Hooking Wings (Front 2 hand low push)

[kenpoworks]

Hey China. Consider one of the major sensors in the autonomic nervous system in PNF is from the wrist down to the hands, and their positions, no matter how slight, have a major impact on our physical capabilities.

Cheers Doc,
I know how it "works" and do appy it to a lot of my techniques, but now you have pointed me towards the "why". Great stuff.
W.R.
Rich

 

[kenpoworks]

I usually teach it against "A Push", unless a student " insists on doing it by the book against a "low push".
The defenses against pushes (I teach) are specific, but not determined by the height of the push.
Rich

 

[Kenpo Mama]

Just a thought here... could the attack for this technique be the response for someone doing Begging Hands on you? You respond with Hooking Wings as the double torquing heel palms approach low on the chest/ribs.

Peace,

Donna

 

[kenpoworks]

Just a thought here... could the attack for this technique be the response for someone doing Begging Hands on you? You respond with Hooking Wings as the double torquing heel palms approach low on the chest/ribs.

Peace,

Donna

Hey Donna,
Yes i see what you mean, that could apply to the ideal version of the technique, if you don't check arms and also the height/depth zones with the snapping ball kick.
But I do think these two hand movements from B.H. & H.W. done in isolation would make a good sensitivity exercise, good call.
W.R.
Rich
ps I dont do really teach the ideal version of Begging Hands either, to many gaps for my liking.

 

[Doc]

Thank you for the reply Doc.

Another question for you. I hope that you don't mind me picking your brain.

1) Do you teach this technique as part of your material?

Yes sir we teach a version of the technique that does not utilize the common understanding of 'hooking, drawing toward you, and moving backwards into a cat stance. Anatomical suicde in the real world of aggressive committed attacks.

2) Am I safe to assume that Hooking Wings is a valid technique to use against a high push?

Yes sir it is, however my experience and teaching suggest for a high pushing attack "Alternating Maces" as I was taught is a better choice.

3) Can this technique be applied against a low tackle, around waist level?

No sir. Any technique where the attacker is specifically utilizig his own mass as the initial weapon against lower portions of your body, requires specific actions to counter the movement and inertia of that mass. This technique would not do that. Mr. Parker says, "His mass will knock you on your ***."

4) What did Master Parker originally intend this technique to be a defense against?

In my opinion Mr. Parker had no hand in the creation of this specifc technique as he did many most are familar with. It simply, in any form, violates to many principles we worked on. However that being said, it doesn't mean a variation adjusted anatomically cannot be used for the proper attack. I utilize it to teach specific principles, but actually this technique in its entirety would be an unlikely chosen repsonse. Portions of it make sense however.

Sidebar: On pointing, reaching, pushing, choking, one or two hand attacks, what your defense options are - are really dependent upon several factors relative to the actions of the atacker. (Notice I never use the word "opponent". Bad news physically) When you understand Proproceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation Sensors impact body structure, you learn to 'read' an attackers posture to determine your viable options of response. By simply looking at the attackers hands, and the shape, position they are in you are able to make a determination of what his intent is, and the state of his physical readiness positive and negative. You simply attack the problem at his negative. And that is what should determine your response as I was taught and learned.

 

[Doc]

Just a thought here... could the attack for this technique be the response for someone doing Begging Hands on you? You respond with Hooking Wings as the double torquing heel palms approach low on the chest/ribs.

Peace,

Donna

Only is you do begging hands with your palms up falling back, which is a really bad idea.

 

[Doc]

I usually teach it against "A Push", unless a student " insists on doing it by the book against a "low push".
The defenses against pushes (I teach) are specific, but not determined by the height of the push.
Rich

Me Ol China is on to something me thinks. Gotta go. Vivion Spain is in town for lessons this week.

 

[MJS]

Thanks again for the reply.

Yes sir we teach a version of the technique that does not utilize the common understanding of 'hooking, drawing toward you, and moving backwards into a cat stance. Anatomical suicde in the real world of aggressive committed attacks.

Yes, the cat stance does not seem, to me anyway, that you're going to be in balance, if the person is giving you a committed push, which I assume would be the case.

 

[Kenpo Mama]

Only is you do begging hands with your palms up falling back, which is a really bad idea.

I'm sorry Doc I don't understand what you mean by falling back, i would be moving inward toward the attacker with the heel palms at the point that hooking wings would come into play. I am unfamiliar with the way you teach Begging Hands in Sub L 4, but i will search the site and see if you have addressed this before. Thanks for the response.

Peace,

Donna

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Sidebar: On pointing, reaching, pushing, choking, one or two hand attacks, what your defense options are - are really dependent upon several factors relative to the actions of the atacker. (Notice I never use the word "opponent". Bad news physically) When you understand Proproceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation Sensors impact body structure, you learn to 'read' an attackers posture to determine your viable options of response. By simply looking at the attackers hands, and the shape, position they are in you are able to make a determination of what his intent is, and the state of his physical readiness positive and negative. You simply attack the problem at his negative. And that is what should determine your response as I was taught and learned.

Did somebody push your babble button? What the heck are you talkin about!

Regards,

D.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

we like to finish by rebounding off the thigh and slapping a ridge hand into the attacker's groin, like in bow of compulsion.

another fun variant is to replace the upward elbow with a palm to the chin. keep the palm soft to capture the chin and push upward and back to bend the spine backwards. when you've got him nice and stretched out, you'll notice your elbow is just above the sternum. put all your weight into a dropping elbow and you'll definitely ruin his day.

 

[Doc]

Did somebody push your babble button? What the heck are you talkin about!

Regards,

D.

I'll be sure to explain and demonstrate it to you in greater detail when you show up to class.

 

[Doc]

I'm sorry Doc I don't understand what you mean by falling back, i would be moving inward toward the attacker with the heel palms at the point that hooking wings would come into play. I am unfamiliar with the way you teach Begging Hands in Sub L 4, but i will search the site and see if you have addressed this before. Thanks for the response.

Peace,

Donna

Most seem to step backwards into a cat stance to extricate their hands.

 

[kenpoworks]

Me Ol China is on to something me thinks. Gotta go. Vivion Spain is in town for lessons this week.

Well when all you have got is "something" then you have to work it, I hope he has a thoroughly goood time.
W.R.
Rich

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I'll be sure to explain and demonstrate it to you in greater detail when you show up to class.

Note to self: wear hidden padding...lots of it.

 

[IWishToLearn]

Have fun Dave!

 

[HKphooey]

I am 6'7", but on the slimmer side (alright maybe a few xtra lbs. )
So if an attacker that is 5'7" comes in with a push, that is a low push on me.

Next scenerio... You kick your opponent in the groin, he bends over from the pain but it still intent on grabbing or pushing you will on his way down.

One other thing... when executing the hooks, turn them into frictional pulls (adds a little extra something to your kick and sets up the hammer fist strike nicely)

 

[Doc]

I am 6'7", but on the slimmer side (alright maybe a few xtra lbs. )
So if an attacker that is 5'7" comes in with a push, that is a low push on me.

That's a serious stretch to justify a 'low push' technique so you can do "hooking Wings on someone a full foot shorter than you. I don't think so.

Next scenerio... You kick your opponent in the groin, he bends over from the pain but it still intent on grabbing or pushing you will on his way down.

Yeah, do 'Hooking Wings" on someone you've already kicked and on his way to the ground.

One other thing... when executing the hooks, turn them into frictional pulls (adds a little extra something to your kick and sets up the hammer fist strike nicely)

Not likely or very smart to pull someone toward you which denotes arms distance, so you can try an kick them at leg distance. Sorry sir, but none of that makes sense.

But a person determined to do something can always find an excuse to justify his actions. That's how these things survive without scruitiny as it is.

 

[HKphooey]

Just giving the guy some feedabck on his question. Not saying it is fact. I just know that 50% of what I have learned in the dojo over the past 18 years does not apply to someone that is 6'7". Trusted me, I have to slouch down to do parting wings on most attackers. Why bring my head down to someone else level. And I have sparred with some great shorter fighters.

Someone comes at me with a two hand push, I would not waste my time with trying to stop his hands with mine. That is waht my 37" legs are for!

Great posting with you. Discussions bring out all the scenerios. Life and training is about inifite options.

 

[Doc]

Just giving the guy some feedabck on his question. Not saying it is fact. I just know that 50% of what I have learned in the dojo over the past 18 years does not apply to someone that is 6'7". Trusted me, I have to slouch down to do parting wings on most attackers. Why bring my head down to someone else level. And I have sparred with some great shorter fighters.

Someone comes at me with a two hand push, I would not waste my time with trying to stop his hands with mine. That is waht my 37" legs are for!

Great posting with you. Discussions bring out all the scenerios. Life and training is about inifite options.

OK now I get you sir. I like the way you think.