Kosho Shorei Ryu

[kroh]

some people seem to think that a martial arts system based on principles is unheard of.

You have to consider that the average person can't learn this way. Think back to school when you had to learn multiplication tables. You learned those tables to exponents that really wasn't necessary but allowed the average person to see the result to a broad level. The same goes to principle based training. You don't need to show some one that a down bock, a low hammer strike, and the first part of the motion to a wrist torque positional lock starts from and then returns to a low blocking motion. You can look at them and say do this motion and end in this result.

The average person can't do this however as they need predefined techniques where technique builds upon technique. They need those hundred or so techniques before they see the over riding principle (while some never will). This goes back to a lot of the karate-mom-n-pop dojo's that service a fun, family atmosphere. The average (not anyone on these boards of course as we are all well above average) person needs that kind of structure.

I prefer principle based training (this goes back to the proper teaching method used in kata training) as i find it is more challenging and therefore more rewarding. But that's just me.

Regards,
Walt

 

[Danjo]

Hey, after hearing what the training consists of in Kosho, I can now say that I firmly believe that Juchnick trained with Mitose. If all they did was sit around and have Mitose say things like, "imagine yourself on a cliff..." etc. then I have no problem with the idea that he learned that way. What value that kind of training is, however, is a different matter entirely.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Hey, after hearing what the training consists of in Kosho, I can now say that I firmly believe that Juchnick trained with Mitose. If all they did was sit around and have Mitose say things like, "imagine yourself on a cliff..." etc. then I have no problem with the idea that he learned that way. What value that kind of training is, however, is a different matter entirely.

i take it you have never been to a kosho class......much less, one with bruce juchnik.
dont knock it til you try it.

 

[Martial Tucker]

"3. no one present at that time in danzan ryu jujutsu had ever said that mitose studied danzan ryu jujutsu....more speculation.
shihan michael brown from skski would know for sure.......he did talk to sig kufferath about it"

By looking at his web site, he's just another one of the Mitose Clan that can best be described as a "koolaid drinker". You will not get accurate information from someone like this when thier entire existnce is centered around worshipping Mitose and making sure everyone knows "what great man he was".

I participated in this thread before it got moved to the Kenpo Forum, and have been casually following it since.

While my primary arts are TKD and HKD, I know several high ranking Kosho practitioners, and have trained with both Michael Brown and Bruce Juchnik.
All I can say was that I was extremely impressed with both men, as both martial artists and as teachers. Personally, I really don't give a flying cr*p
about what Mitose did or didn't do, or what/how Juchnik could have learned from him. It's all water under the bridge, and dwelling on it wastes valuable time that could be spent learning, training, and advancing the art in it's current form (which is both beautiful and effective).

I chose the Korean arts as my primary styles because I personally prefer a
style that is "harder" in philosophy and execution. The Kosho style is just too "soft" for me, but I still like to occasionally train with, exchange ideas with, and learn from a good Kosho practitioner, and Shihan Brown and Hanshi Juchnik are as good as they come. To me, that's all that matters.

 

[Flying Crane]

Personally, I really don't give a flying cr*p
about what Mitose did or didn't do, or what/how Juchnik could have learned from him. It's all water under the bridge, and dwelling on it wastes valuable time that could be spent learning, training, and advancing the art in it's current form (which is both beautiful and effective).

Yeah, many arts have shady beginnings, or shady characters, but if it has proven itself as an effective system, that is what really matters.

Many Chinese arts are/were associated with gangsters, but we still practice them. Many Chinese arts claim origins in the Shaolin temple, or were created by a mysterious wandering monk, or a famous war leader, but most of these claims are questionable at best. Doesn't mean it isn't a good art. We can knit-pick forever and never agree on who did what, or who should be trusted or believed, or who has skill, but it is all nonsense. If the art has proven its effectiveness, that is what is really important.

 

[Danjo]

While my primary arts are TKD and HKD, I know several high ranking Kosho practitioners, and have trained with both Michael Brown and Bruce Juchnik.
All I can say was that I was extremely impressed with both men, as both martial artists and as teachers.
.

Juchnik didn't learn his MA skills from Mitose.

 

[Martial Tucker]

Juchnik didn't learn his MA skills from Mitose.

I didn't say that he did for sure, and I really don't care. That was my point. I wouldn't care if Mitose was an ax murderer, and I wouldn't care if Juchnik learned his skills from Mother Theresa.

My points:

1. Kosho is a beautiful, effective martial art.

2. Bruce Juchnik and Michael Brown are extremely good at it.

3. Both men are also excellent teachers.

All I'm saying is, these three points are all that matters NOW.
I'll say it again....This thread started out as a potential new Kosho practitioner asking for basic information about Kosho. All he got from most of
the accomplished ambassadors of Kosho on this thread was a gigantic
p*ssing match. How does that advance Kosho as an art?

FWIW, the same thing happens often in the Korean arts, so I don't mean to imply that we Korean stylists are above such squabbles. But, as someone who likes to see more people get involved in the martial arts, I do get angry when a thread that was intended for basic info immediately turns into
a food fight over things that happened decades ago, and have no bearing on training as a martial artist today. Very impressive.....

 

[Danjo]

1. Kosho is a beautiful, effective martial art.

A Martial art that has no techniques?

 

[Monadnock]

I think the problem, for me at least, was when Kosho was touted as being 750 years old, but yet it should really be named Juchnik-Jutsu.

Now, I for one respect new systems as much as the old if they are fairly valid, and Mr. Juchnik's art may very well be one of those, based on those who have experienced it. But if it stands on its own two feet, why the references to non-existant lineages and men who had very little contact as teachers?

I know someone close to my area - very close - so I'll direct my questions that way and report back any enlightening info.

 

[kroh]

But if it stands on its own two feet, why the references to non-existant lineages and men who had very little contact as teachers?

That is a good point and perhaps when the truth becomes known then maybe they will change their info. Look At Danzan Ryu. Very effective martial art that claims who created it and when. Another would be Jeet Kune Do. All recent (within the last 100 years) and still valid martial arts.

I know someone close to my area - very close - so I'll direct my questions that way and report back any enlightening info.

Let us know what you find...
Regards,
Walt

 

[kroh]

A Martial art that has no techniques?

One principle can equal many techniques. If you know the over riding principle you do not have to be spoon fed many different techniques and hope that you memorize them all and practice them enough so they work. Another example of a martial art taught this way is Combat Hapkido. They teach that if you know the basic principle of a certain action then the "technique" is the principle applied in different situations. They won't just teach you a wrist lock at a certain level and then how to apply it in different ways at each level. They teach you the lock and then have YOU look for different places to apply it. They say, "The lock works under these circumstances. Go ahead and see where those circumstances occour." The same is true of military training. They don't say to an infantry soldier, "OK men, This is how to do a pincer movement under fire. And this is how to do it in jungle, and this is how to do it in the snow." They just show you the movement and it is up to you to improvise when the time comes and adapt to change. Strict codified techniques that only work in the context of the dojo enviornment are ok for some one before they understand how the principle that drives the technique works.

But that is just my opinion of it and I could be wrong (which would mean that the ones who showed me that way are wrong, but that is ok, as I will have company).

Regards,
Walt

 

[Danjo]

The same is true of military training. They don't say to an infantry soldier, "OK men, This is how to do a pincer movement under fire. And this is how to do it in jungle, and this is how to do it in the snow." They just show you the movement and it is up to you to improvise when the time comes and adapt to change. Strict codified techniques that only work in the context of the dojo enviornment are ok for some one before they understand how the principle that drives the technique works.

The military drills it's soldiers on marksmanship. They do teach specific skills and how to apply them in various terrain. The soldiers being sent to the Middle East are trained in the Mojave Desert. They are not just given principles to follow. IMO the reason taht Kosho has devolved from the technique based instruction to the Concept based is due to the fact that Mitose was WEAK in technique and as more people became trained in the martial arts in the USA, the more obvious it became. So then he simply said, "well I teach concepts." etc. as a cop out. Concepts are a part of every martial art that I have seen. It's not unique to Kosho and it doesn't substitute for good technique training.

 

[Flying Crane]

So then he simply said, "well I teach concepts." etc. as a cop out. Concepts are a part of every martial art that I have seen. It's not unique to Kosho and it doesn't substitute for good technique training.

Interesting. From some of the other discussions I have seen in the EPAK category, this sounds like Ed Parker.

I don't study EPAK so I can't comment directly, but I have seen the EPAK people talk about concepts over technique (altho technique still does exist).

 

[Danjo]

Interesting. From some of the other discussions I have seen in the EPAK category, this sounds like Ed Parker.

I don't study EPAK so I can't comment directly, but I have seen the EPAK people talk about concepts over technique (altho technique still does exist).

Look, a concept is always present. "One punch, one kill." is a concept. But you don't hit someone with a concept. You practice Makiwara and punching endlessly to develop this. Same with anything else. So when someone asks, "What techniques does Kosho teach?" and they get the response of , "There are no techniques only concepts." it's BS. You don't hit someone with concepts, you hit them with techniques. So what techniques does Kosho teach? How are they similar or different from other arts?

 

[Flying Crane]

Look, a concept is always present. "One punch, one kill." is a concept. But you don't hit someone with a concept. You practice Makiwara and punching endlessly to develop this. Same with anything else. So when someone asks, "What techniques does Kosho teach?" and they get the response of , "There are no techniques only concepts." it's BS. You don't hit someone with concepts, you hit them with techniques. So what techniques does Kosho teach? How are they similar or different from other arts?

I think you and I are pretty much on the same page. I agree with the need for techniques, with overlying concepts, but I am not going to comment directly about Kosho because I haven't studied it and don't want to make comments that might be way off base. It just occured to me that the comment you made sounded like it could apply to Mr. Parker, based on what I have heard people say about him in other discussions, and the way at least some people practice his Kenpo. Just made the observation, that's all.

Come to think of it, I am probably going to be on the receiving end of wrath and hellfire from a bunch of EPAK people for that comment, especially since I haven't studied EPAK. It wasn't intended to be inflammatory, my apologies if it came off that way. It was just an observation.

 

[jdinca]

One possible way to settle this would be to contact Ray Arquilla. He's a 10th degree BB under Al Tracy. He also claims "#3 Master" under James Mitose. The reason I suggest him is because his claim is that he learned from Mitose while Mitose was a prisoner at Folsom State Prison, where GM Arquilla is/was a guard. I would expect he would know something of who his vistors were and I would also imagine that Mitose would have told him about Juchnik. Here's a link to his website, phone number is at the top.

http://www.martialartsites.com/irondragon1/index.cfm?page=8

 

[kroh]

The military drills it's soldiers on marksmanship. They do teach specific skills and how to apply them in various terrain. The soldiers being sent to the Middle East are trained in the Mojave Desert. They are not just given principles to follow. IMO the reason taht Kosho has devolved from the technique based instruction to the Concept based is due to the fact that Mitose was WEAK in technique and as more people became trained in the martial arts in the USA, the more obvious it became. So then he simply said, "well I teach concepts." etc. as a cop out. Concepts are a part of every martial art that I have seen. It's not unique to Kosho and it doesn't substitute for good technique training.

True that they do teach marksmanship. They don't teach marksmanship from trees when tanks are comming, and then specific techniques for shooting at helicopters and then for taking out a sniper in a window. They just teach shooting. And it is true that they also climatize. But they don't invent a specific "technique" to deal with every situation that is out there in every climate.

My point is that the concepts that kosho teaches apply directly to the format for how they deal with an encounter. Some systems teach techniques only. For example...some systems teach "Self defenses" that teach them specific counters to specific situations. Then if the situation is varied or not directly relating to the designed encounter, a new "technique" must be created to deal with the new stimuli. A principle based martial art starts with several basic techniques and shows the student how to apply them to different situations without having to create elaborate choreography to illustrate the point.

My JKD training was conducted the same way. Start by showing some one the basics. Once they have the basics down, no "kata" or choreography per se that is set in stone. The techniques are taught ad nauseum to a variety of stimuli. No techniques does not mean that the student stands there and tries to harmonize with the universe. Concept based training just implies that they teach a student the basics and how to employ those basics to any situations without the need for strict choreography. Shorinji Kempo is famous for this by using enbu rather than kata for illustrating their principles.

Principle based training is out there, but rare because you have to have a brain in your head. Hock Hochheim is famous for his line, "Fighting first, systems second." The point being learn the reason the principle works the way it does and you will then be able to come up with 10 other ways to deal with the same thing. Systems confine the way we deal with a fight while fighting is just fighting. The principle is true regardless of the "system specific technique."

As for Kosho's techniques, they are the same s every one else but they seem to apply them with the intention to use them. They don't do hundreds of techniques for years and then strap on the grear and fight like a kickboxer with no other training.

You also might have a point that Mitose's stuff was weak, but it is easy to say that after the fact. We really don't know unless we have some one that can corroberate. AS for the current practioners, they have had time to advance the art to its current incarnation. If you truely doubt their fighting ability, take one of the top dogs and try to throw a beat down. We would find out real fast what works and what doesn't.

So when someone asks, "What techniques does Kosho teach?" and they get the response of , "There are no techniques only concepts." it's BS

I have only been doing kosho for two months but I can say that it has base techniques. What it doesn't have is a bunch of predesigned choreography to illustrate every situation that might encounter. The techniques are practiced relentlessly in a manner that would allow you to apply them anywhere without the need for a ballet (no offense to any ballerinas in the audience).

Hope that helps,
Regards,
Walt

 

[BlackCatBonz]

The military drills it's soldiers on marksmanship. They do teach specific skills and how to apply them in various terrain. The soldiers being sent to the Middle East are trained in the Mojave Desert. They are not just given principles to follow. IMO the reason taht Kosho has devolved from the technique based instruction to the Concept based is due to the fact that Mitose was WEAK in technique and as more people became trained in the martial arts in the USA, the more obvious it became. So then he simply said, "well I teach concepts." etc. as a cop out. Concepts are a part of every martial art that I have seen. It's not unique to Kosho and it doesn't substitute for good technique training.

this is a real beginners viewpoint that cannot see beyond a technique.
while there are many systems that teach techniques.....there are just as many that do not.
Mitose didn't want to put self defense sequences in his first book for that reason.
learning by principle is often a lot harder than learning techniques by rote......and it soon separates the conceptual learners from the purely visual "show me how" types.

 

[kelly keltner]

One possible way to settle this would be to contact Ray Arquilla. He's a 10th degree BB under Al Tracy. He also claims "#3 Master" under James Mitose. The reason I suggest him is because his claim is that he learned from Mitose while Mitose was a prisoner at Folsom State Prison, where GM Arquilla is/was a guard. I would expect he would know something of who his vistors were and I would also imagine that Mitose would have told him about Juchnik. Here's a link to his website, phone number is at the top.

http://www.martialartsites.com/irondragon1/index.cfm?page=8

Arquilla wasn't a guard there at the same time Mitose was a prisoner. Arquilla met Mitose through Juchnik.

kk

 

[Danjo]

this is a real beginners viewpoint that cannot see beyond a technique.
while there are many systems that teach techniques.....there are just as many that do not.
Mitose didn't want to put self defense sequences in his first book for that reason.
learning by principle is often a lot harder than learning techniques by rote......and it soon separates the conceptual learners from the purely visual "show me how" types.

Well, I have a copy of Mitose's first book (the Plagiarazed one) and it is FULL of techniques and drills. It has nothing EXCEPT techniques and drills. Which systems do not teach techniques? If there are many of systems that do not, name three. I never said that I cannot see beyond techniques to the underlying principles. In fact, I said ALL martial arts have underlying concepts, but they have techniques that they teach and drill BASED on those concepts.

PS

Mitose's other book was plagiarazed also.---DW