OP
- Thread Starter
- #61
You won't need to do that. All I have is a technique descrprition.
Locking Horns
- Thread starter jfarnsworth
- Start date
You won't need to do that. All I have is a technique descrprition.
kenpo_cory
Purple Belt
Thank you Mr. Chapel, your knowledge is invaluable. :asian:
GaryM
Green Belt
Hi, just like to give my thoughts on the subject. A front headlock is basically done this way. You grab the guys head and hug it to your chest with both arms (I am going to assume that you know the position if you are familiar with the technique we are discussing) and then you stand up thrusting your hips forward to break the neck. So if your in a headlock from this position there is NO time to spare. The strike to the groin and the leg stops this 'stand up thrust hips forward' and the pain, weakness, shock, combined with the step forward breaks the lock. Yes a guilloteen choke is possible from this but the real danger is a neck break that can happen instantly from the lock. The motion to apply the choke is the same (stand up, thrust hips), and the technique is the same ( I agree, turn head towards opening) and the action of thrusting your arms forward for the strikes kind of makes like a 'turtle' and sucks your head in the shell a bit. As to wrist locks: In a wrist lock your opponent is pushing the back of the hand and using the wrist as a fulcrum. To defeat this the fulcrum becomes an 'axel' and the elbow comes up to the opponent's jaw and allows the hand to rotate in the direction of the lock thus relieving the pressure. ( as in Twisted Twig) So what if lhe lock is more successful and you are being taken 'over the falls' as in the technique twisted rod. Push toward the direction of the throw. The move looks something like this. You are standing about eight feet away from a table and see a glass rolling off the edge, you take a giant step into a long low neutral bow and stretch your hand out palm up to catch the glass. Looks like one of those kung-fu stances eh? If the opponent is turning to make the throw (he will be) you have a nice little kidney shot. The guy I learned this from would then reverse from this and come right back on his opponent with the identical wrist lock throw, but the opponent was turned so that he couldn't step out and push out of it. I don't know how he made the transition to the lock, he was one of those 'see how great my system is' not one of the 'this is how to do this' types, and I was on the wrong side of the room to see the transition. As for the sub level four stuff I have seen a bit of it and I feel that it is basically blending the principals of Prof. Wally Jay's small circle jujitsu into the kenpo. I highly recommend his tapes. I hope I don't sound like an arrogant knowitall jerk. I definantly don't knowitall. Gary
Doc
Senior Master
Sir, where did you see SubLevel Four and whom was demonstrating it?
GaryM
Green Belt
Johnny Rodrigues' studio in Salt Lake and It was Mr Jeff Speakman doing the demo.
Doc
Senior Master
Jeff Speakman is not qualified to speak or demonstrate an understanding of SubLevel Four Kenpo.
GaryM
Green Belt
Hi again. Ok, if you say that Mr. Speakman is not qualified to teach the sub level four I won't argue, its not my affair. I made a rather sweeping statement I suppose reguarding the sub level 4 so let me stick my foot in my mouth even further if you will. I have been incorporating the small circle principals into my Kenpo , I feel that it is ideal for the Kenpo because it is basically grappling that places the opponent on the ground and controls him without you going to the ground. Of course there is much more to it than that, it really explains the locking and the 'feel' or flow. I am also incorporating the principals of Dim Mak into the Kenpo. They are already there for the most part, but Earl Montagues material certainly gives a deeper understanding to the art. So what am I missing? Please give me an example of a sub level four technique , or principal, or just an insite that will make me go 'Oh Wow, I never realized that before! I don't want to be confrontational in the slightest. If you really have something that is so new and different I darn sure want to know more about it. If it is basically contained in the material I mentioned then cool, I'm on the right track! By the way it is said that it takes three lifetimes to learn the Dim Mak but I'm a quick learner and I think I can learn it in two. (ok maybe two and a half) Gary
Doc
Senior Master
Earls stuff is intellectually correct and quite technically informative, but when in comes to actual application, that's a different story because information is omitted or unknown by him. SL-4 has specific "Kenpo parameters" dictated by Ed Parker to me that does not conform to any other art.
As an example most of the Small Circle Jiu-jitsu techniques from Wally Jay follow a basic tenant of most jiu-jitsu styles, it's pain reliant. Ed Parker dictated "SubLevel Four" use of manipulations and control NOT be dependent on pain for function. If pain is the only thing controlling your opponent, than the technique ultimately will fail.
As far as "nerve activations" I have never seen anyone speak in terms of "Negative/Positive Body Posture that is paramount in my own study from the old Chinese and Ed Parker.
Nor do they take into consideration that all the charts and graphs that map meridians and cavities are designed from a supine position and "healing" perspective. Cavities move, shift, open and close depending on many factors. A martial or combat perspective changes and requires a completely different interpretation.
Structural Integrity is also at the root of all movement and the methodologies that create it or destroy it in SubLevel Four.
Those who have come to see me find some interesting perspepctives to information they felt they already knew.
You are doing what most do. You are seeking to "fill holes" or gaps in your Kenpo through exploration of other material. A commendable mindset I must say, but all the examples you gave are physically superficial. SubLevel Four is much more than that and is not a physical description but is an inclusive process of study. You cannot add something to flawed material, you must build solid from the beginning if you expect long term gains and to reach the highest level. Your statement regarding "adding" something to your kenpo tells the tale.
That being said I am sure you're doing the best you can, and hopeffully being effective. If you are than that's all that matters. But yes there is much, much, much more.
GaryM
Green Belt
Now you have me interested! Do you have any literature or tapes available? Or do you have any plans on doing a seminar somewhere near me anytime? I live in Salt Lake and unless I become independently wealthy lessons or travel is out of the question. Thanks , Gary
Doc
Senior Master
What is your American Kenpo lineage.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #71
Dr. Chapel. I was wondering if you were going to be in Columbus any time this year?
Doc
Senior Master
I have no plans in the works for Ohio or Utah this year as of now. It would be nice to return to both. The last time I was there I was well received.
I'm so crazy (according to Rainman), they don't invite me to camps anymore. Students come away with too many questions that their instructors don't/won't address.
One of my outreach guys is Andrew King in Columbus. [email protected]
GaryM
Green Belt
My instructor is Sammy Torres, he was taught by Johnny Rodrigues, who was taught by Tony Martines Sr. who was taught by Dale Pettit and Mills Crenshaw who were taught by Mr Parker. Sammy was full contact PKA before he studied Kenpo and 'retired' Charlie Uliberry who was going to come out of retirement but decided against it when he lost an exhibition to Sammy when Sam was only a brown belt. Sammy was trained in full contact by the Galegos bros. He is my son in law and we lived together for 5 years. Oh by the way I noticed that my profile says I'm a white belt. Didn't mean to decieve anyone I thought I filled in the right blanks, guess not. I'm 2nd black. Note of interest I believe that Mr. Parker died on returning from promoting Tony Martines to 5th black. Gary
Doc
Senior Master
Your profile says 2nd black. Sounds like an interesting lineage. Mills Crenshaw is a name I haven't seen in a while.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #75
It was my loss that when you were in Columbus that I had conflicting events and couldn't make it. There were a few of the people from the studio that went and had said it was a great seminar you put on as well as they would return when you were back in town.
Doc
Senior Master
Originally posted by jfarnsworth
It was my loss that when you were in Columbus that I had conflicting events and couldn't make it. There were a few of the people from the studio that went and had said it was a great seminar you put on as well as they would return when you were back in town.
Nope! My loss anytime I miss the opportunity to talk and physically interact with someone who is seeking honest answers to honest questions.
Doc,
You need to throw a camp somewhere.
Since people are hesitant to have you come out, but you have a few people in every state trying to get to you, you should throw your own camp or seminar.
I think you should consider trying to have a seminar one weekend at your studio (like the Alamo Kenpo Clinic) or at a hotel in your area.
Then we wouldn't have to find a way to get you out to 8 cities in a year.
Have you thought of this? The Alamo Clinic looks like a good idea in that it is held at their school. I'm looking forward to going.
Just a thought. Set something up. Tell the world. See if you build it, will they come? I think it might help if you find some weekend where a large "tourist" event is happening and have your seminar that weekend.
I can't think of a good example, but Saturday/Saturday night in San Diego before the Superbowl for example. How many kenpo people are going to the Superbowl? Would 50-100 of them get there a day early for a seminar with you? This is an extreme example, but I think I made my point.
Tell us what you think.
ikenpo
Black Belt
Doug,
Let me tell you why this won't happen. Or why I believe this won't happen. Doc's program is based on an "university" model. I don't think he has any interest in making the transition to the "camp" model (at this point). It is fine to bring him down, in that case the EPI isn't sponsoring the program, so there isn't any implied proficiency transmitted during their presentation of information. When he teaches to "others" it is much like a thesis presentation that he is defending. He'll give you as much as he thinks your ready for, and then a little more. My personal suggestion would be to call him up or email him and ask if you may come down for a long weekend and train with him. You'll learn a lot more one on one and he might even take you to Universal Studios to catch a bench and "watch the sights" or have you eat at a Chinese takeout place he and SGM used to hit up. When folks read this their immediate though will be, "OMG, how much is that gonna cost?", that just means you don't know Doc.
That is my very personal opinion.
jb:asian:
That would be Cool!
Right after I win the lottery, my plans including going to Pasadena for a month or two to visit Mr. White, Trejo, Chapel, Hawkins, etc for a week each so rest assured I would look forward to this.
:boing1:
K
Kirk
Guest
LOL, same here. If I hit the lottery I will make my pilgrimage to
"Kenpo Mecca". Via Arizona to visit the Golden Dragon, of course.
