of these presented difficulties one thing that was not difficult was that the attacks were a Push, Rear Bear Hug Arms Pinned, Fingerlock, and "Front Wristlock as taught."

When I started with Triggered Salute I was very careful to point out that is against a Push. Not an attempted push. The two are not the same as it turns out. And on each of these I realized just now, there is a lock or strike involved.

I always point this out. I always tell them that Delayed Sword is vs a Grab. I always make sure they let the attack happen before they move. As I frequently explain, we have techniques later which you can use if you pick up the attack Before it gets to you.

I get this from Mr. Duffy of course. Are you saying that you don't believe that commercial schools generally teach this way? Because I have had this reinforced at camps and seminars by the likes of Mr. LaBounty, Tom Kelly, Frank Trejo, Bob White, John Sepulveda, Bryan Hawkins, Bob Liles, Dennis Conatser, Howard Silva and others whom I'm fortunate enough to train with periodically and I don't think these guys change their methods of teaching just for the camps and seminars I attend.

I am sure that I must be misunderstanding what you are saying.

No you don't misunderstand. Most do not teach that way.

But regarding Locking Horns, is not one of the first "simultaneous" moves to look away from the elbow as you tuck your chin and step in?

Nope!

I was taught to always look to the opening but I have mistakenly turned into the elbow on occasion and since we are not practicing these at "combat force or speed" often, especially with White and Yellow Belts it often seems like it doesn't matter although we point out that you have a much better chance of being smothered if you don't turn to the opening.

Nope! That is incorrect. The assault is a headlock not a "smother" or a choke, but it can turn into a choke if you do not extricate yourself. A head lock and choke are not the same.

And after looking at this technique description again, if you step in with your right is this not because his right is on top of your head with his fist to your right?

Nope! If one arm is on top and the other on the bottom, you have nothing especially not a head lock.

So you step in with your right and turn your head left toward the opening?

Nope! You step back.

I may not understand the "headlock" attack as I have it as someone reaching behind your head with his right and then rolling you onto his left forearm and pulling you in.

Your description of the head lock suggests you do not understand the nature of the assault. The head lock is accomplished when you "lock" someone with the right forearm underneath, right hand to your left and BRACED by your left hand underneath your right hand. they cannot step forward when the headlock is applied, only before it is applied in an "attempt." You must first survive the head lock before other considerations.

If all this "grappling and jiu-jitsu stuff is being taught, why are so many of these students finding it necessary to leave for other arts for the answers? Why are so many saying "Kenpo doesn't address these things."

So tell me, how do you get out of "Entagled Wing" or "Twisted Twig" AFTER they are applied? I'd be interested in how you've been taught or interpret the technique.

 

[kenpo3631]

So tell me, how do you get out of "Entagled Wing" or "Twisted Twig" AFTER they are applied? I'd be interested in how you've been taught or interpret the technique.

I am sure at the more advanced levels of Kenpo (Sub Level 4 stuff) you will learn how to do this and I am sure it is a worth while endeavor. As far as doing the aforementioned techniques, I was always taught that the technique needs to be done before the lock is fully applied, I have even attended seminars where Mr. Parker himself made that statement. Again I understand that there is more to Kenpo than what is taught at one seminar however for the majority of students, this methodology makes the most sense to translate the motion idea that is being conveyed.

If all this "grappling and jiu-jitsu stuff is being taught, why are so many of these students finding it necessary to leave for other arts for the answers? Why are so many saying "Kenpo doesn't address these things."

I don't think that people feel that this stuff isn't taught in the system of Parker Kenpo just that many instructors don't have the knowledge or have only touched upon the subject of Sub Level 4 with Parker before his untimely death. Also many students including the black belts have their hands full learning the theories and concepts to get them to their particular goals. Just because a person has one understanding of the art doesn't make it incorrect, just different. Only through practice and analytical study of the art can one become proficient and understand the full scope of what is going on in the BIG picture.:asian:

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by kenpo3631
I am sure at the more advanced levels of Kenpo (Sub Level 4 stuff)

Don't want to sound stupid, but... what's this sub level 4 you're talking about?

 

[Brother John]

You might want to look up and PM the martial talk member that goes by DOC....
Sublevel4 is his stuff.
Your Brother
John

 

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by Doc
Sir's, the attack is not a "front choke," it is a "front headlock" that has the potential to become a choke. That changes the scenario significantly.

Turning the head INTO the headlock and placing the chin against your clavicle will preclude the choke. Then you have time to work the "headlock" counter should you have a mechanism.

Should you turn your head away from the headlock, you complete the "lock" and will be unable to move forward as the technique suggests without snapping your own neck.

Ok, I'm definitely confused here. I also train for completed locks and I have never heard of turning your throat INTO a choke, aren't you handing them the choke by not turning away? Like I said before they can't exactly choke the back of your neck right?I'm just a beginner here so I'm not trying to sound like I know it all or anything, I think I'm probably not understanding here.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by kenpo3631
I am sure at the more advanced levels of Kenpo (Sub Level 4 stuff) you will learn how to do this and I am sure it is a worth while endeavor. As far as doing the aforementioned techniques, I was always taught that the technique needs to be done before the lock is fully applied, I have even attended seminars where Mr. Parker himself made that statement. Again I understand that there is more to Kenpo than what is taught at one seminar however for the majority of students, this methodology makes the most sense to translate the motion idea that is being conveyed.



I don't think that people feel that this stuff isn't taught in the system of Parker Kenpo just that many instructors don't have the knowledge or have only touched upon the subject of Sub Level 4 with Parker before his untimely death. Also many students including the black belts have their hands full learning the theories and concepts to get them to their particular goals. Just because a person has one understanding of the art doesn't make it incorrect, just different. Only through practice and analytical study of the art can one become proficient and understand the full scope of what is going on in the BIG picture.:asian:

Of course you're absolutely correct, (as you ususally are), and that was what I was saying. But you also reflect the general consensus of "react before you're grabbed" at that level of training, which I also said.

I only mean to remind some that what they have learned may only be the beginning. And more importantly, additional knowledge is not "self discoverable." A study of "motion" may yield new perspectives of old conceptual information, but will not produce new real knowledge. A person MUST be taught, and I think that is a given outside of commercial applications of the martial arts in the real world.

Let's not do a dis-service to Mr. Parker and think Infinite Insights and his other books are the totality of his American Kenpo. They are only a drop in the bucket of this man's knowledge and abilities. That is why you (generic) can't duplicate what he did and the way he did it.

I would rather people seek "teachers" of any art than to sit on what they have so far and feel they can "find" the rest for themselves. It is just not possible anymore than you can teach yourself advanced mathmatics because you know how to add, subtract, and divide.

We must continue to concentrate on the empty portion of our cups, and not the filled.

Ed Parker used to say 99% don't even have a cup.

I also do not want to give anyone the impression that SubLevel Four is the ultimate answer or the only "advanced Kenpo." It is only one of many perspectives and all instructors and interpretations must be evaluated according to an individuals personal needs, and/or desires in study and training and seek the level that satisfies them.

The term itself, "SubLevel Four Kenpo," was created by me based on a phrase Ed Parker used in my teaching. I am not saying he called it that. Also it is not really my mission to promote SL-4, only to promote a more specific and knowledgeable thought process that benefits all in Kenpo as Ed Parker wanted.

Oh and one other thing, (not that it matters) but Ed Parker was a serious Raider Fan. He liked the idea they wore "black" and had that "rebel" image in football just like he had in the arts. But as much of an innnovator as he was challenging convention, underneath he was a "traditionalist" once he found what really worked.

 

[Michael Billings]

... and has a hole in the bottom of it. I keep trying to fill it up, but at my age, I also have braincells dying every day.

Thanks for being more specific about the attack. I have always gone under the neck with the right, grabbing left with right, but then somehow over the years, I started snaking the left arm over the back of the opponent's neck, almost an inverted sleeper attack, that could easily turn into a neck break or choke. The degree of lethality went up because it was no longer a lock, rather a choke, and the necessary response time got much shorter, hence the execution of the technique as soon as you feel the arms circling the throat. And yes I do it after I am locked up also, tucking the chin to protect the airway ... but still scary if someone is cranking on the neck the way I encourage them to do. Will try the variation you described next class.

Yee-Haaaaaaa!!!!

Oss,
-Michel

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Doc
Of course you're absolutely correct, (as you ususally are), and that was what I was saying. But you also reflect the general consensus of "react before you're grabbed" at that level of training, which I also said.

I only mean to remind some that what they have learned may only be the beginning. And more importantly, additional knowledge is not "self discoverable." A study of "motion" may yield new perspectives of old conceptual information, but will not produce new real knowledge. A person MUST be taught, and I think that is a given outside of commercial applications of the martial arts in the real world.

Let's not do a dis-service to Mr. Parker and think Infinite Insights and his other books are the totality of his American Kenpo. They are only a drop in the bucket of this man's knowledge and abilities. That is why you (generic) can't duplicate what he did and the way he did it.

I would rather people seek "teachers" of any art than to sit on what they have so far and feel they can "find" the rest for themselves. It is just not possible anymore than you can teach yourself advanced mathmatics because you know how to add, subtract, and divide.

We must continue to concentrate on the empty portion of our cups, and not the filled.

Ed Parker used to say 99% don't even have a cup.

I also do not want to give anyone the impression that SubLevel Four is the ultimate answer or the only "advanced Kenpo." It is only one of many perspectives and all instructors and interpretations must be evaluated according to an individuals personal needs, and/or desires in study and training and seek the level that satisfies them.

The term itself, "SubLevel Four Kenpo," was created by me based on a phrase Ed Parker used in my teaching. I am not saying he called it that. Also it is not really my mission to promote SL-4, only to promote a more specific and knowledgeable thought process that benefits all in Kenpo as Ed Parker wanted.

Oh and one other thing, (not that it matters) but Ed Parker was a serious Raider Fan. He liked the idea they wore "black" and had that "rebel" image in football just like he had in the arts. But as much of an innnovator as he was challenging convention, underneath he was a "traditionalist" once he found what really worked.

Thank you Mr. Chape'l for the kind words. I've been at this for 17 years ( a drop in the bucket for most) and I am still finding information everytime I read Mr. Parker's books or train with my instructor or go to a seminar. You're right that what we learn is the tip of the iceberg. As a matter of fact I tell people that what I know is just that~the tip of the iceberg. Anyway thanks for sharing your knowledge on this forum with us. It's great food for thought!

PS- I am a Raider fan too... :asian: