lack of serious martial artists

[Diagen]

Yes.
And no, that's incorrect in the way you mean it. Anger is not a good thing.

I don't understand what you mean "incorrect in the way you mean it". If it's true it's true. If it's false it's false.

 

[Diagen]

The people that don't like anger tend to not like achieving much either. You want to talk about martial arts with them and they tend to want to talk about you, themselves, and the world and everything else as well. In other words they don't really have the drive and worry more about social things at the cost of the goal. Their attention is diffuse and wandering.
Am I incorrect?

 

[Tez3]

I don't understand what you mean "incorrect in the way you mean it". If it's true it's true. If it's false it's false.

The people that don't like anger tend to not like achieving much either. You want to talk about martial arts with them and they tend to want to talk about you, themselves, and the world and everything else as well. In other words they don't really have the drive and worry more about social things at the cost of the goal. Their attention is diffuse and wandering.
Am I incorrect?

Yes you are incorrect.
Anger is a normal human emotion. People get angry over all sorts of things. Look at the so called 'Karen' syndrome, workers shooting fellow employees of those they have grudge against.
Others get angry over mistreatment of animals, children, refugees, climate change etc and use that anger to make the world a better place. There's the anger bereaved people feel, it's part of the greaving process.

What you want us to believe is that as martial artists we should be angry to achieve anything, to fight or defend ourselves. You think only anger will produce hormones ( care to inform us which hormones?) and focus. You have no idea though how high achievers are driven, clue... it's not by anger. You have no idea what drive is, I imagine some are driven by anger but that never ends well. Some are driven by passion, some by revenge even, others by wanting to achieve in their field, others because they want things better for themselves and/or others. These aren't angry people. They are people with a purpose, single minded, often quite ruthless at getting what they want. They are clear minded with focus.

'The goal', what is that? 'social things'?

Clarity doesn't come with anger, the same hormones you laud give you tunnel vision.

People are people, well rounded people have focus when they need it, they have emotional intelligence, humanity, empathy, righteous anger, a sense of humour and a banging mawashi geri. We achieve what we want to achieve, and if we don't, it's not because we aren't angry.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The topic wasn't even suppose to be what the frontal lobe does but how martial arts means anything to anyone. Everyone more motivated heals better, functions better, for whatever it is they are motivated for, or in the case of anger: Motivation without Purpose. That's anger. It's the all around motivator. Maybe you feel bad because your family wants you to leave and your friends don't want to hang out with you anymore but that doesn't negate the fact that anger is a general motivator. You might not like the demotivating consequences but it is what it is.

Domestic abuse victims: I am questioning whether a diminutive and fearful person with frontal lobe damage will exhibit anger like a war veteran charging a hill getting a piece of shrapnel from a grenade or artillery lodged in their forehead. I am questioning whether the general affect at time of injury will change the result. Will they be diminutive as a result? Will they be fearful after the injury?

What experience do you have with anger in others? You state you have plenty of anger you just have the discipline to focus it. How many people have you knocked out? How many other veterans do you know of have knocked people out? I'm not trying to target veterans and I'm not claiming they abuse their spouses or whomever. Anger doesn't mean it's uncontrolled like you said. Purposeful anger is dangerous though, right? And if things pass a certain threshold the soldier can be a real killer; this is RAGE. It is focused, enduring rage. Even if your rage is at immorality it is rage. Even if it's to protect others it's rage. You can't deny that there exists the rage and/or aggression to protect at least.

Angry people tend to be high-functioning people. They exert pressure, they put in effort, they USE THEIR FRONTAL LOBE and whole brain and body and get some result. It doesn't matter if the high functioning is for video games - they are good at what they do. Best example I can think of because it's very mental, quite frontal lobe, and the toxic aggressive culture is known. It doesn't matter if you think it's a meaningless thing to be very good at because it is what it is and anger is part of that. You try and get something done but are obstructed: you get "frustrated". Frustration is a form of anger no matter what you say. You focus anger it and it's an effective orientation 'tool'.

Do you think statistically the ones getting damage head-on are charging in, looking at danger, attacking and aiming more? I would bet that that's the case. That's not something the study considered though, did it? It's not brought up as a possible explanation, they don't reference a study contradicting the thought, it's not even on their 'radar'.




Anger is motivation without purpose. The more anger you have the more you can focus and sublimate it for a purpose though. This can be unhealthy but if you're literally in the middle of a fight then it's quite useful. I agree completely that it's quite psychological and panic is bad.
The study mentions aggression scores for lesions to other brain areas but they don't link it in the abstract. Counter: Since the lesions are in other brain areas, arguing and verbal aggression might be more difficult and/ or directed at things other than family and friends. In this post, to Tez, I question whether injury to the front of the brain suggests behavior differences on the battlefield such as moving TOWARDS danger, aiming while being shot at, not taking cover and shooting back instead. This is not accounted for in the study.

Anger can be a tool. it should not control. And staying calm is a much better, safer, healthier and more effective way to go.

and might I remind you, you're the one that brought frontal lobe into all of this. If you did not want it discussed then why bring it in?

and I am not denying rage exists, dealt with it personally after a divorce years ago, also sought help dealing with it because I was going to kill someone.

Basically, I don't agree with you and likely won't. And I seriously doubt you are open to discussion so....... have fun tilting at windmills

 

[Xue Sheng]

It says, "Controls AND patients with lesions in other brain areas." In the study they state that they pulled the forebrain damage veterans from the VA hospital register/ records but don't claim the controls were pulled from the hospital records. I think the abstract is just connecting to other research without citing it.

If we're trying to clarify alright that's part of the discussion. People use science to justify some assertion all the time though, like phrenology. This isn't phrenology and for all I know phrenology has some basis in reality BUT I think details are details and assertions or conclusions in the abstract are that of the scientist NOT of the study. In this study you see people rating their family and friends back from war with head trauma as more aggressive but sometimes the study isn't well done and you really need to read the methodology itself. It's VERY common that the abstract is full of JUNK and the study itself says VERY LITTLE about anything but scientists are quite presumptuous about the IMPORTANCE and EXPLANATORY POWER of everything they study. Just human nature.

so...where did the phrenology bit come from...I never mentioned it, the article never mentioned it and it has noting to do with what I said and lesions in other brain areas has nothing to do with phrenology either. You made the statement about veterans without brain injury being the control and by the article you posted that was erroneous.

 

[Buka]

I have found the louder people yell, the less I am able to hear. I’ve found that with a whisper, the more I have to strain to hear. It’s why I think regular conversational tone works the best over all. Especially when sharing information.

I also think different personalities create, or lessen, dangers to themselves.

I also believe long time, hard, honest training builds a lot of things. Chief amongst them, and usually not appreciated, are the olfactory senses. Like the B.S. detector.

 

[Tez3]

The people that don't like anger tend to not like achieving much either. You want to talk about martial arts with them and they tend to want to talk about you, themselves, and the world and everything else as well. In other words they don't really have the drive and worry more about social things at the cost of the goal. Their attention is diffuse and wandering.
Am I incorrect?

Ever met a Gurkha? Best soldiers in the world, fight with a smile on their face and ice in their brain. They are polite, family minded, don't brawl, achieve what they set out to do and are utterly utterly deadly.

 

[Diagen]

Yes you are incorrect.
Anger is a normal human emotion. People get angry over all sorts of things. Look at the so called 'Karen' syndrome, workers shooting fellow employees of those they have grudge against.
Others get angry over mistreatment of animals, children, refugees, climate change etc and use that anger to make the world a better place. There's the anger bereaved people feel, it's part of the greaving process.

What you want us to believe is that as martial artists we should be angry to achieve anything, to fight or defend ourselves. You think only anger will produce hormones ( care to inform us which hormones?) and focus. You have no idea though how high achievers are driven, clue... it's not by anger. You have no idea what drive is, I imagine some are driven by anger but that never ends well. Some are driven by passion, some by revenge even, others by wanting to achieve in their field, others because they want things better for themselves and/or others. These aren't angry people. They are people with a purpose, single minded, often quite ruthless at getting what they want. They are clear minded with focus.

'The goal', what is that? 'social things'?

Clarity doesn't come with anger, the same hormones you laud give you tunnel vision.

People are people, well rounded people have focus when they need it, they have emotional intelligence, humanity, empathy, righteous anger, a sense of humour and a banging mawashi geri. We achieve what we want to achieve, and if we don't, it's not because we aren't angry.

You aren't even open to COGNIZING how anger relates to performance how the hell can you know anything about how anger relates to function or force? If emotion has no function or force to you then you're dead wrong. What do you think is behind ruthlessness for that matter? Do you think being cutthroat has no anger driving it? Ridiculous assumptions about achievers, drive, people and anger mate it doesn't even make sense. You talk about anger is if everyone with anger cannot use their brain. What about hate? Can someone with hate use their brain? Your assumptions about the interior of people and what can be accomplished while emotions are involved is really really ignorant.
Incredibly ignorant. What do you know about what people feel? Many intellectuals and goal-oriented people are incredibly angry or hateful, often without expressing it. Many ruthless and cutthroat people are incredibly angry and hateful, without expressing it. What is this false contradiction you have laid out?
Can I not experience multiple emotions? Am I a raging berserker? Are you a peaceful saint? Who the hell can't experience multiple many different emotions at the same time? Who can't be angry and clear-headed? What is this profound insight you claim to have?

How about this: Where is the clarity for Mike Tyson? You know his mind huh? You don't think he's angry and aggressive and brings that into every workout? Can you tell me how Mike Tyson is doing it wrong? Keeping the conversation GROUNDED here.

 

[Diagen]

Anger can be a tool. it should not control. And staying calm is a much better, safer, healthier and more effective way to go.

and might I remind you, you're the one that brought frontal lobe into all of this. If you did not want it discussed then why bring it in?

and I am not denying rage exists, dealt with it personally after a divorce years ago, also sought help dealing with it because I was going to kill someone.

Basically, I don't agree with you and likely won't. And I seriously doubt you are open to discussion so....... have fun tilting at windmills

How is it more effective? Mike Tyson. Literally can't get a god damn conversation about that. You all say anger is bad. He uses anger. He's better than all of you. Care to explain? Please.
You are getting heated and want to end the argument haha I am completely open to discussion! We're reaching the point where you're angry and if it continues you'll concede that I'm right or blow the f up!

 

[Diagen]

I have found the louder people yell, the less I am able to hear. I’ve found that with a whisper, the more I have to strain to hear. It’s why I think regular conversational tone works the best over all. Especially when sharing information.

I also think different personalities create, or lessen, dangers to themselves.

I also believe long time, hard, honest training builds a lot of things. Chief amongst them, and usually not appreciated, are the olfactory senses. Like the B.S. detector.

I strain to hear the angriest mofos. You should too. Good for the brain, guts, heart and ears. Cheers.
Also yes danger danger. Like Mike Tyson. Who went to jail for rape and was a criminal but one of the greatest fighters.

Conquer anger haha or remain inadequate! Don't be a rapist but get angry how about that. Don't kill because you can't handle rage how about that.

 

[Diagen]

Ever met a Gurkha? Best soldiers in the world, fight with a smile on their face and ice in their brain. They are polite, family minded, don't brawl, achieve what they set out to do and are utterly utterly deadly.

I don't see how ice is much better than fire here in terms of ethics or whatever. They kill their enemies, as you say. Polite, family minded, don't brawl, has nothing to do with me or real value outside of their family. Polite is restraint. Family minded is restraint. Don't brawl is restraint. That's all it is. They think about killing and death every hour every minute of the day I'll tell you that much. I would have to look into it to verify your claim a bit.

 

[Diagen]

Ya'll angry you can't hide behind laughter.

 

[Diagen]

I have found the louder people yell, the less I am able to hear. I’ve found that with a whisper, the more I have to strain to hear. It’s why I think regular conversational tone works the best over all. Especially when sharing information.

I also think different personalities create, or lessen, dangers to themselves.

I also believe long time, hard, honest training builds a lot of things. Chief amongst them, and usually not appreciated, are the olfactory senses. Like the B.S. detector.

I use the BS detector as well it's just that everyone here is somewhere on the meter and the stink spikes at times!

 

[Diagen]

I strain to hear the angriest mofos. You should too. Good for the brain, guts, heart and ears. Cheers.
Also yes danger danger. Like Mike Tyson. Who went to jail for rape and was a criminal but one of the greatest fighters.

Conquer anger haha or remain inadequate! Don't be a rapist but get angry how about that. Don't kill because you can't handle rage how about that.

All of you have a psychological complex against anger. Can't argue for crap. Can't address what I'm saying. Can't fight. Completely inadequate.
The angriest people I've talked to have literally been the smartest. Every time. They get the point of things, they're goal oriented, conversations go places. None of you can move a convo forward in the least you all implode or begin to crack through the shell of "benevolence" with your building anger and just tap out of the convo haha!

I am serious here.

 

[Tez3]

You aren't even open to COGNIZING how anger relates to performance how the hell can you know anything about how anger relates to function or force? If emotion has no function or force to you then you're dead wrong. What do you think is behind ruthlessness for that matter? Do you think being cutthroat has no anger driving it? Ridiculous assumptions about achievers, drive, people and anger mate it doesn't even make sense. You talk about anger is if everyone with anger cannot use their brain. What about hate? Can someone with hate use their brain? Your assumptions about the interior of people and what can be accomplished while emotions are involved is really really ignorant.
Incredibly ignorant. What do you know about what people feel? Many intellectuals and goal-oriented people are incredibly angry or hateful, often without expressing it. Many ruthless and cutthroat people are incredibly angry and hateful, without expressing it. What is this false contradiction you have laid out?
Can I not experience multiple emotions? Am I a raging berserker? Are you a peaceful saint? Who the hell can't experience multiple many different emotions at the same time? Who can't be angry and clear-headed? What is this profound insight you claim to have?

How about this: Where is the clarity for Mike Tyson? You know his mind huh? You don't think he's angry and aggressive and brings that into every workout? Can you tell me how Mike Tyson is doing it wrong? Keeping the conversation GROUNDED here.

Sweetie, you need to really, really be quiet now. You are having a tantrum.

You are being over emotional, irrational and acting like a toddler denied a lollipop.

You aren't talking about other people are you, you are talking about your own anger and are trying to justify how you feel by telling it's good. You are afraid and it's making you angrier and angrier. Whatever situation is making you feel helpless, a common cause of anger like yours, there's help. Remember that.

 

[Diagen]

If you can't tolerate the powerful emotion of anger how the hell are you going to become a greater fighter? You're all avoiding it.

 

[Diagen]

Sweetie, you need to really, really be quiet now. You are having a tantrum.

You are being over emotional, irrational and acting like a toddler denied a lollipop.

You aren't talking about other people are you, you are talking about your own anger and are trying to justify how you feel by telling it's good. You are afraid and it's making you angrier and angrier. Whatever situation is making you feel helpless, a common cause of anger like yours, there's help. Remember that.

Why are you projecting :^)

You're getting angry. Why can't you be angry without self-denial? Everyone gets angry but you can't handle that feeling or direct it towards anything productive. You want to DO something but. . . can't? Maybe you're just wrong then.
It's clear I'm being nothing but logical here and making good points. I don't mean reductive and deductive I mean LOGICAL. BIG BRAIN. I'm being quite damn reasonable.

I get you're old but you could definitely reach a high level at any age and it will increase your longevity in all likelihood. Do you take fish oil or krill oil? Chondroiten and glucosamine? Medicine food mushrooms (legal) ? You gotta. Double dose on the recommended amount, it's food. GREAT stuff. Use the kneesovertoesguy exercises. GREAT stuff will make your joints and body YOUNG. I'll keep coming back to this forum and keep dropping KNOWLEDGE so you and everyone can benefit.

 

[Tez3]

I don't see how ice is much better than fire here in terms of ethics or whatever. They kill their enemies, as you say. Polite, family minded, don't brawl, has nothing to do with me or real value outside of their family. Polite is restraint. Family minded is restraint. Don't brawl is restraint. That's all it is. They think about killing and death every hour every minute of the day I'll tell you that much. I would have to look into it to verify your claim a bit.

I don't have to look them up, I've worked with them, my shift partner was a Gurkha, I have many Gurkha friends. My husband trained with them, he's ex spec forces. They don't think about killing every hour, you may, in fact I think you do. You are becoming more disturbed with every post.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If you can't tolerate the powerful emotion of anger how the hell are you going to become a greater fighter? You're all avoiding it.

Maybe we're just not angry at the moment?

 

[Diagen]

I don't have to look them up, I've worked with them, my shift partner was a Gurkha, I have many Gurkha friends. My husband trained with them, he's ex spec forces. They don't think about killing every hour, you may, in fact I think you do. You are becoming more disturbed with every post.

Didn't realize you are a woman my mistake in the previous post I assumed you were male so some of it doesnt' apply. I have deleted that section with an edit.
You wouldn't know what goes on in their mind and they wouldn't disturb you with knowledge that death and threat is on their mind so how would you know.