Glancing Salute,

[Doc]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Doc,

I agree with some of what you said, particularly the idea that SGM Parker didn't create this apparently old chinese concept. I found an interesting article that gives another perspective on what SL-4 calls "slap checking".

http://www.eurekainternalarts.com/publications/news2.html

One question I have that probably isn't for this forum is in the realm of "Slap-check Theory" how many different versions of slap checks are there? Have you defined them by purpose and application? Both good and bad? Being the researcher you are I'm guessing the answer is yes. Have you written any academic text on the subject beyond the surface stuff that you'd be willing to share?

jb:asian:

Yes I have identified more than a dozen. Some are physically pretty obvious like contributions to "Directional Harmony," whereas others are more intrinsically internal energy based applications. And of course they can manifest themselves positive or negative, with regard to you or your opponent. So the number of applications can grow significantly.

I have been writing on the subject quite a bit, but it is more difficult when it comes to the internal. Black Belt asked for an article but making it "make sense" is not easy in pragmatic terms.

The Chinese would use flowery language metaphors to describe what is difficult to write otherwise, and now I see "why." "The Crane unleashes an exploding wing" sounds great but what does it mean? It is indeed difficult to codify why a backfist snycronous with an attendent "slapcheck" on the appropriate part of the body creates an "energy surge" that magnifies its effectiveness. Or why a "slapcheck" on the wrong part of your body can have such a disruptive effect on your own energy and make you susceptible to your opponents offensive strikes.

I am still writing and although some applications are difficult to describe in terms of physics, there is no denying it is real and quite effective in proper application. But like everything else, it is "situationally dedicated" making verbalization difficult and demonstrations paramount.

This is also why I say the knowledge is almost non-existent. The Chinese didn't really pass it to anyone but "family" and even then it was difficult. The fact it didn't survive outside the Chinese Culture in other martial arts is not surprizing. All they ever passed was the "Busbishi" which outlined the Five element Theory or Dim Mak, but never gave any additional clues as to "how." The index of certain information was hidden in Okinawa Kata but real applcations were not included.

Ed Parker emphasized the "how" over the "why." (Which he was still working on) He would say, "which one is more important?" If you spent all your time on trying to understand "why" something exists and function, you would have no time left to learn "how."

He said, "You can't learn to be the scholar and warrior at the same time." (That is an anomoly he himself created in motion based kenpo.) "Everyone talks about 'why' but very few can actually teach you 'how.' They've got it backwards" because they never learned 'how' themselves.

That was an interesting article and I noticed he too had to resort to metaphors and subjective language. Something I dislike. I like firm definitions, and I guess that's why Im still working on that one. But at least I know I can show you "how."

We had an exam today and we have three new green belts who passed their course. Man they were awesome, and the body mechanics exhibited were exemplary. One over forty, and the other well over fifty.

The truth is in you, but somebody has got to teach it. You can't find it on your own.

Thanks JB. Intelligent, thought provoking, and informative as usual.

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Doc
Yes I have identified more than a dozen. Some are physically pretty obvious like contributions to "Directional Harmony," whereas others are more intrinsically internal energy based applications.

Black Belt asked for an article but making it "make sense" is not easy in pragmatic terms.

It is indeed difficult to codify why a backfist snycronous with an attendent "slapcheck" on the appropriate part of the body creates an "energy surge" that magnifies its effectiveness. Or why a "slapcheck" on the wrong part of your body can have such a disruptive effect on your own energy and make you susceptible to your opponents offensive strikes.

I am still writing and although some applications are difficult to describe in terms of physics, there is no denying it is real and quite effective in proper application. But like everything else, it is "situationally dedicated" making verbalization difficult and demonstrations paramount.

The index of certain information was hidden in Okinawa Kata but real applcations were not included.

Ed Parker emphasized the "how" over the "why." (Which he was still working on) He would say, "which one is more important?" If you spent all your time on trying to understand "why" something exists and function, you would have no time left to learn "how."

He said, "You can't learn to be the scholar and warrior at the same time." (That is an anomoly he himself created in motion based kenpo.) "Everyone talks about 'why' but very few can actually teach you 'how.' They've got it backwards" because they never learned 'how' themselves.

That was an interesting article and I noticed he too had to resort to metaphors and subjective language. Something I dislike. I like firm definitions, and I guess that's why Im still working on that one. But at least I know I can show you "how."

The truth is in you, but somebody has got to teach it. You can't find it on your own.

Thanks JB. Intelligent, thought provoking, and informative as usual.

Doc,

Most wouldn't have bothered to say they had "identified more than..." they would just say ancient chinese secret or gotta pay to play (and probably not really know themselves). I've always appreciated that about you..If you ever do figure out a way to convey the various applications of "slapcheck theory" into words I'd be very interested in reading it.

jb:asian:

p.s. Got a reply email from Marty M. the other day. He has really done really well for himself in the business world, executive VP and co-founder. That balance is a hard thing to achieve (still working on it), most (not all) just focus on one of the other with amazing, disasterous or mediocre results. I always thought he was very good at the SL-4 system based on what I saw on video and our one meeting. Maybe he'll come back to active training one day...

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Doc,

Most wouldn't have bothered to say they had "identified more than..." they would just say ancient chinese secret or gotta pay to play (and probably not really know themselves). I've always appreciated that about you..If you ever do figure out a way to convey the various applications of "slapcheck theory" into words I'd be very interested in reading it.

jb:asian:

p.s. Got a reply email from Marty M. the other day. He has really done really well for himself in the business world, executive VP and co-founder. That balance is a hard thing to achieve (still working on it), most (not all) just focus on one of the other with amazing, disasterous or mediocre results. I always thought he was very good at the SL-4 system based on what I saw on video and our one meeting. Maybe he'll come back to active training one day...

For sure.

Yeah I miss Marty, but that is the price you pay when your students are well educated grounded and purposeful people. Some move on because of business and more important life goals that take them geographically from you. If he was still here, he'd still be in the thick of it.

My one conselation is, my students never go to another teacher. They either quit altogether or eventually come back to me.

 

[teej]

Doc, you posted;

ATTACK: 12:00. Take two steps. First with your left as you approach and then step forward with your right foot and forcibly push with your right hand across to their right shoulder. Be sure the push is “committed” transferring your weight to your front foot in anticipation of overcoming the significant resistance of their body mass.

1. Standing naturally, when your opponent pushes your right shoulder with his right hand. SURVIVE THE INITIAL ASSAULT ™ (The force of his push will turn your right shoulder, misalign your hips and cause your right foot to step rearward to regain your balance.

A very interesting perspective. The majority of posts I read here have the standard being taught of stepping forward with the left leg. I was taught the same way. The difference seems to be the intent of the attacker. If your attacker really steps in with intent and follow through, if you are able to step forward, (again the attacker stepped in hard, fast causing his arm to push past you as you pivot) your step forward would probably put you too far up his arm or past it to execute the forearm strike?

Anyway, Doc my question to you is this with the same type of attack with intent that you described, how would that affect Triggered Salute? If the attacker attacks the same way you described, 2 steps really hitting you with his push, but with a straight shoulder push, were you taught to step forward with your right or back with your left to do Triggered Salute? If I follow your previous thinking correctly, you probably step back with your left.

thanks, yours in Kenpo,
Teej

 

[8253]

instead of striking the opponents elbow with an elbow, maybe a palm heel to the elbow. From there his right foot will probably be forward, personally i believe from there a quick snap kick to the front of the knee should effectively diffuse the problem.

 

[teej]

I for one do not teach striking the elbow with an elbow. It may work, but it may also slip or glance up & off. The greater margin for error is to strike at or above the elbow with a left forearm strike. (think of your forearm as an iron bar striking. you have atleast a 12" potential striking surface as opposed to a 1" elbow area]

Kicking the front knee? Well there are many possibilities for defusing the problem. However; this is a standard technique taught in the "ideal phase". The technique is taught in a specific way so the instructor can teach the student specific principles as well as disguised repitition. The technique is just a tool for the instructor to use to teach. It may certainly work the way it is taught. The various ways to effectively diffuse the problem are learned by learning the techniques, but more importantly by your spontaneous drills where you most certainly can kick the front knee if you find yourself in position to do that.

Teej

 

[8253]

as far as the techniques go they are just a guide to proper movement. it is the adaptations that is what get the job done. as far as kicking the knee in front of you, it doesent go just for knees. It goes for anything that is in front of you that you can disable as quickly as possible. That was just one of the many variations that can work.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I don't think that the point is simply to disable, "whatever's in front of you," as quickly as possible. In fact, there are lots of times in which doing that will get you into more trouble--for example, kicking that front leg in response to a right push could quite easily bring the opponent's left hand and foot forward.

One way of handling this might be to make some decisions about the kind of kick. Another might be to check that knee as you step in...as per the "ideal," technique," before anything else.

 

[8253]

how about this :btg:

 

[8253]

WooooHooooo Kick'em in the nads

 

[sumdumguy]

Here in lye's one of the great problems in Kenpo today. People are to quick to just change tech's for the purpose of immediate results, rather than study the concepts and theory of the technique to better understand what is really supposed to happen, thereby making execution of the technique even more effective.
Zone cancellation through the (proper) use of a geometrical path executed to the opponents elbow coupled with the left leg knee check to the opponent's right leg. Zone cancellation is further compounded with the left arm anchoring while pulling (inside shape of the crane) the opponent's right arm back on a 7 plane and simultaneously executing the palm heel strike to the chin... cont......
These simple concepts allow for total dominance of an opponent not the opportunity for a left punch or follow up anything. What if is good, but keep it in the what if realm of the system. Ideal execution and practice of the base system is important for beginners to start to grasp the concepts of said system.
Just my opinion.... :asian:

 

[8253]

As i have said in the past techniques are just guidelines. No opponent will react the exact way the a technique is practiced. You must study the variables or you will stick yourself in a pattern that will cause you to become predictable. As far as a fight goes every time you move your opponent counters untill he sees an opening, therefore i belive that instead of a check or something along that line it is better to break the arm or the leg to effectively incapacitate your opponent from being able to successfully countering your movements.

 

[Michael Billings]

Here in lye's one of the great problems in Kenpo today. People are to quick to just change tech's for the purpose of immediate results, rather than study the concepts and theory of the technique to better understand what is really supposed to happen, thereby making execution of the technique even more effective.
Zone cancellation through the (proper) use of a geometrical path executed to the opponents elbow coupled with the left leg knee check to the opponent's right leg. Zone cancellation is further compounded with the left arm anchoring while pulling (inside shape of the crane) the opponent's right arm back on a 7 plane and simultaneously executing the palm heel strike to the chin... cont......
These simple concepts allow for total dominance of an opponent not the opportunity for a left punch or follow up anything. What if is good, but keep it in the what if realm of the system. Ideal execution and practice of the base system is important for beginners to start to grasp the concepts of said system.
Just my opinion.... :asian:

What he said!

-Michael

 

[sumdumguy]

As i have said in the past techniques are just guidelines. No opponent will react the exact way the a technique is practiced. You must study the variables or you will stick yourself in a pattern that will cause you to become predictable. As far as a fight goes every time you move your opponent counters untill he sees an opening, therefore i belive that instead of a check or something along that line it is better to break the arm or the leg to effectively incapacitate your opponent from being able to successfully countering your movements.

Gee I never thought of that.....

 

[Rainman]

As i have said in the past techniques are just guidelines. No opponent will react the exact way the a technique is practiced. You must study the variables or you will stick yourself in a pattern that will cause you to become predictable. As far as a fight goes every time you move your opponent counters untill he sees an opening, therefore i belive that instead of a check or something along that line it is better to break the arm or the leg to effectively incapacitate your opponent from being able to successfully countering your movements.

This is another misconception... when the target is struck with pin point accuracy, and on the plane that dictates cancellation for that target, you begin the process of zone cancellation. Coupled with timing you remove the ability for an opponent to counter- This is not easy and neither is AK... However if you are not able to use these tools, it might be wise to go through your material and find out what links are missing...

Techniques are more like working models to explore- variables are diminished when zones are cancelled. Here is the real what if= what if you didn't cancel the zone? then you have variables to contend with. So yes, to error is human and is always smart to prepare for the worst case scenario... But also study for dominance, it is the American way.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Nope, the point is not to simply break whatever's in front of you: it's to remove the attacker's ability to keep attacking. Obviously, if this means walking away or talking the guy out of it, that's what you try first.

More specifically, the stuff mentioned about "zone cancellation," is quite right; another way to put it is that you are trying to eliminate the opponent's ability to turn toward you, in any dimension of height, width, or depth.

Another of the current problems with kenpo appears in the proliferation of unnecessarily obscure, in-group language such as (sorry in advance), "geometrical path executed to the...elbow."

In the first place, one doesn't execute a geometrical path: a "geometrical path," unless the language shifted on me late last night, is the trajectory a strike, block, parry, etc. takes. You execute a kick along a chosen path, in other words.

Moreover, I'm afraid that I don't agree that martial arts are simply about, "dominance," or that dominaance is somehow, "the American way."

As your skill and ability increases, I'd thought, we were supposed to learn to do more than just bust the other guy up, especially when not absolutely necessary. Of course, I'm not there yet...

 

[pete]

Of course, I'm not there yet... rmcrobertson

it sounds as if you may be closer than you think, or at least facing the right direction with the wind at your back~

pete

 

[Rainman]

Nope, the point is not to simply break whatever's in front of you: it's to remove the attacker's ability to keep attacking. Obviously, if this means walking away or talking the guy out of it, that's what you try first.

More specifically, the stuff mentioned about "zone cancellation," is quite right; another way to put it is that you are trying to eliminate the opponent's ability to turn toward you, in any dimension of height, width, or depth.

Another of the current problems with kenpo appears in the proliferation of unnecessarily obscure, in-group language such as (sorry in advance), "geometrical path executed to the...elbow."

In the first place, one doesn't execute a geometrical path: a "geometrical path," unless the language shifted on me late last night, is the trajectory a strike, block, parry, etc. takes. You execute a kick along a chosen path, in other words.

Moreover, I'm afraid that I don't agree that martial arts are simply about, "dominance," or that dominaance is somehow, "the American way."

As your skill and ability increases, I'd thought, we were supposed to learn to do more than just bust the other guy up, especially when not absolutely necessary. Of course, I'm not there yet...

Go to a seminar and learn the material- other than that I don't see how any of your comments can be taken seriously... I am afraid your commments are irrelevant to us as you are a prime example of the "whys" that don't exist in the commercial product.

Absurd statements such as "a good technique line is the heart of the art", "circles are flat", and trying to reinterpret the fact that dominance in a combat situation is paramount begs the question... If you are not there yet, how do you know it all?

Good day sir, I will not be responding to you again because I find no value in doing so.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Dear Rainman:

I am sorry, but I still don't agree with some elements of what was previously posted. And I'm a little confused by your response, inasmuch as I largely--though not entirely--agreed with your postings on this thread.

As for your suggestion that I attend more seminars, sorry, I haven't the time. Fortunately, I'm still studying in a place (though not often enough, in my opinion) that pretty much guarantees learning properly. I am sorry that your attempts at bullying are not working in my direction, so that I continue to express different ideas than yours.

On serious matters, I continue to argue that the point isn't simply to smash whatever's in front of you. Though I certainly understand the impulse, and I agree that at certain stages of training this is essential, I don't buy some of the readings of, "Glancing Salute," I've read below.

 

[Touch Of Death]

*Mod Warning*
Please keep your comments polite and respectfull. :asian: