lack of serious martial artists

[KenpoMaster805]

Our class used to be packed too but since the COVID pendemic occur it got lesser we have more adult class then kids class but our kids and adults class are motivated

 

[Xue Sheng]

Frontal lobe injuries, violence, and aggression: a report of the Vietnam Head Injury Study - PubMed

Knowledge stored in the human prefrontal cortex may exert control over more primitive behavioral reactions to environmental provocation. Therefore, following frontal lobe lesions, patients are more likely to use physical intimidation or verbal threats in potential or actual confrontational...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Here is the standard of behavioral study. I mean it's just soulless decomposition without constructive and critical thinking. They have 279 Vietnam veterans with frontal lobe injuries, and their control is 57 veterans without frontal lobe damage.
Of course the veterans with frontal lobe damage are angry. If you broke your collar bone you would want to punch or swat anyone that touched it. If someone MAKES YOU USE what has been wounded they get angry; if you workout and are sore as hell you will get angry when someone wants you to do something when you just want to take it easy.
What do you think happens to a fighter? Their whole body and head gets beat up. Now what do they do? They're angry.

Veterans: You damage their head and they will be verbally aggressive. You hit a part of their brain responsible for language like the parietal lobe and maybe they become grammar nazis or have a special hatred for a certain genre of fiction. Maybe saying things a certain way, a certain way of constructing sentences or whatever inspires hatred and anger. You hit a part of their brain responsible for sight and maybe they stare you down, maybe they are aggressive in their visualization of things and what they try to percieve in their environment (looking in shadows, looking at bright things to adjust the eyes). Maybe the sight of something disrupts their visual field so much so they go and break it, tear it down.
What happens with veterans in general? They get angry. Injury or not they're aggressive so how the hell does this study even make sense? Something viscerally bothers them so they get angry. If you had a domestic abuse victim what kind of response would they give after a frontal lobe injury? Fear? Deference? Haha!

Just a bunch of loose data nothing more. Brain is alive and used like a muscle. Every person in every field thinks their field is the best and is incredibly well developed. Everyone that thinks they're well developed is a fool, and everyone ties their ego to their field of study so their field of study must be well developed, right?

If you know people you know the con! Use your brain, or injury, atrophy and ignorance settles in and one avoids it. Use your body, or injury, atrophy and ignorance settles in and you avoid it.

I really don't want to get into this...but huh????? You may want to read that article summary again

Do you know what ventromedial lesions of the prefrontal lobe means?

From the article you linked

"ventromedial lesions consistently demonstrated Aggression/Violence Scale scores significantly higher than controls and patients with lesions in other brain areas."

Ventromedial prefrontal cortex

As for training for "train for life or death"; I can tell you from experience when the bleeding heroin addict comes charging at you, or the mental health patent looks at you and says "I like you, but the voices are telling me to kill you", or someone points a gun at you, or the pro-wrestler hopped on who knows what puts his head down and charges like a bull, or two guys much bigger than you are having a fight and it is your job to wade in and break it up..... not a lot prepares you for that other than the actual incident itself... best advice...stay calm, time for panic is when its over, and anger rarely helps. Does fitness help, sure does, but there is a whole psychological side to that that you can't always train for.

I will admit, in my youth I did take Bruce Lee's advice about thinking what you would do if you were attacked RIGHT NOW!!!!! but no need to be paranoid about it. And if this little back and forth in this thread is frustrating you and making you angry, IMO, you need to work on that. Anger is rarely the answer, not that it can't be, there are times it is, but it is not the go to emotion in most confrontation. .

 

[_Simon_]

Every discussion of martial arts or any topic is borderline rehearsed. How is there any engagement with what is said? Are you serious? It's the same tropes repeated over and over again, or braindead copy pasting that has no relevance to the central point of what is being talked about. There is about nil intellectual ENGAGEMENT. ENGAGEMENT IS THE WORD. Just random copy pasting and regurgitations that missed what I was actually saying and HOW IT RELATES TO THE TOPIC OF LACK OF SERIOUS MARTIAL ARTISTS.

Look at this:


They REFERENCE Adaptability and Causes.
This means that the words were used and you, Monkey Turned Wolf, did not care to understand what the hell the context in the literature was. What a lazy response. They talk about the functional role of some brain morphology and you think that connects to what is being discussed but it doesn't.

What an unserious response with all the dressings of one. haha! Not one person here appears to be serious about brain morphology nor martial arts nor guiding others!

The planning required in martial arts is not difficult in the least if we're talking a controlled environment like a dojo where you just obey the damn instructor and show up each day or week. Why does anyone need to plan for that? There is no risk involved. Injury is not death. Serious injury is not likely at all. Serious injury does not prevent one from working, studying, thinking, interacting with others. The ones most at risk are those that use their body to work. The ones that don't use their brain for subsistence basically are at risk of poor decision-making. At the same time I see very little knowledge of injury prevention and receptivity to training that may reduce injury on this site. Kneesovertoesguy, bulletproof your knees, fix your joint pain, develop mobility and strength in stretch; NOPE! Not much interest.
This suggests an irony: People here ARE NOT SERIOUS about MA, and NOT SERIOUS about this topic. They talk about being guides and pin shortcomings on students or the lack of seriousness but THEY are the problem. You can put me in the same lot as the rest of you if you want!

All that I am asking is to connect MARTIAL ARTS to what is important for the development of the person. How could you have recognized this you may wonder? You could have seen the thread title then read me asking and positing how martial arts is important to teenagers and how current dojos or gyms DON'T motivate teenagers or ANYONE AT ANY AGE over and over again.

The topic should be about WHAT MAKES SOMEONE SERIOUS ABOUT MARTIAL ARTISTS and whether any of you are even serious about MA.

The developmental stage can inflect what is important to one. That's why I engaged with that topic when it was brought up. But the reason teenagers or anyone drops martial arts isn't brain morphology. Brain morphology isn't the big ticket that'll explain how or why people are interested in martial arts or why they show up then just leave.

One group of MA wants to draw blood, street fight, et cetera. Another group just wants to learn self-defense and how to protect people. Another wants to fight in matches and tournaments.
You only have a PASSION for MA if you LIKE TO FIGHT though. If you have a passion for MA it must be because you love fighting and conquering your enemies. There is no exception. It is brutal, barbaric and primitive. No one believes otherwise. If you do MA for another reason you just won't become very good, and you really have no passion for it. Maybe protecting others drives you to a degree but those with passion always find great thrill in fighting. Soldiers have limited use for MA and will not invest everything into it. Their seriousness or passion is outside the scope of MA, it is merely a part of their toolkit.

If MA is just something you use and developed as part of your life or part of your true passion (soldier) you are not passionate about MA it is just a hobby or tool to you.
People like Mike Tyson get quite a thrill out of fighting. He loves it. He's passionate for destroying his enemy. For conquering. For testing his strength against another. You might say otherwise but you'd be wrong. You'd be wrong about those passionate about MA: Every single one wants to fight, test their strength, test their meddle, defeat their opponent, be the victor, gain the spoil. Or they're hobbyists.

Brother, you've told us that your "training" involves pretending to be in severe danger all the time, purposely creating severely unhealthy paranoia and anxiety within yourself at all times and imagining danger, strengthening your neck, chewing rough things, not actually having done any martial arts training with a teacher, learning from the apparent best on YouTube (which is absolutely no substitute at all for in person training in regards to fighting), mentioning the kneesovertoesguy quite a bit (he is great I agree, bulletproofing your body is important, but actually not 100% necessary for fighting), and also tried to boast saying "I bet I could lift more than you."

I don't mean this to be disrespectful at all, but this is something we have encountered here before. You know some things about some things. But this seems to be where we're at. We have some INCREDIBLE martial artists on here, from all walks of life, and with vast experience. They are not hiding behind some authority complex, nor some TMA grandeur. But it's odd that you refuse to listen to those who actually have immense experience that could actually benefit you.

I'm hoping you can see where I'm coming from, but if not, all the best.

 

[Unkogami]

The above demonstrates the fact that the problem isn't a lack of serious MA but a lack of real MA.

 

[Tez3]

Frontal lobe injuries, violence, and aggression: a report of the Vietnam Head Injury Study - PubMed

Knowledge stored in the human prefrontal cortex may exert control over more primitive behavioral reactions to environmental provocation. Therefore, following frontal lobe lesions, patients are more likely to use physical intimidation or verbal threats in potential or actual confrontational...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Here is the standard of behavioral study. I mean it's just soulless decomposition without constructive and critical thinking. They have 279 Vietnam veterans with frontal lobe injuries, and their control is 57 veterans without frontal lobe damage.
Of course the veterans with frontal lobe damage are angry. If you broke your collar bone you would want to punch or swat anyone that touched it. If someone MAKES YOU USE what has been wounded they get angry; if you workout and are sore as hell you will get angry when someone wants you to do something when you just want to take it easy.
What do you think happens to a fighter? Their whole body and head gets beat up. Now what do they do? They're angry.

Veterans: You damage their head and they will be verbally aggressive. You hit a part of their brain responsible for language like the parietal lobe and maybe they become grammar nazis or have a special hatred for a certain genre of fiction. Maybe saying things a certain way, a certain way of constructing sentences or whatever inspires hatred and anger. You hit a part of their brain responsible for sight and maybe they stare you down, maybe they are aggressive in their visualization of things and what they try to percieve in their environment (looking in shadows, looking at bright things to adjust the eyes). Maybe the sight of something disrupts their visual field so much so they go and break it, tear it down.
What happens with veterans in general? They get angry. Injury or not they're aggressive so how the hell does this study even make sense? Something viscerally bothers them so they get angry. If you had a domestic abuse victim what kind of response would they give after a frontal lobe injury? Fear? Deference? Haha!

Just a bunch of loose data nothing more. Brain is alive and used like a muscle. Every person in every field thinks their field is the best and is incredibly well developed. Everyone that thinks they're well developed is a fool, and everyone ties their ego to their field of study so their field of study must be well developed, right?

If you know people you know the con! Use your brain, or injury, atrophy and ignorance settles in and one avoids it. Use your body, or injury, atrophy and ignorance settles in and you avoid it.

Ok, firstly you know nothing about veterans. Absolutely nothing. In general we do not get angry, having seen and experienced the things we have makes us actually more laid back. We know what's important in life, when you're close to losing your life it gives you perspective. We aren't anymore aggressive than civilians, we can however control our aggression and use it purposefully. I also resent the fact you chose to make the comment about domestic abuse victims in the same paragraph as if trying to correlate veterans and domestic abuse in some weird way.

And, talking about weird, your behaviour really is not normal nor is it healthy but I think you know that because part of your problem is that you are failing to convince us it's a good thing and validating your off the wall views so you are getting increasingly frustrated and angry resulting in you abusing people here.

Lastly, you are spouting complete nonsense, I hope it's just for our benefit because heaven help you if you actually believe it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am talking about what you're talking about and trying to interpret the data, what's the issue?
You say nothing I say is relevant but it is. You:

And my first line:

You talk about signal to noise ratio but what is determined to be noise and what is determined to be signal? Adults can become so one-track that they lose all perspective, is this superior?
How am I being irrelevant? Are we having a discussion or sharing literature? There is discussion here about why teenagers quit early and I am trying to develop perspective.
Big life decisions are indeed about wisdom and the big picture, and how it connects to what one really wants and how one makes sense of things including the meaning of life. How is that irrelevant? It is part of the discussion because I've made it part of it. Of course teenagers want something meaningful.

How do you think inconsistency in signal responses or feedback affects thinking and perspective? Along with the increase cross-talk, the reduced myelin suggests what in terms of the way it shapes a person? The brain of a teenager experiences less consistent or irrelevant feedback on everything it does, there is constant cross-chatter and signals move exposed and slower. Perhaps they can be more self-aware of how others see their thoughts or use creative reasoning because of this? What do you think? Perhaps they are more associative in their reasoning and doing? Perhaps they are more individualistic due to the lack of consistent 'trigger' and sense of disassociation or non-linearity in their own thinking?

With this in mind, what do you think would attract and motivate them? It seems like a good place to start.

There's a lot of "perhaps" in that. All of which is, so far as I can tell, wishful supposition.

The signal-to-noise issue isn't about anyone deciding which is which - it's about the neural system being able to transmit an intended signal. If you can't get why that's important, I don't think there's much I can do.

Most of the rest of what you say here is just you trying to say something positive about teenagers by comparison to adults. This leads me to believe you somehow take developmental stages as persona attacks. Teenagers' brains aren't fully developed. Full stop. That's not an insult to you or anyone else - just a thing that is.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You can't assume that brain structure is responsible though, which none of you seem to register is the central point of my argument. Yes I understand and have agreed that the brains of teenagers are still developing but if external factors demanded a more adult brain they would adapt. If teenagers had to live on their own after they reached puberty you would see different brain structures and different social structures preparing them and adapting them to an adult life before they reach 12 or so, and teenagers would be less affected by peer pressure and more adult in every way.

You can't arbitrarily decide that circumstance has no part in the physiology of their brain. I don't care how many others do it, you can't do that if you want to have insight and true knowledge. In this sense you've bent to the pressure of "common knowledge" haha! Ironic.

No. Brains don't evolve like that. That's not at all how evolution works. And that's not how human development works, either. The brain takes time to fully grow (like the rest of the body), and putting people in adult circumstances doesn't dramatically change that development pace. Some teens will develop a bit faster naturally, and they will do better with those decisions. Some teens learn better decision-making skills, but that's independent of the brain's physical development.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Every discussion of martial arts or any topic is borderline rehearsed. How is there any engagement with what is said? Are you serious? It's the same tropes repeated over and over again, or braindead copy pasting that has no relevance to the central point of what is being talked about. There is about nil intellectual ENGAGEMENT. ENGAGEMENT IS THE WORD. Just random copy pasting and regurgitations that missed what I was actually saying and HOW IT RELATES TO THE TOPIC OF LACK OF SERIOUS MARTIAL ARTISTS.

So, I'm assuing from this part of your post that you believe every MA discussion includes these same, tired points about brain development. You must hang out in some very different forums.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Easy point I can make: What do you all do for injury prevention and general athleticism? I hear talk about running from fights but I don't see any talk on how one develops that athleticism. You can't train if you're injured.

This is a good point for discussion.

Firstly, everything in our training is some kind of compromise. The most effective training for developing fighting skill is also the most likely to cause injury. So we all have to choose the level of training intensity and risk that fits our risk tolerance and priorities. And if we want to train hard, we need that athleticism you talk about. When I was training hard (in my 20's and 30's), the classes provided most of the athletic fitness I needed. We had a reasonable warm-up (including light stretching and strength work), and doing that for up to 15 classes a week did a lot for me. I supplemented with pretty intesnse strength training once a week.

Unfortunately (probably because of my love of running early in my life, with little stretching) my leg flexibility has never been as good as I'd like. Even with all the stretching I did back then, I could never get my hips loosened, and hamstrings never got much past being able to easily touch the ground. Perhaps if I'd been in a style that had more intensive stretching (most kicking styles, of course, have more focus on leg flexibility), then I'd have gotten further.

So when I teach, I push a bit more on the fitness and flexibility than my instructors did. I wish I had the level of knowledge some of the other members here do - I could do a better job.

 

[Tez3]

So, I'm assuing from this part of your post that you believe every MA discussion includes these same, tired points about brain development. You must hang out in some very different forums.

Not quite sure which forums those are they sound prickly.

 

[Diagen]

I really don't want to get into this...but huh????? You may want to read that article summary again

Do you know what ventromedial lesions of the prefrontal lobe means?

From the article you linked

"ventromedial lesions consistently demonstrated Aggression/Violence Scale scores significantly higher than controls and patients with lesions in other brain areas."

Ventromedial prefrontal cortex

As for training for "train for life or death"; I can tell you from experience when the bleeding heroin addict comes charging at you, or the mental health patent looks at you and says "I like you, but the voices are telling me to kill you", or someone points a gun at you, or the pro-wrestler hopped on who knows what puts his head down and charges like a bull, or two guys much bigger than you are having a fight and it is your job to wade in and break it up..... not a lot prepares you for that other than the actual incident itself... best advice...stay calm, time for panic is when its over, and anger rarely helps. Does fitness help, sure does, but there is a whole psychological side to that that you can't always train for.

I will admit, in my youth I did take Bruce Lee's advice about thinking what you would do if you were attacked RIGHT NOW!!!!! but no need to be paranoid about it. And if this little back and forth in this thread is frustrating you and making you angry, IMO, you need to work on that. Anger is rarely the answer, not that it can't be, there are times it is, but it is not the go to emotion in most confrontation. .

Why are you responding as if I did not say myself that they are more aggressive.
The fact is that when you read into it all you're getting is that they have a damned attitude. They are verbally aggressive. How the hell does this suggest dysfunction. The control are other veterans without brain damage, but how much damned action did they get in Vietnam? For all we know, because the study doesn't say so, they had a peaceful experience of war.
Nothing about the study can be used because there is just so little information and all we get is the fact that people getting a blast from something head-on tend to be more aggressive. Amazing! "Let's manage, control, and direct people's lives fast and loose with facts like these!"
Maybe certain people that have to use their frontal lobe often are angry and aggressive verbally. Do I need a study to know this? Hell lovely no. But all of you have 0 common sense or awareness of the world so I better help ya'll out: Gamers. Incredibly angry and verbally aggressive. Video games are intensive to the frontal lobe though. They are in fact intense to the entire brain depending on the game genre. Most studies do not really differentiate different genres in their study and draw conclusions on video games as a whole. The fact is that it is intensively frontal lobe though, including first-person shooters: Action Video Gaming and Cognitive Control: Playing First Person Shooter Games Is Associated with Improved Action Cascading but Not Inhibition

The only issue is interpretation of the data. You have Veterans that are more aggressive according to their family and friends. Okay! Now how did they get their head wound? They saw carnage, they are actively trying to shoot people, and an explosion went off and shrapnel went through their head most likely. Possibly a bullet went through their helment and into their skull. Okay! Why the hell do you think they have an angry damned personality? How the hell can you lobotomize yourselves and prostrate before a "study" when it just takes using your own brain to figure out what's going on?

Do any of you even read what I say or do your eyes gloss over because none of what I'm saying seems to be mentally and thoughtfully engaged with. It's like talking to chat bots. AI. Computer software. Nothing is registering.

 

[Diagen]

Brother, you've told us that your "training" involves pretending to be in severe danger all the time, purposely creating severely unhealthy paranoia and anxiety within yourself at all times and imagining danger, strengthening your neck, chewing rough things, not actually having done any martial arts training with a teacher, learning from the apparent best on YouTube (which is absolutely no substitute at all for in person training in regards to fighting), mentioning the kneesovertoesguy quite a bit (he is great I agree, bulletproofing your body is important, but actually not 100% necessary for fighting), and also tried to boast saying "I bet I could lift more than you."

I don't mean this to be disrespectful at all, but this is something we have encountered here before. You know some things about some things. But this seems to be where we're at. We have some INCREDIBLE martial artists on here, from all walks of life, and with vast experience. They are not hiding behind some authority complex, nor some TMA grandeur. But it's odd that you refuse to listen to those who actually have immense experience that could actually benefit you.

I'm hoping you can see where I'm coming from, but if not, all the best.

"Boasting "I could lift more than you" " You could think that but that's not it at all. Just because I use the words doesn't mean I am boasting ffs. The old guy was trying to assert I know nothing without engaging or conceding on anything, while posturing as a good, informed, established martial artist himself. My point was on basic physical ability and I didn't think he had even basic fitness down with his complete dismissal of the point.

I could listen but I hear no reasoning. Just " I am good you are not. You are ego. I am good." Every time I try to mindfully and intellectually engage with what's being said and bring up basic points of MA to talk about them I get "You are bad I am good kneesovertoesguy just Youtube. Youtube bad."

If they're great fine. They cannot communicate or sort their thoughts on the topic of MA at the very least.

 

[dunc]

I have spent much time preparing before walking around every corner, checking every blind spot, looking for blindspots, keeping aware of surroundings and not just looking around (ears, mental sense, exerting sensitivity), forcefully adapting my eyes to darkness when walking from a bright place to a dark one or keeping my eyes from going night blind when looking at bright lights at night or in a dark space, looking into shadows and hard to see places when going about and looking for hiding spots, keeping in tension the thought that someone I'm talking to might attack or charge, visualizing various life or death scenarios some of them complicated and trying to figure out the timing and ignorant "first drafts" of every move and energy level I responded with (resulting in adrenaline, cortisol, half contracted moves in body, that sort of thing), I am hard on myself, and I learn everything I can.
I don't think people do the mental and sensory side of things enough. I don't think people understand social dynamics too well when aggression is involved. I don't think athleticism and physical power is well studied by martial artists generally, nor do they train enough. I don't think toughening techniques are well developed or trained generally. I don't think weathering is considered - hot, cold, dry, wet. I don't think people know how to recover from fights or spars too well and that's no good haha, certain training lends itself to such but no one would believe me.
I don't think people that throw away what's good for them know jack **** about life or death. It's a far off concept to them. There is no necessity driving their martial arts training or they would be receptive.

I got plenty of knowledge it just takes a couple weeks to see the benefit of this or that method. One is for recovery and general development: high #s of Burnout sets. This is a considerably neglected training method given it's braindead simple. It builds passive muscle tone (muscle is defense), real toughness, mind-body, energy, endurance, and strength. Makes oak. Somethings are so braindead and rare I think cowardice and weakness rules the human soul. The thing about doing more and more burnout sets is that after you hit a strength bottom your strength starts to return until you have near infinite endurance. Why does no one know this haha? I don't have to be crazy to do it it just is way too easy it makes no sense.
The reason I haven't done anything is because I want to take a fat dump on everyone when I go from 0 to Hero using my methods. Does this place have training logs?

Hi
What style do you train it for this kind of objective?
The old Japanese systems do cover the points you make. There are methods for walking along a street, turning corners, entering a room and so on. These can be intertwined with etiquette also
However, the key, underlying principle of these methods is to be relaxed & balanced, to have no planned action in mind and to be curious about one's environment. This is actually a very pleasant and free way to go about life, but feels quite different to how you describe your training
I'm a bit worried that if one is actively scanning for the assassin in every shadow then you'll end up with quite a stressful life that takes it's toll on one's mental well-being
Similarly there are a lot of ways to toughen your body. These fall into the traditional methods (eg conditioning parts of your body for strikes and other attacks, or learning how to receive attacks to minimise their impact) which again are well transmitted in say the old Japanese styles and modern methods such as weights, diet and cardio (not that the traditional systems don't have these, but probably the modern methods are better)
In terms of training for life or death: Naturally the techniques one trains will be different compared to folk training for sport. In my experience the old Japanese systems do a good job of teaching these
Hope that helps and would love to know what style you train in
Thanks

 

[Xue Sheng]

Why are you responding as if I did not say myself that they are more aggressive.
The fact is that when you read into it all you're getting is that they have a damned attitude. They are verbally aggressive. How the hell does this suggest dysfunction. The control are other veterans without brain damage, but how much damned action did they get in Vietnam? For all we know, because the study doesn't say so, they had a peaceful experience of war.
Nothing about the study can be used because there is just so little information and all we get is the fact that people getting a blast from something head-on tend to be more aggressive. Amazing! "Let's manage, control, and direct people's lives fast and loose with facts like these!"
Maybe certain people that have to use their frontal lobe often are angry and aggressive verbally. Do I need a study to know this? Hell lovely no. But all of you have 0 common sense or awareness of the world so I better help ya'll out: Gamers. Incredibly angry and verbally aggressive. Video games are intensive to the frontal lobe though. They are in fact intense to the entire brain depending on the game genre. Most studies do not really differentiate different genres in their study and draw conclusions on video games as a whole. The fact is that it is intensively frontal lobe though, including first-person shooters: Action Video Gaming and Cognitive Control: Playing First Person Shooter Games Is Associated with Improved Action Cascading but Not Inhibition

The only issue is interpretation of the data. You have Veterans that are more aggressive according to their family and friends. Okay! Now how did they get their head wound? They saw carnage, they are actively trying to shoot people, and an explosion went off and shrapnel went through their head most likely. Possibly a bullet went through their helment and into their skull. Okay! Why the hell do you think they have an angry damned personality? How the hell can you lobotomize yourselves and prostrate before a "study" when it just takes using your own brain to figure out what's going on?

Do any of you even read what I say or do your eyes gloss over because none of what I'm saying seems to be mentally and thoughtfully engaged with. It's like talking to chat bots. AI. Computer software. Nothing is registering.

First, calm down, everyone is not attacking you, and I did read what you said. And if you re going to make statements on a web forum and claim to be wanting a discussion, then one should not expect blind following of what they say.

But like I said, you need to reread that. And you need to actually read what I said. I am not responding like you did not say they were more aggressive. But you are making a blanket statement and saying control was veterans without brain damage and that is incorrect based on the article you posted.

ventromedial lesions consistently demonstrated Aggression/Violence Scale scores significantly higher than controls and patients with lesions in other brain areas."

They used control of other patients with other areas of bran damage as well. Basically I think you are either misunderstanding the article you posted or misrepresenting it to make a point

And a good friend of mine was a tunnel rat in Vietnam, no brain damage, but was wounded and that messed him up pretty good to. However he did not come home overly violent, he came home an alcoholic. Friend of mines brother-in-law was also in Vietnam, no brain damage, but had very violent episodes for several years whenever he felt threatened

Also "zero common sense", interesting statement...have you had to deal with aggressive bleeding heroine addict, drugged up pro wrestler, violent mental health patients and having guns pointed at you, I have...survived it too.....you claim to be wanting a discussion, but it appears what you want everyone to agree with you completely or you will start insulting those that dare question you.... Interesting

 

[Diagen]

Ok, firstly you know nothing about veterans. Absolutely nothing. In general we do not get angry, having seen and experienced the things we have makes us actually more laid back. We know what's important in life, when you're close to losing your life it gives you perspective. We aren't anymore aggressive than civilians, we can however control our aggression and use it purposefully. I also resent the fact you chose to make the comment about domestic abuse victims in the same paragraph as if trying to correlate veterans and domestic abuse in some weird way.

And, talking about weird, your behaviour really is not normal nor is it healthy but I think you know that because part of your problem is that you are failing to convince us it's a good thing and validating your off the wall views so you are getting increasingly frustrated and angry resulting in you abusing people here.

Lastly, you are spouting complete nonsense, I hope it's just for our benefit because heaven help you if you actually believe it.

The topic wasn't even suppose to be what the frontal lobe does but how martial arts means anything to anyone. Everyone more motivated heals better, functions better, for whatever it is they are motivated for, or in the case of anger: Motivation without Purpose. That's anger. It's the all around motivator. Maybe you feel bad because your family wants you to leave and your friends don't want to hang out with you anymore but that doesn't negate the fact that anger is a general motivator. You might not like the demotivating consequences but it is what it is.

Domestic abuse victims: I am questioning whether a diminutive and fearful person with frontal lobe damage will exhibit anger like a war veteran charging a hill getting a piece of shrapnel from a grenade or artillery lodged in their forehead. I am questioning whether the general affect at time of injury will change the result. Will they be diminutive as a result? Will they be fearful after the injury?

What experience do you have with anger in others? You state you have plenty of anger you just have the discipline to focus it. How many people have you knocked out? How many other veterans do you know of have knocked people out? I'm not trying to target veterans and I'm not claiming they abuse their spouses or whomever. Anger doesn't mean it's uncontrolled like you said. Purposeful anger is dangerous though, right? And if things pass a certain threshold the soldier can be a real killer; this is RAGE. It is focused, enduring rage. Even if your rage is at immorality it is rage. Even if it's to protect others it's rage. You can't deny that there exists the rage and/or aggression to protect at least.

Angry people tend to be high-functioning people. They exert pressure, they put in effort, they USE THEIR FRONTAL LOBE and whole brain and body and get some result. It doesn't matter if the high functioning is for video games - they are good at what they do. Best example I can think of because it's very mental, quite frontal lobe, and the toxic aggressive culture is known. It doesn't matter if you think it's a meaningless thing to be very good at because it is what it is and anger is part of that. You try and get something done but are obstructed: you get "frustrated". Frustration is a form of anger no matter what you say. You focus anger it and it's an effective orientation 'tool'.

Do you think statistically the ones getting damage head-on are charging in, looking at danger, attacking and aiming more? I would bet that that's the case. That's not something the study considered though, did it? It's not brought up as a possible explanation, they don't reference a study contradicting the thought, it's not even on their 'radar'.

I really don't want to get into this...but huh????? You may want to read that article summary again

Do you know what ventromedial lesions of the prefrontal lobe means?

From the article you linked

"ventromedial lesions consistently demonstrated Aggression/Violence Scale scores significantly higher than controls and patients with lesions in other brain areas."

Ventromedial prefrontal cortex

As for training for "train for life or death"; I can tell you from experience when the bleeding heroin addict comes charging at you, or the mental health patent looks at you and says "I like you, but the voices are telling me to kill you", or someone points a gun at you, or the pro-wrestler hopped on who knows what puts his head down and charges like a bull, or two guys much bigger than you are having a fight and it is your job to wade in and break it up..... not a lot prepares you for that other than the actual incident itself... best advice...stay calm, time for panic is when its over, and anger rarely helps. Does fitness help, sure does, but there is a whole psychological side to that that you can't always train for.

I will admit, in my youth I did take Bruce Lee's advice about thinking what you would do if you were attacked RIGHT NOW!!!!! but no need to be paranoid about it. And if this little back and forth in this thread is frustrating you and making you angry, IMO, you need to work on that. Anger is rarely the answer, not that it can't be, there are times it is, but it is not the go to emotion in most confrontation. .

Anger is motivation without purpose. The more anger you have the more you can focus and sublimate it for a purpose though. This can be unhealthy but if you're literally in the middle of a fight then it's quite useful. I agree completely that it's quite psychological and panic is bad.
The study mentions aggression scores for lesions to other brain areas but they don't link it in the abstract. Counter: Since the lesions are in other brain areas, arguing and verbal aggression might be more difficult and/ or directed at things other than family and friends. In this post, to Tez, I question whether injury to the front of the brain suggests behavior differences on the battlefield such as moving TOWARDS danger, aiming while being shot at, not taking cover and shooting back instead. This is not accounted for in the study.

 

[Diagen]

There's a lot of "perhaps" in that. All of which is, so far as I can tell, wishful supposition.

The signal-to-noise issue isn't about anyone deciding which is which - it's about the neural system being able to transmit an intended signal. If you can't get why that's important, I don't think there's much I can do.

Most of the rest of what you say here is just you trying to say something positive about teenagers by comparison to adults. This leads me to believe you somehow take developmental stages as persona attacks. Teenagers' brains aren't fully developed. Full stop. That's not an insult to you or anyone else - just a thing that is.

You can't separate one's volition and experience from the physiology that isn't even logical. You would be suggesting that there is a person but that their functioning is incredibly macroscopic without any possibility of getting into the details of their own existing. Sure that might be the case half the time, but in the other half one is getting into more microscopic matters.
I am talking about it and suggesting the difference in function for more macroscopic and personal matters of the individual so how am I not regarding its importance?

Why can't I say something positive about teenagers while emphasising the meaning of my words with the negative connotation to adults? You can say steel is not flexible but you can also say it's strong. Why are you taking what is supposed to be an engaging matter and reducing it to a personal attack? Holy crap a conversation is impossible.

 

[Diagen]

No. Brains don't evolve like that. That's not at all how evolution works. And that's not how human development works, either. The brain takes time to fully grow (like the rest of the body), and putting people in adult circumstances doesn't dramatically change that development pace. Some teens will develop a bit faster naturally, and they will do better with those decisions. Some teens learn better decision-making skills, but that's independent of the brain's physical development.

Brains do in fact evolve like that and that is in fact how evolution works. If one had to specialize in planning growing up and reach extremely high levels beyond any adult by the age of 15, how the hell would your statement on teenagers' ability to plan make any sense? You contradict yourself and it is an easy catch. Based on your posting patterns you are more caught up in defending yourself than being honestly mindful of the conversation taking place.
You talk about development pace but that is your rigid take because you can't concieve of different convolutions and adaptations taking place thanks to different environmental pressures. Now in terms of just developmental pace alone, yes a teenager can outdo an adult in every metric that's a fact. Whatever their apparent development is and the relevant metrics, a teenager can outdo an adult. Whatever the purpose of each gradation of convolution isn't entirely know if it isn't critical to function, right? You have to ask what the convolutions are CRITICAL to and if function is the same with a different brain, you have not grasped the nature of it.
I am confronting your perspective and paradigm here. It's yours. It's not everyone. It's not every scientist's. It's not every cognitive scientist's. Don't assume it is.
Furthermore: Doesn't matter if it's published in a Journal journals don't take responsibility for their opinions, they just set a research standard and will post all contradicting studies and assumptuous abstracts as long as they meet the criteria of the scientific method. This isn't foolproof either. If the peers are ignorant then the ones being published are too.

 

[Diagen]

So, I'm assuing from this part of your post that you believe every MA discussion includes these same, tired points about brain development. You must hang out in some very different forums.

Yes actually. Lot of dialogue on scientific literature and subjects, as well as topics like MA.

 

[Tez3]

The topic wasn't even suppose to be what the frontal lobe does but how martial arts means anything to anyone. Everyone more motivated heals better, functions better, for whatever it is they are motivated for, or in the case of anger: Motivation without Purpose. That's anger. It's the all around motivator. Maybe you feel bad because your family wants you to leave and your friends don't want to hang out with you anymore but that doesn't negate the fact that anger is a general motivator. You might not like the demotivating consequences but it is what it is.

Domestic abuse victims: I am questioning whether a diminutive and fearful person with frontal lobe damage will exhibit anger like a war veteran charging a hill getting a piece of shrapnel from a grenade or artillery lodged in their forehead. I am questioning whether the general affect at time of injury will change the result. Will they be diminutive as a result? Will they be fearful after the injury?

What experience do you have with anger in others? You state you have plenty of anger you just have the discipline to focus it. How many people have you knocked out? How many other veterans do you know of have knocked people out? I'm not trying to target veterans and I'm not claiming they abuse their spouses or whomever. Anger doesn't mean it's uncontrolled like you said. Purposeful anger is dangerous though, right? And if things pass a certain threshold the soldier can be a real killer; this is RAGE. It is focused, enduring rage. Even if your rage is at immorality it is rage. Even if it's to protect others it's rage. You can't deny that there exists the rage and/or aggression to protect at least.

Angry people tend to be high-functioning people. They exert pressure, they put in effort, they USE THEIR FRONTAL LOBE and whole brain and body and get some result. It doesn't matter if the high functioning is for video games - they are good at what they do. Best example I can think of because it's very mental, quite frontal lobe, and the toxic aggressive culture is known. It doesn't matter if you think it's a meaningless thing to be very good at because it is what it is and anger is part of that. You try and get something done but are obstructed: you get "frustrated". Frustration is a form of anger no matter what you say. You focus anger it and it's an effective orientation 'tool'.

Do you think statistically the ones getting damage head-on are charging in, looking at danger, attacking and aiming more? I would bet that that's the case. That's not something the study considered though, did it? It's not brought up as a possible explanation, they don't reference a study contradicting the thought, it's not even on their 'radar'.




Anger is motivation without purpose. The more anger you have the more you can focus and sublimate it for a purpose though. This can be unhealthy but if you're literally in the middle of a fight then it's quite useful. I agree completely that it's quite psychological and panic is bad.
The study mentions aggression scores for lesions to other brain areas but they don't link it in the abstract. Counter: Since the lesions are in other brain areas, arguing and verbal aggression might be more difficult and/ or directed at things other than family and friends. In this post, to Tez, I question whether injury to the front of the brain suggests behavior differences on the battlefield such as moving TOWARDS danger, aiming while being shot at, not taking cover and shooting back instead. This is not accounted for in the study.

You've not understood what I said at all. I haven't stated I have lots of anger, aggression isn't anger. Aggression I can switch on and off when needed, ask any Regimental Sergeant Major. I am rarely angry. Anger causes you to make mistakes, it blindsides you, it also exhausts you. You never want to go into a fight angry, whether it's a military battle, a bar fight or a competition fight.

You know the military are trained to move towards danger, as are first responders and police.

I'm not sure why you think soldiers are angry lol. As for saying when they get in a rage they are real killers, well that's nonsense. Anyone can kill in the right situation, soldiers ARE trained to kill, the more usual complaint is that they are cold blooded killers which to an extent they are because under fire TRAINING kicks in not anger. The training you've literally had drilled into and practiced takes over your brain and your body. You go into a state more of calm than anger, mentally checking, observing, going through the actions as second nature. (No, I don't know what part of your brain lol. ) Go in angry and you will die and you will get your mates killed too. Your idea of berserking soldiers is far from the truth. Stop equating anger with aggression, do some research on the military, the modern military. You really have no idea.

 

[Diagen]

This is a good point for discussion.

Firstly, everything in our training is some kind of compromise. The most effective training for developing fighting skill is also the most likely to cause injury. So we all have to choose the level of training intensity and risk that fits our risk tolerance and priorities. And if we want to train hard, we need that athleticism you talk about. When I was training hard (in my 20's and 30's), the classes provided most of the athletic fitness I needed. We had a reasonable warm-up (including light stretching and strength work), and doing that for up to 15 classes a week did a lot for me. I supplemented with pretty intesnse strength training once a week.

Unfortunately (probably because of my love of running early in my life, with little stretching) my leg flexibility has never been as good as I'd like. Even with all the stretching I did back then, I could never get my hips loosened, and hamstrings never got much past being able to easily touch the ground. Perhaps if I'd been in a style that had more intensive stretching (most kicking styles, of course, have more focus on leg flexibility), then I'd have gotten further.

So when I teach, I push a bit more on the fitness and flexibility than my instructors did. I wish I had the level of knowledge some of the other members here do - I could do a better job.

Yeah I agree, this is a nice break. I also agree that the most effective training for fighting skills is most likely to cause injury. I think loading the max stretch of the muscles, like many top coaches nowadays, improves connective tissue strength and strengthens muscles that are necessary for athletic performance and protection of joints. I am a robot but: kneesovertoesguy. This stuff really helps the back as well, just great for the low back and lower body. Pulls on everything and strengthens it too. There are standards you can establish and make sure everyone meets with proper training method to get them there and this guy is a real coach who learns from Olympic coaches and athletes, and his own athletes.
The good thing about exercises is that you can get a direct improvement to something MA related and everyone can do it at home. 'Bulletproofing' joints is huge too. You have everything wrapped and strapped and the joints are good in the old as well as young. The kneesovertoesguy had tears in his miniscus and didn't have them operated on, just started doing the loaded stretch type stuff and he's good to go now. The exercises can in fact heal damage because you are training them which creates a localized healing and building effect, and you are improving the longevity or infinite use of the joints because you are creating BALANCED FORCES on them. You build muscles that protect ligaments and your ligaments will last. ACL tears are huge and the Nordic Curl is #1 for protecting it but it's a rare exercise. Triple jumper gold medalist used them once a week for 20 years.
Having the best exercise selection is essential. I find the strength standards the kneesovertoesguy sets to be too low but maybe he's just saying crap for Youtube viewers. 25% BW is often the standard but 100% BW on things like the Jefferson Curl for 20 reps seems like a great standard every high level fighter/ martial artist should achieve to be the best. A full 20 Nordic Curls with 25% BW would be relatively difficult but incredibly useful. Every unique development improves the martial artist so that every possible scenario can be overcome. For instance: Strong Nordic curl means fast and strong forward step, moreso than the untrained. It means a heel kick is more effective. It means a lot of things for movement that aren't necessarily obvious.

I think experienced martial artists doing these exercises for a couple months and talking about the benefits they get would be the most direct way of assessing their explicit usefulness.