Kosho Shorei Ryu

[Benjp]

Question for the Kosho People: Does the art include Kata of any kind?

Yes, lots of kata. Both (this list isn't comprehensive) empty hand and kobudo.

I might also be inclined to call yoga, shodo, and shiatsu kata as well.

Regards,

Ben

 

[Flying Crane]

Yes, lots of kata. Both (this list isn't comprehensive) empty hand and kobudo.

I might also be inclined to call yoga, shodo, and shiatsu kata as well.

Regards,

Ben

Then I would say that Kosho is really very similar to the Chinese approach to training. We learn forms and develop fighting techniques from those forms. But we do not have a catalog of self defense techniques that we rely on. It is more open to the individual's interpretation. But the root of the training is centered around forms.

It seems that the Kenpo systems that stemmed from Mr. Parker are an anomaly with regards to the quantity of Self Defense techniques. A friend of mine who trained in Tae Kwon Do many years ago told me they had about 40 self defense techniques total, in their system. This is much reduced compared to the Kenpo systems that can have them by the truck loads. I guess other systems do have them but they are fewer and don't necessarily become the primary focus of training. Interesting.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Then I would say that Kosho is really very similar to the Chinese approach to training. We learn forms and develop fighting techniques from those forms. But we do not have a catalog of self defense techniques that we rely on. It is more open to the individual's interpretation. But the root of the training is centered around forms.

It seems that the Kenpo systems that stemmed from Mr. Parker are an anomaly with regards to the quantity of Self Defense techniques. A friend of mine who trained in Tae Kwon Do many years ago told me they had about 40 self defense techniques total, in their system. This is much reduced compared to the Kenpo systems that can have them by the truck loads. I guess other systems do have them but they are fewer and don't necessarily become the primary focus of training. Interesting.

this is a pretty good explanation of how we would do things in kosho.

 

[Flying Crane]

Would you say there is something about Kosho that makes it stand out from the other arts? If the basic approach to training is similar to many Chinese, Japanese, and Okinawan systems, what about Kosho makes it different? Are there drills, or some other approach to assimiliating the material from the kata that seems to work especially well, and that other systems don't do?

 

[Doc]

First, we have to assume Tracy Kenpo does in fact trace its lineage back to James Mitose Kosho Shorei Ryu.

That depends on what you call "lineage," or how you choose to define it.

Now if Mitose trained Chow, and Chow trained Parker, what was actually being taught?

Your statement seems to suggest that the "knowledge" followed this "lineage progression." I think it is important to point out that by Parker's own admission, he left the heavily influenced Japanese/Okinawan perspective he learned from Chow and switched to a toatally Chinese perspective after a few short years on his own on the mainland. He gave Prof. Chow credit for his realistic concept based on technique rather than abstract kata. This means the Knowledge in the "Parker Knowledge Lineage" system begins with Ed Parker as its innovator. His influences, (good or bad) are a benchmark significance. Clearly what he did alone was unique in martial arts history, in that no one had ever done it before.

... but I do know that EPAK has a lot of self defense techniques that still have a lot of similarity to Tracy kenpo.

I suggests you have it backwards sir.

This suggests that it would have been no later in the lineage then Parker. So maybe Chow or Parker codified the techniques?

We must abandon this idea that there was this "system" that flowed down from, some say Mitose, others say Chow. With regard to Parker and Chow, Parker created his own multiple systems derived from Chinese and Samoan masters. He credits Chow for giving him his start, but not for his systems. The Tracy's came from Parker, and only orchestrated their "switch" to the Mitose lineage after they left Ed Parker.

Could it be possible that the entire curriculum of the EPAK and Tracy and other related kenpo lineages were the result of a misunderstanding?

I can only speak for Ed Parker Sr. and the answer is emphatically "No!" Parker began a process of codification on multiple arts until he passed away far beyond anyone. Up until his passing, no one had written more.

 

[Flying Crane]

Thanks Doc,

I am writing of course from the perspective that I have, and I am only the first to claim gaps in my knowledge. I appreciate your input.

I do not recall ever hearing of Mr. Parker's ties with other Chinese teachers prior to linking up here on Martialtalk, and the Samoan reference has caught me completely by surprise. I have Mr. Parker's Infinite Insights books, and while it has been a number of years since I have read them, I don't recall any references to these teachers. At any rate, I certainly understand that I know very little about Mr. Parker and his arts.

With regard to EPAK techniques being similar to Tracy techniques, I was again speaking from my point of reference. I trained Tracy, so I see similarity in EPAK, but am not trying to imply one from the other. Just making observations based on where I have been before, so to speak.

Anyway, thank you for adding to the picture in this discussion. Your insights and knowledge and memories of Mr. Parker and his arts are appreciated.

 

[Doc]

Thanks Doc,
I am writing of course from the perspective that I have, and I am only the first to claim gaps in my knowledge. I appreciate your input.

Of course as we all do sir.

I do not recall ever hearing of Mr. Parker's ties with other Chinese teachers prior to linking up here on Martialtalk, and the Samoan reference has caught me completely by surprise.

The Samoan reference was to Haumea Lefiti who was a student of Ark Yuey Wong also, master of Splashing Hands, and Ed Parker's senior.

I have Mr. Parker's Infinite Insights books, and while it has been a number of years since I have read them, I don't recall any references to these teachers.

Infinite Insights are interesting books on the concepts that should drive all arts, depending upon their perspective, but there greater interest is the historical context of Parker at the time. It is not supposed to be a timeline historical treatise on his training. Among the ancients, it is common knowledge. However, because myself and Steve LaBounty are the only "ancients" that post regularly, it would not be a normal topic of discussion. Read "Secrets of Chinese Karate." Its publication signals the switch in Parker's thinking, study, and personal lineage.

At any rate, I certainly understand that I know very little about Mr. Parker and his arts.

Unfortunately sir, that is true of most including his own Kenpo Lineage, and its derivatives.

With regard to EPAK techniques being similar to Tracy techniques, I was again speaking from my point of reference. I trained Tracy, so I see similarity in EPAK, but am not trying to imply one from the other. Just making observations based on where I have been before, so to speak.

Point well taken sir. Keeping poking.

 

[Flying Crane]

Read "Secrets of Chinese Karate." Its publication signals the switch in Parker's thinking, study, and personal lineage.

Thank you, and I will see if I can track down a copy of this one.

 

[Doc]

Thank you, and I will see if I can track down a copy of this one.

This book was published in 1963 after "Kenpo-Karate," (61) his first book. It was so good it was used as the basis for the opening episodes of the TV show "Kung fu." A major uncredited contributor to this book was Jimmy Woo, who also studied with Ark Wong and was associated with Ed Parker until they parted company. Two of Parker's first black belts went with Jimmy Woo, (Rich Montgomery, and Rick Flores) as Parker began to dabble with the idea of "commercial" aspects of the arts, while he continued to work on other more personal aspects of the arts as well.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Would you say there is something about Kosho that makes it stand out from the other arts?
1.If the basic approach to training is similar to many Chinese, Japanese, and Okinawan systems, what about Kosho makes it different?
2.Are there drills, or some other approach to assimiliating the material from the kata that seems to work especially well, and that other systems don't do?

1. im not really sure......there are plenty of things that make it similar and other things that make it different.
its like mantis kung fu, or white crane......they have their stylistic differences and similarities.
2. kosho has drills that are specific to kosho......i havent seen them in other systems, nor have i seen other systems approach self defense like we do........thats not to say it isnt there, i just havent seen it the same way.

 

[Flying Crane]

1. im not really sure......there are plenty of things that make it similar and other things that make it different.
its like mantis kung fu, or white crane......they have their stylistic differences and similarities.
2. kosho has drills that are specific to kosho......i havent seen them in other systems, nor have i seen other systems approach self defense like we do........thats not to say it isnt there, i just havent seen it the same way.

Fair enough. Unless one has studied everthing out there, this can be hard to answer.

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Wow, what a lot of posts! I think the best statement made was on page 3:

"I am looking to learn, not fight. Fighting is easy; conversation is, apparently, hard."

We can all learn from this. To me, this statement is Kosho and what the arts are really about. Fighting is really easy. Just read the last 9 pages and you can see why so many people get into fights.

Just my thoughts.


With respect,
John Evans

 

[Kosho-Monk]

I had another thought on Kosho and I'd like to share it.

A question was asked by Flying Crane if the art of Kosho had any katas in it. It was answered by Ben when he said, yes, lot's of them.

I do not completely agree with that answer.

In my opinion the art of Kosho doesn't have any set techniques at all. That means no set katas either. Yes, Hanshi Juchnik teaches a ton of katas, but pretty much all of them are taught in other martial arts as well. He did create the 3 Mountain katas, but you certainly are not required to learn them, or any other, for rank advancement.

In Kosho the focus is more on understanding movement not memorizing movements.

Just my thoughts.


With respect,
John Evans

 

[Flying Crane]

In my opinion the art of Kosho doesn't have any set techniques at all. That means no set katas either. Yes, Hanshi Juchnik teaches a ton of katas, but pretty much all of them are taught in other martial arts as well. He did create the 3 Mountain katas, but you certainly are not required to learn them, or any other, for rank advancement.

In Kosho the focus is more on understanding movement not memorizing movements.

Just my thoughts.


With respect,
John Evans

How would you characterize the system with regard to ranking? Is there any kind of established, solid curriculum that is used to bestow rank, or is a more nebulous judgement regarding a student's ability to react effectively to a threat?

 

[Kosho-Monk]

"How would you characterize the system with regard to ranking? Is there any kind of established, solid curriculum that is used to bestow rank, or is a more nebulous judgement regarding a student's ability to react effectively to a threat?"

First I would say that there is no Kosho Ryu Kempo "System" of Martial Arts. The ideas of Kosho are taught by methods that are completely up to the individual teachers. Since most (if not all, I'm not sure) Kosho Ryu teachers today (at least in Hanshi Juchnik's group) all have prior experience in other arts, I have seen many use their old system's curriculums with some changes. (This is what I have done)

To be honest there is no set rank standard, that I can see, in the Kosho group I belong to. Most of the black belts I have had contact with are extremely talented - but each in their own way. But if you walked into 5 Kosho schools you will most likely find 5 different curriculums, and 5 different sets of rank promotion standards. This makes it challenging for students wishing to transfer from one Kosho school to another.

The great thing about the way I, and others, teach Kosho is that we can show practitioners from all arts how to add in the Kosho Ryu ideas to what they are already teaching. So for me I took my Shaolin Kempo curriculum and "Kosho-ized" it. I have had great success with this and my students who started off in Shaolin Kempo didn't have much transition problems when I changed. I've also been able to teach seminars at other Shaolin Kempo schools and highlight the Kosho ideas using techniques they are familiar with.

In closing I will say that the way Kosho is taught does not fit everyone's ideal way of teaching students. However, I like the freedom (at a black belt level) to explore the ideas taught more openly. I know some black belts in other styles that would never change a technique to make it better for them. Their teacher would not allow it.

Just my thoughts.


With respect,
John Evans

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Hey John,
i take it you do not use any of the Kosho student handbooks.
when i first started studying kosho in 98....my teacher at the time gave everyone student handbooks that had requirements for the different belt levels that included various kata and the ability to demonstrate certain aspects of the art.
have you seen these handbooks?

 

[Benjp]

Hi Mr. Evans,

Thanks for your response. I've always wondered why the Kosho curriculum contained kata and I came up with the following conclusion.

In our dojo, there is a distinction between kata and bunkai. At one point, I too saw kata as prescribed technique to self defense. That was until I asked which bunkai is applicable a or b, and the answer was yes. Then I was shown bunkai c, d, e, f, etc...

So in my mind, Kosho kata *is* a study of motion. Not only are the bunkai interpretations a study, but also studying one's own motion. Do I move better when moving in low stances, or worse? What kind of transitions make me weak and to which directions? Which side do I favor? Etc.

Is this why Kosho has kata? I'm just a Kosho newbie so please feel free to correct me .

Thanks,

Ben

P.S. It's great to be able to discuss Kosho Ryu online with the knowledge base offered here thanks to all who contribute!

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Hi Shawn,

I've been a student of Kosho for about 10-11 years now and can honestly say that I have never seen one of these student manuals. I've see (and own) the rank tapes, but I do not follow them. Where might one obtain copies of these manuals you speak of?

However, even though there are rank tapes and manuals... would you agree there is no real standard curriculum and/or rank promotion methodology?

Thanks.


With respect,
John Evans

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Hi Ben,

Kata, in my opinion, is very important. I agree with your thoughts on why we practice kata. I do not believe we need to memorize 50 or 100 katas in order to understand movement. In fact, I would argue that the more memorization one is required to do, the lower quality of integration one would have with each kata. Kind of a jack of all trades, master of none idea.

I agree, too, that it is nice to discuss Kosho without having to talk about history. I'm more of the present kind of guy! I prefer to talk about concepts and other ideas that we are doing now.

Take care.


With respect,
John Evans


PS. Please, just call me John. With only a little over 20 years studying martial arts, I'm still a newbie, too!

PPS. Hey, I just noticed you train with Sensei Troy Soles... is that correct? You are in good hands. He's an excellent teacher and a genuinely great person. In fact, I don't think I met anyone from Oregon that wasn't nice. Hmmm. Perhaps there is something in the water?

 

[Flying Crane]

"How would you characterize the system with regard to ranking? Is there any kind of established, solid curriculum that is used to bestow rank, or is a more nebulous judgement regarding a student's ability to react effectively to a threat?"

First I would say that there is no Kosho Ryu Kempo "System" of Martial Arts. The ideas of Kosho are taught by methods that are completely up to the individual teachers. Since most (if not all, I'm not sure) Kosho Ryu teachers today (at least in Hanshi Juchnik's group) all have prior experience in other arts, I have seen many use their old system's curriculums with some changes. (This is what I have done)

To be honest there is no set rank standard, that I can see, in the Kosho group I belong to. Most of the black belts I have had contact with are extremely talented - but each in their own way. But if you walked into 5 Kosho schools you will most likely find 5 different curriculums, and 5 different sets of rank promotion standards. This makes it challenging for students wishing to transfer from one Kosho school to another.

The great thing about the way I, and others, teach Kosho is that we can show practitioners from all arts how to add in the Kosho Ryu ideas to what they are already teaching. So for me I took my Shaolin Kempo curriculum and "Kosho-ized" it. I have had great success with this and my students who started off in Shaolin Kempo didn't have much transition problems when I changed. I've also been able to teach seminars at other Shaolin Kempo schools and highlight the Kosho ideas using techniques they are familiar with.

In closing I will say that the way Kosho is taught does not fit everyone's ideal way of teaching students. However, I like the freedom (at a black belt level) to explore the ideas taught more openly. I know some black belts in other styles that would never change a technique to make it better for them. Their teacher would not allow it.

Just my thoughts.


With respect,
John Evans

Gotcha. thankyou for that answer. I am beginning to get a picture of Kosho as an art that allows for a lot of leeway and interpretation and inclusion.