Locking Horns-Front Headlock

[JenniM]

I'm stuck on this, will wait for further instruction

Hey James, great thread!!!! - saw our Instructor by chance today :wink: !! think he may be able to help us out with this on Friday night in class - see you there:asian:

 

[Doc]

You are right a forward bow would be impossible but a lowered forward bow (close kneel stance) would be the appropriate stance.

Incorrect sir. Not structurally supportable in this circumstance under load primarily due to the position/posture of the pelvic bone, relative to the indexed head, and weight distribution. No way.

Establishing a base is very important, you are not going to be in a picture perfect stance as the technique is executed because in all stances we are told to keep our back straight.

When you say 'we,' I presume you mean your instruction?

In this paticular technique we are bent at the waist so any stance that we go into is only to stabilize.

?

So I guess this would be a close kneel only from the waist down.

May I suggest that 'stances' quite properly include upper body postures in advanced applications and descriptions sir.

 

[Doc]

Locking Horns used to be one of my least favorite techniques. But then I visited a school in Colorado where they didn't just check the attacker's right leg above then knee with the left hand---IF you can, then blast {at or above} the knee (instead of check it) as you step, then you can lock the knee joint and send the attacker backwards towards 12:00. There were a couple other minor varations to what I had learned (and I learned it pretty much like MJS's description) but I don't recall them. I think they were affiliated with Mr. Pick's organization.

Now, for me, it's not such a gosh awful technique.

interesting sir.

 

[Doc]

things that do not work for one, may work for another).

May I suggest sir, that when you utilize proper mechanics ultimately everything works on everyone. The idea of abandoning something that 'doesn't work for you' is a commerical business concept to keep students from getting board. Old school would suggest you work the principle until you learn to make it work. The reason for this is, no principle in the real arts/sciences is isolated and will always resurface at another level. they are all foundational material to higher understanding and execution. Consider learning your 'ABC's" but having trouble with learning the vowels. Wht wld tht d d t r ftr lngg nd th blt t cmmnct? (What would that do to your future ability to communicate?) The commercialality of the arts in general, and kenpo in particular put forth this 'tailoring' philosophy to make students responsible for their own inadequacies in persuit of quick self-defense skills. The problem comes when they realize you cannot get to higher knowledge or skill this way, but you've advanced to teaching. The other problem is when you have high rank in the 'shortcut' method, and don't want to admit you don't know anything and swear its the best thing since sliced bread.

 

[JamesB]

Hey James, great thread!!!! - saw our Instructor by chance today :wink: !! think he may be able to help us out with this on Friday night in class - see you there:asian:

Hey Jenni, looking forward to it, seeyou friday!

 

[Doc]

Hey Jenni, looking forward to it, seeyou friday!

Hey sweetie, how are you? Much work to be done on this technique. I haven'tgotten deep into it quite yet. More mechanisms to come, but the good news is Kevin can and will make it work. You know him don't you? and - "I ani't mad at ya."

 

[JenniM]

Hey sweetie, how are you? Much work to be done on this technique. I haven'tgotten deep into it quite yet. More mechanisms to come, but the good news is Kevin can and will make it work. You know him don't you? and - "I ani't mad at ya."

Hi Doc!! I'm good thankyou. Definitely sounds like one to work on which I'm looking forward to - I think I know who you're talking about ;-) - he should be over to you again later this year - we had a great time in Holland btw - it was good to see Ryan again, we did some great Kenpo and had a lot of fun - missing you though, nearly forgot what you look like ;-) but "I ain't mad at ya either"! x x

 

[JamesB]

ok I more thoughts on this after reading the other poster's comments:

In my initial response I wondered if using the palm of the hand might be dangerous due to a possible knee coming your way...I think now that due to the way the headlock is being applied (with the attacker's arms tight around your head) that he won't be able to knee (arms in the way), and in fact wont be considering this just because of the hold he is using.

So in order to establish a stable base your own arm(s?) could be used not only to check the attacker's leg against the ground, but also allow you to brace yourself against the attacker's own body? not sure exactly where on the leg you'd want to go for (I check above the knee and judging by other posters this seems consistent). So with a single checking action you misalign the attacker's hips but also brace yourself off his own body-structure and prevent him taking you further down?

looked at my notes and it does say use a widekneel..

thoughts anyone?

 

[kenposikh]

ok I more thoughts on this after reading the other poster's comments:

In my initial response I wondered if using the palm of the hand might be dangerous due to a possible knee coming your way...I think now that due to the way the headlock is being applied (with the attacker's arms tight around your head) that he won't be able to knee (arms in the way), and in fact wont be considering this just because of the hold he is using.

So in order to establish a stable base your own arm(s?) could be used not only to check the attacker's leg against the ground, but also allow you to brace yourself against the attacker's own body? not sure exactly where on the leg you'd want to go for (I check above the knee and judging by other posters this seems consistent). So with a single checking action you misalign the attacker's hips but also brace yourself off his own body-structure and prevent him taking you further down?

looked at my notes and it does say use a widekneel..

thoughts anyone?

Hi James,

I have only touched on this with my instuctor and I can tell you there are quite a lot of mechanisms to put into play but when they are there it sure is effective.

Hopefully see you Friday, I should be well rested I hope. I am going into hospital thursday evening for an overnight stay my sleep study finally came through. It's nice to know someone is interested in how I sleep 4 hours is more than enough isn't it.

 

[Ray]

In my initial response I wondered if using the palm of the hand might be dangerous due to a possible knee coming your way...I think now that due to the way the headlock is being applied (with the attacker's arms tight around your head) that he won't be able to knee (arms in the way), and in fact wont be considering this just because of the hold he is using.

I assume the palm you mention is the check to the attacker's knee. You might try a left handsword (palm down, fingers pointing towards 3:00). Strike in a downward/forward direction to keep the attacker's foot on the ground (more forward than downward, though). Strike just above the knee and strike as you step forward.

 

[AvPKenpo]

Incorrect sir. Not structurally supportable in this circumstance under load primarily due to the position/posture of the pelvic bone, relative to the indexed head, and weight distribution.

To clarify for everyone here (myself included) what is your definition of indexes? I want to make sure that we are understanding each other. (this way we can continue on in our playful banter ).
To clarify my statement better: Whether you go to a close kneel or a wide kneel, the point being you need to regain control of the situation. Pain is a Check. If you nail this attacker in the groin the stances will be a lot easier to accomplish.
A lot of what we discuss here is transitory anyways, would you agree?
I enjoy everyones points and ideas, lets keep it rolling.
From a Warrior to Scholars
Michael

 

[Doc]

I assume the palm you mention is the check to the attacker's knee. You might try a left handsword (palm down, fingers pointing towards 3:00). Strike in a downward/forward direction to keep the attacker's foot on the ground (more forward than downward, though). Strike just above the knee and strike as you step forward.

I got my eyes on you Ray.

 

[Michael Billings]

Ray is on the right track. Now if you combine this with some knowledge of the pressure points on the inside of the leg and the direction they need to be struck, combine this with knowledge of "how" you strike them and you ensure that the leg will buckle out, relieving some, if not all of the load. Everything else should follow. The wide kneel not only establishes the base you need, but also ensures alignment, appropriate depth of action, gravitational marriage, and rotation for the strike to the inside of the leg.

But then uppercuts repeatedly to the testicles, pubic bone, or bladder - until they are a bowl full of jelly could work also, contingent on their attack.

-Michael

 

[TChase]

Locking Horns used to be one of my least favorite techniques. But then I visited a school in Colorado where they didn't just check the attacker's right leg above then knee with the left hand---IF you can, then blast {at or above} the knee (instead of check it) as you step, then you can lock the knee joint and send the attacker backwards towards 12:00. There were a couple other minor varations to what I had learned (and I learned it pretty much like MJS's description) but I don't recall them. I think they were affiliated with Mr. Pick's organization.

Now, for me, it's not such a gosh awful technique.

You're correct sir...attacking the knee and locking the leg out is part of how we do it but there are some fundamental differences to how the technique is described in the first post.

 

[Doc]

To clarify for everyone here (myself included) what is your definition of indexes?

BODY INDEX TRAINING (B.I.T.) – Called “BIT Training.” In SubLevel Four Kenpo, it is the use of anatomical “Index points” of all articulated appendages to facilitate rapid acquisition of correct anatomical body mechanics and postures in the beginning stages of learning. Additionally, these index points correspond to Grappling Control Mechanism postures that facilitate obstructive dominance of depth over an attacker’s forward pressure and load.

Whether you go to a close kneel or a wide kneel, the point being you need to regain control of the situation.

you're missing the point sir. A successful functional close kneeel is NOT possible under these circumstances, and cannot be ignored.

Pain is a Check.

No it isn't. Pain is an irritant in various degrees to individuals predicated on a multitude of circumstances.

If you nail this attacker in the groin the stances will be a lot easier to accomplish.

You would appear sir to be putting the cart before the horse. Without an established structural base, the opportunity to strike anything will not be possible. The number one priority in this circumstance is to Survive the Initial Assault. If you do not, you will find yourself choked, strangled, locked, or pinned to the ground, or all of the above.

 

[AvPKenpo]

you're missing the point sir. A successful functional close kneeel is NOT possible under these circumstances, and cannot be ignored.

After going over this technique more deeply I am sticking to my Close Kneel on this defense.

The number one priority in this circumstance is to Survive the Initial Assault. If you do not, you will find yourself choked, strangled, locked, or pinned to the ground, or all of the above.

At least we agree on this.:asian:

From a Warrior to a scholar -- Michael

 

[Doc]

After going over this technique more deeply I am sticking to my Close Kneel on this defense.

The pelvic alignment for a properly executed 'close kneel' stance, will not support the anatomical structure of the posture necessitated by the attack under a skeletal 'load.' You will be taken down, choked, strangled, locked and/or pinned. Hopefully you will never need to use this technique to find out.

The next time you talk to Jim, tell him I said that.