Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo

[Kosho-Monk]

Prof. Shuras,

I'm not sure if Hanshi is back from Oregon yet. There was an extended training session for a couple or more days on the coast. I'm not exactly sure when Hanshi is expected back in at his dojo.

I'm not able to comment on anything that I believe you are looking for. I do know that the senior teachers of Kosho (not me) spent quite a lot of time in meetings with Hanshi. Perhaps one of them will be posting here soon.

Sorry that I cannot be of more help.


-John

 

[GAB]

Hi John, Thanks again, we talked to Hanshi today and he will be returning shortly, I guess we will have to wait and see.

Doc, seems to be overly anxious for someone who figures Juchink sucks, kind of funny.:idunno:

Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their favorite martial artist.

Regards, Gary

 

[Cook]

Heres some points to ponder(I'm sure that some of this stuff has already been said) 1- Mitose was by most accounts a pimp and by all accounts an extortionist and a murderer. Is it such a stretch to think that he may have told a fib or two about his martial background?
2- The Japanese are anal when it comes to keeping records. If sombody somewhere farts and a new system is created,even if it lasts only until his next bowel movement, it is written down. That said how come it's such a chore to find the necessary documentation to validate his claim. 20 plus generations--wheres the paperwork?
3- Hanshi is a tremendous practioner, a true master of his art, if he made it all up based on his time with Tracy Kenpo,Serrada Escrima,Kuntao Silat, Chi Ling Pai, and Tae Kwon Do and Mitoses' inspiration.Then accept that and move on.
The rest of this little missive meant to address some current Kai issues. As a life time member of the Kai and a person that has been around Hanshi and the Kosho Camp for roughly 15 to 18 years I feel I have the right to vent at least this once.
To answer "GojuGuy""(not me by the way), there is a certain amount of unrest in the Kai. A west coast Shihan(MB) turned his belt in before the Kosho Summit in Lake George NY. Jeff Driscoll turned his into Hanshi the night before the East Coast Gathering. In between Dave Lopriore didn't turn his belt in but quit altogether. Other Kai members on the East Coast have either quit or have distanced themselves over what they feel is undue financial burdens placed on them. I have decided to distance myself from the Kai because of what I feel is inappropriate and unBudolike behavior on the part of Hanshi and several of the Shihans. Specifically the treatment of Jeff Driscoll and Carl Long. For those of you that are aware of the situation you know what I mean. For those of you that are not call me (570)875-4838 or email me at [email protected]. Don't bother to run to Hanshi and tell on me I have already discussed this with him.
I've chosen to vent at this time because at the Gathering this past weekend my name came up as someone trying to cause trouble. I was quite content to follow the course of action I chose and leave the squabble to everyone else. But since my desire to be left alone wasn't honored I guess I'll wade in just this once. Please don't tell me about the martial saints we all know love and train with. I've been doing this for 36 years and can tell you that masters past present and future all have feet of clay to some degree. So save all your indignation for someone else. I've been around long enough to know where the bodies are buried.
This is my only posting so I will not be on to debate you. I have left my name and contact information, call me for a resonable discussion.
PS: The big news at the Gathering:
"Uncle" Larry is the Bucho of sword arts
Tony Disarro is the Event Bucho
Mike Brown is the Cultural Arts and Reishiki Bucho
Rick Wilmont is the Public Relations Bucho
That is all. Later.......................................................Cook

 

[Doc]

Heres some points to ponder(I'm sure that some of this stuff has already been said) 1- Mitose was by most accounts a pimp and by all accounts an extortionist and a murderer. Is it such a stretch to think that he may have told a fib or two about his martial background?
2- The Japanese are anal when it comes to keeping records. If sombody somewhere farts and a new system is created,even if it lasts only until his next bowel movement, it is written down. That said how come it's such a chore to find the necessary documentation to validate his claim. 20 plus generations--wheres the paperwork?
3- Hanshi is a tremendous practioner, a true master of his art, if he made it all up based on his time with Tracy Kenpo,Serrada Escrima,Kuntao Silat, Chi Ling Pai, and Tae Kwon Do and Mitoses' inspiration.Then accept that and move on.
The rest of this little missive meant to address some current Kai issues. As a life time member of the Kai and a person that has been around Hanshi and the Kosho Camp for roughly 15 to 18 years I feel I have the right to vent at least this once.
To answer "GojuGuy""(not me by the way), there is a certain amount of unrest in the Kai. A west coast Shihan(MB) turned his belt in before the Kosho Summit in Lake George NY. Jeff Driscoll turned his into Hanshi the night before the East Coast Gathering. In between Dave Lopriore didn't turn his belt in but quit altogether. Other Kai members on the East Coast have either quit or have distanced themselves over what they feel is undue financial burdens placed on them. I have decided to distance myself from the Kai because of what I feel is inappropriate and unBudolike behavior on the part of Hanshi and several of the Shihans. Specifically the treatment of Jeff Driscoll and Carl Long. For those of you that are aware of the situation you know what I mean. For those of you that are not call me (570)875-4838 or email me at [email protected]. Don't bother to run to Hanshi and tell on me I have already discussed this with him.
I've chosen to vent at this time because at the Gathering this past weekend my name came up as someone trying to cause trouble. I was quite content to follow the course of action I chose and leave the squabble to everyone else. But since my desire to be left alone wasn't honored I guess I'll wade in just this once. Please don't tell me about the martial saints we all know love and train with. I've been doing this for 36 years and can tell you that masters past present and future all have feet of clay to some degree. So save all your indignation for someone else. I've been around long enough to know where the bodies are buried.
This is my only posting so I will not be on to debate you. I have left my name and contact information, call me for a resonable discussion.
PS: The big news at the Gathering:
"Uncle" Larry is the Bucho of sword arts
Tony Disarro is the Event Bucho
Mike Brown is the Cultural Arts and Reishiki Bucho
Rick Wilmont is the Public Relations Bucho
That is all. Later.......................................................Cook

Me thinks there be a tremble in the force Luke. Anxious? Nah, just curious to see if the pattern has changed. It appears on the face of the post, it hasn't and money is playing a large part in the glitch in the Matrix. Surprise!

For the record; I didn't say Bruce SUCKS (present tense). I said he sucked (past tense) the day I saw him. I really don't know if he continued to suck after that, and I don't know if he still sucks, and could care less whether he continues or not to suck. But he sure sucked big time that day.

I suck
He, she, or it sucks
He, she, or it sucked (big time)

 

[GAB]

Hi Doc,

The last time you and I talked about this particular subject, you and Bruce in Hawaii, in the time frame you are talking about, and me saying you did not see Bruce and he did not see you. Because he was not there.

You called him the Yellow haired son?

Are we revisiting this to get this thread locked also?

What is your agenda here Doc? You could not be interested unless from what I have seen, to stir, so be it, stir away.

Old news Doc. This is funny.

Mitose met Bruce in the year of 77, Reyes died in the year 77, Bruce say's he was not at the time and place in 77 or what ever year. When did you and your Teacher, (Parker)feel threatened as to call Bruce, the yellow haired son of Mitose? Before or after Bruce met him?


Regards, Gary

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

When did you and your Teacher, (Parker)feel threatened as to call Bruce, the yellow haired son of Mitose? Before or after Bruce met him?


Regards, Gary

Parker had been doing his own thing for years, and intended to continue doing so for many more. Curious innuendo. I seriously doubt, however, that Mr. Parker ever felt "threatened" by much of anything Mr. Mitose & Mr. Juchnik were doing at the time.

Dave

 

[GAB]

Hi Dr Dave,

If you feel you want to use my words as a quote please feel free to do so, But it would be nice to use them so it is correct.

I don't believe that is the proper way to quote someone, Dr San.

But then what do I know since you are the Dr. right? Two of you on the same thread, comical.

Yes, Dr. Ed Parker was threatened, at least that is a story that we can discuss if you want to.

Regards, Gary

 

[Doc]

Hi Doc,
The last time you and I talked about this particular subject, you and Bruce in Hawaii, in the time frame you are talking about, and me saying you did not see Bruce and he did not see you. Because he was not there.

Well I do not know where you were at the time but I know where he was. You were not there.

You called him the Yellow haired son?

You are at best mistaken. At worse an intentional liar

Are we revisiting this to get this thread locked also?
What is your agenda here Doc? You could not be interested unless from what I have seen, to stir, so be it, stir away.
Old news Doc. This is funny.

As I recall, it was not I who started this thread. and you are not funny. It seems you participate in many locked threads.

Mitose met Bruce in the year of 77, Reyes died in the year 77, Bruce say's he was not at the time and place in 77 or what ever year.

According to whom? Once again, you were not there you simply choose to accept your cult leaders word over mine.

When did you and your Teacher, (Parker) feel threatened as to call Bruce, the yellow haired son of Mitose? Before or after Bruce met him?

What the hell are you talking about? No such thread exists except in your head with the other voices.

I have decided to take a lesson from my friend Joe and be very blunt. I think there is something wrong with you. I have seen you make posts that are incoherent, incomplete, off topic, and rambling nonsense. I have seen you assign quotations to people who have said no such thing and make racial comments just like the one above. I choose to not answer you because I think you have a problem. You are disingenuous, off your meds, or purposely argumentive. So, do not PM me anymore wondering why I do not respond to you. DO NOT PM me anymore and accuse me of being Michael Presario on another forum, and tell me what a bad person I am for doing that. DO NOT PM me anymore with your wild accusations and incoherent ramblings. I do not answer you because you have nothing to say. You are stirring the pot and answer your own posts talking to yourself in fragmented responses of nonsense. Seek some professional treatment, get back on the meds, check yourself back in, or put down the bong but don’t expect anyone here to respond to your uncivil rants and accusations with anything but disgust. You and the other personalities you post under deserve each other. Seek help, I am not your therapist, nor do I hear confessions. Maybe John Bishop will talk to you. It is clear to me he has the patience of a saint. I do not.
KMA

 

[GAB]

Doc,

Thanks Doc, I believe I was only on the one but I could be wrong.

10 point round for me 8 for you, sorry Doc. I only post as GAB on this one and Gary on another. Come on Doc, don't go there. I have not done that others do.

Yes I asked you about Presario and yes I apoligized to you about the misunderstanding, so you go off like that, pretty sad, but it was late and you probably were tired or had been drinking, sorry Doc.

Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

Doc,

Thanks Doc, I believe I was only on the one but I could be wrong

Regards, Gary

?????? What??

 

[tshadowchaser]

MOD WARNING
GENTELMEN PLEASE KEEP THE DISSCUSSION POLIT AND RESPECTFUL

 

[Karazenpo]

Okay, here's what it's come down too. Professor Eugene Sedeno's name was mentioned and as far as I'm concerned he's an "A-#1 guy, both as a martial artist and a person-the 'real deal'. Yes, he too was at the prison visits and we talked personally about them a couple years ago. Yet, Professor came back humble, respectful and had no hidden agenda. In all due respect to Hanshi's martial arts abilities, that is not the issue with me or in question, he appears to be an opportunist and took the 'ball and ran'. He saw, like others have done in the arts, a way to make a lot of money. Now, before anyone gets down on me for saying this I have been told this by a member of the Kai and another person who is acquainted with members of the Kai. I've heard things and this is a quote from a member: "When I go to visit Hanshi I leave my checkbook at home" and this comes from a guy that likes him! Studies under him! I'm sorry and no one has to believe me but this is the truth and I know some Kai members are smiling right now because they have experienced the same thing. This, by no means, puts down the system you are learning at all, not at all, because I too was involved in something similiar a long time ago. It reminds me of when Fred Villari at about the same rank as Hanshi (Fred was a nidan, I believe Hanshi was a sandan) had a hidden agenda (exploit the system and make a ton of money) with Professor Nick Cerio and in 1971 took Nick's original curriculum, added some things and ran with it! It is my feelings that is why we are constantly getting the run around on this Mitose thing just like we did when we asked Mr. Villari who he trained under (we were told Chow) and who he got his higher rankings from (secret island in the West Indies). Deja-vous! Financial empires are at stake so as usual, it's all about dollars and cents! Who's kidd'n who?

 

[Doc]

Okay, here's what it's come down too. Professor Eugene Sedeno's name was mentioned and as far as I'm concerned he's an "A-#1 guy, both as a martial artist and a person-the 'real deal'. Yes, he too was at the prison visits and we talked personally about them a couple years ago. Yet, Professor came back humble, respectful and had no hidden agenda. In all due respect to Hanshi's martial arts abilities, that is not the issue with me or in question, he appears to be an opportunist and took the 'ball and ran'. He saw, like others have done in the arts, a way to make a lot of money. Now, before anyone gets down on me for saying this I have been told this by a member of the Kai and another person who is acquainted with members of the Kai. I've heard things and this is a quote from a member: "When I go to visit Hanshi I leave my checkbook at home" and this comes from a guy that likes him! Studies under him! I'm sorry and no one has to believe me but this is the truth and I know some Kai members are smiling right now because they have experienced the same thing. This, by no means, puts down the system you are learning at all, not at all, because I too was involved in something similiar a long time ago. It reminds me of when Fred Villari at about the same rank as Hanshi (Fred was a nidan, I believe Hanshi was a sandan) had a hidden agenda (exploit the system and make a ton of money) with Professor Nick Cerio and in 1971 took Nick's original curriculum, added some things and ran with it! It is my feelings that is why we are constantly getting the run around on this Mitose thing just like we did when we asked Mr. Villari who he trained under (we were told Chow) and who he got his higher rankings from (secret island in the West Indies). Deja-vous! Financial empires are at stake so as usual, it's all about dollars and cents! Who's kidd'n who?

You're right Joe, and yes I known Eugene. Nice man and a good guy. You're right on the "money."

 

[GAB]

Well Doc,

I have looked for the statement regarding the 'Yellow haired son' and am unable to find it at this time. So I will have to give you that one, looks like I've got to quit listening to those voice's.

The other comments were and are not up to your standard, more like something I would do, but that is OK. Well, maybe you went a little to far but that is OK also, why, because I have been looking at the post when we first clashed, and I will have to admit I was pretty abrupt.

So with that said, I guess we will go down the road to the next fork and see which one we take. I apologize.

Regards, Gary

 

[GAB]

Hi Professor Joe,

Yes, it is about dollars and cents, that really is what a Capitalist society is all about.

I mean, are you not making money at this, in your school?

Some do it as a full time job, others don't, but all are into paying the bills that come due each and every month. Right or wrong?

I see on Al Tracy's site he is opening more schools, claims in the hundreds in the next few years.

I see the term Mc Dojo's, I don't see Bruce doing it that way, he is actually pretty reasonable. Regarding many things that are very expensive in this BUSINESS.

I am not in this to make money I am a student, I am not even involved with Kenpo at this time I am into FMA. I have been involved in Kaji and Aikido as a necessary evil, for my defense and others.
I like FMA because it is pretty much where I am at, I like the work out and the fact is, it has a lot of good things going for it.

Is or was Hanshi Bruce in it for the money yes and no. He has a desire to learn and he has a desire to teach. When he went to that Prison it was a new venture, because he did that, Mitose gets a lot more press then he should.

Actually Hanshi Bruce is sought after for seminars and he is doing just fine with what he wants to do. One thing he does not do is type on the internet.
He doesn't and won't.

Making money in a capitalist society, what a crime.

Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

Gab

It seems we have a double standard
Parker cult- Tracy's sex goddess not cult
Parker Money Grubber - Hanshi Surviving in a capitalist society
Parker booted his Black Belts - Hanshi "unrest" in the Kai.

Standards are great - Equal Standards are better

 

[BlackCatBonz]

too many people are eager to point a shameful finger at someone else, and it makes me sick. the martial arts community is like any other artsy community. on the surface when we hob-nob around its all smiles and handshakes, but when the doors are closed human nature's ugly side appears. here are a few jokes that i think are as appropo to martial artists as they are to musicians.
how many guitar players does it take to change a light bulb.......5, one to do it, and 4 to stand around and say how they would do it differently.
how many singers does it take to change a lightbulb.......1, and the whole world revolves around him.
insert martial artist, painter, what have you, it all works.
there are a precious few people around who love music for music, art for the art, martial arts for what they have to offer.
too many times the so-called purists get into a pissing match, but the end result is just urine.
to the people that wanna pick apart kosho, go and do it in private, and same to those that cant stand what the ed parker people are doing. all of you know who you are, and if you dont, then obviously you are one of the people in the 2nd joke. you have put yourself on some phony martial arts pedestal that rest of the world couldnt give two s**ts about.
the people in these systems are quite happy, and enjoy the things they are doing, to have some joe schmo constantly pick apart something they love.
as far as kosho is concerned, i concentrate on the now, not then.
as far as mitose sensei's influence, leave it at that. if someone had read his book, and not known the man or his doings, they would think, "hey, what a great way to live one's life by."
instead, they say the lessons mean nothing because of the man it came from. you want a cult? people still go to the catholic church even after the sins propogated against their sons and daughters, thats a crime. the behaviour exhibited by some martial artists is a crime.
im not going to quote bible scripture, but it all boils down to......be nice to each other, for heaven's sake.

shawn

 

[kelly keltner]

Well Doc,

I have looked for the statement regarding the 'Yellow haired son' and am unable to find it at this time. So I will have to give you that one, looks like I've got to quit listening to those voice's.

The other comments were and are not up to your standard, more like something I would do, but that is OK. Well, maybe you went a little to far but that is OK also, why, because I have been looking at the post when we first clashed, and I will have to admit I was pretty abrupt.

So with that said, I guess we will go down the road to the next fork and see which one we take. I apologize.

Regards, Gary

I believe the verbage was more like "the heir apparent"

kelly

 

[Karazenpo]

Hey guys, I'll try to respond the best I can to several of the posts rather each individually. I'm sincere when I say some good points were made and taken. Okay, making money. Yes, we (Kathy and I) make money to pay the bills and sometimes a little extra here and there. Why? Are we not successful? Yes, we are. I opened Milford's doors on February 1st, 1978 and it's now late in 2004. So, I would say successful. We're more martial arts instructors than business people. One student who has had some hardships ran up a tab for over $800 and he's still with us, how many other schools would have shown him the door? We haven't seen the money yet, either! I'm sure some of you out there have similar examples also.That's why we run it steady but part time. This way we are not forced to compromise our principles and 'heart' to put food on the table and clothes on our back. The only compromise we have ever made over the years was to tone down the 'rough & tumble' Kajukenbo/Karazenpo type of training due to civil liability more than student retention. Like all others I've heard from, to survive we all had to tone down a little. Our quality control however is still not compromised and we do run much tougher classes and testing than many of our competitiors. Now, another comment on 'making money' and not being involved in the McDojo franchises. Like myself breaking off from a franchise chain almost 24 years ago, so didn't Hanshi with Tracy's. As a matter of fact, so did many. I have no problem with that. Now, one cannot be narrow minded and think franchises are the only way to make money off the martial arts because nothing can be further from the truth. Personalized video tape series selling for something in the field of $1500 and when the student receives it he finds it's really not personalized at all. You can get the same thing from Panther Productions for a fraction of the cost. Seminars, tournaments, gatherings, books, association fees, certification fees, t-shirts, jackets, hats, patches and the list goes on. Yes, some of these fees are TOTALLY legit and many of us have them, I have no problem with that either but I am answering the question put forward or the implication I should say that McDojos are the only way to make money. 'Supply and demand'. Many kenpoists have searched in the past to get closer to their roots by studying under their instructor's instructor and even his instructor and so forth down the line. I hear many questions at seminars and get togethers over the years of something like: "What is the original Kenpo?" Now, if someone could jump on and ignite this 'demand' that's out there and create a supply to feed it, well, you make money, a lot of money. That's all I mean't. There are many ways to 'prostitute' the art, not just in McDojos. WAIT! I am not saying the Kosho art is being prostituted at all, I wouldn't know that, just those involved know if they feel their art has been compromised too much. Yes, perhaps prostitute is too harsh ( but it was a term we used years in the arts), 'overly compromised' would be better. Ofcourse, some will respond back and say it is not. Fine but should we all believe that? Why? Well, to answer another statement made about martial artists getting together and all shaking hands and patting each other on the back, all smiles then when they leave and the door closes the knives start flying. I agree with this statement and now pertain it to the question of 'sincerity'? Back to 'some will respond and say 'no' . I have met Kosho people , good people, very talented people who publicly defend the Kai but privately complain about it's focus on 'making money' over sincerely propagating the arts! I have heard this first hand. Businessman first, martial arts instructor second. This did not come from my mouth but some of you out there and those reading, respectfully, know who you are. Now, the Ed Parker thing mentioned by Gary, I have nothing to do with that and have no double standard in my views which sometimes gets me into arguments with people. If there is a double standard in what I'm involved in and it's beyond my control, I don't defend it but just say, 'good point, you're right'. No art is perfect in the way it is propragated because it's all about the human condition and we have many flaws, however, we all can be judged on a scale of 1-10, if you know what I mean. One other thing, maybe others some of you have met have knocked the 'Kosho' art but I for one don't and never will. It's a fine art and imho, after you scrape beneath the surface, all these Hawaiian-derived kenpo arts that came from the Miose/Chow/Emperado lineage are way more similiar than different. Again, my opinion. It is the practitioners perspective or where their emphasis lies that really distinguishes one kenpo art from another. Oh, I almost forgot. Remember guys, all I ever was trying to get was a sraight answer on the history of our roots for my teaching purposes and my own knowledge, that's it! That's all I ever asked for and it 'mushrooms' into all this B.S. Why is it so hard to answer those three simple questions I proposed in an earlier post? 1) Proof of Mitose as the 21st decendant of his family art called Kosho 2) Proof of him training under his maternal grandfather in Japan 3) Mitose's Okinawan ties to what he taught? That's it! Like I said before, there's not another lineage that I know of that can't answer simple questions like that in regards to their history!!! but all I get here is the 'runaround', 'word games' and 'secret squirrel'!!!

 

[GAB]

Well said BlackCatBonz,

Kai, Thats true, I am glad you brought that up.

If we all want to just get along, this board would be a good place to do it, but we have different ideas and some times make statements, or mistakes, we apologize, with a PM or on the forum, so big deal.

The thing I am quite taken aback by, is that some one might ramble, make a mistake, make a statement, then this other person will go off.

Then some how the person, who does all the name calling, and flips out can get by with it because of their position, in an art, or their longivity in one or two systems, their length of time on this board, or the size of their girth.
Yes, I did and do believe Hanshi Bruce, when he tells me he was not at a certain event, it also falls into knowing when certain persons were not around and others were. In my opinion, I believe him, and not Doc.

Someone takes a statement or a word out of context and then tries to play on that, and that is not right but it does happen, is it a biggie? No.

Because I will say I think I might have made a mistake or maybe not, does that deserve a fly off the handle?

If you don't stay perfectly on the subject matter, does that give someone a reason to call names?

Myself or any other person I have seen, do what Doc does in numerous threads, would be suspended, yet he goes around, and around with this diatribe. You don't see me calling people names.

I got suspended for saying "got it" three times and not showing respect, (yea, right).

Talk about equal standards, me thinks not.

The moderators say they are taking a stronger stance on the exact thing Doc has done, he will still be doing it, and feeling safe, me thinks that is pretty sad.

I don't dislike you Doc, I don't dislike the persons I am debating, that is very foolish, does not make sense to me.

I do dislike some of the hypocrisy, and hyperbole, so I will say something about it. I know, two way street.

I don't mind being criticized, if it is OK for me to be critical also.

But you won't find many post's with that kind of language, and not some sort of disipline taking place, oh well, just an observation, (and I don't mean the thread being locked).

Have a good one, as they say. KMA 367 Doc. We both know what it means, right?

Regards, Gary

PS. Doc, I did not say I was funny, I said it was funny, and also, what racial remark are you referring to?
I would appreciate it if you would clairify that one, rather than just say it.
I will thank you, ahead of time. G.