BlackCatBonz
Master Black Belt
the whole trias issue is pushing this way off course
Kosho Ryu?
- Thread starter LegLockGuy
- Start date
Danjo
Master Black Belt
Well it's all related to Kosho Ryu, which is the subject of this thread.
As, to the rest of your earlier post...we're not really going to get along here Shawn. You think that my interest is feigned and I think your whole back story is made up. We're at an impasse with each other and should probably refrain from commenting on each other's posts.
opcorn:koshonokenza
White Belt
Hello again everyone, I think that it's time some things be explained to everyone, including those speaking on behalf of Kosho Ryu.
This post is most directly aimed toward answering many of the excellent questions posted by Danjo. Lets start by explaining that "Kosho Ryu Kempo" is a martial art style with a set minimum required curriculum to Black Belt ,regardless of what other people may be saying.This was set by Hanshi Bruce Juchnik himself over 20 years ago! Weather people follow or are ranked in accordance to these minimum requirements is a whole other issue.. "Kosho Shorei Ryu" is a philosophical self study,not a martial art! I think many people making posts here are confused about this. The whole system "Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo"Is a complete study including But not limited to,The martial arts,Brush calligraph "shodo",Healing arts "shiatsu,Anma,herbology",Phiolosophy,meditation etc. Yes ,Kosho Ryu is a style. It is kempo that is not a style. Kempo Means fist law or fist study Kosho ryu is the style or method to follow that study. ie Wado Ryu Kempo,Shorinji Kempo etc.
Much of the early development of Kosho Ryu, (Post Bruce Juchnik)was developed based on directives set forth by Mitose to Bruce Juchnik. Because of the limited time that Hanshi spent with Mitose (appx 5years) and because of the limitations due to Mitose Sensei's incarceration (sp) Hanshi did not get a written set curriculum from Mitose i.e. kata ,techniques,etc that were passed down through the generations from master to teacher. Instead Mitose showed Hanshi and explained to him that certain things needed to be studied to better understand Kosho Ryu. i.e. Kata, Swordsmanship,History,religion,healing arts etc.. Through the concepts and principles Mitose had given him, Juchnik Hanshi began his path toward preserving and spreading the study of Kosho ryu. If you want questions answered concerning the entire base curriculum of Kosho Ryu Kempo, I will gladly give you the oppurtunity to contact Hanshi Juchnik to get a copy of that curriculum. It is a bit too much to list here!
Those of you posting comments on behalf of Kosho Ryu,please be mindful of the things that you post. As they may reflect all of those who practice Kosho Ryu. Keep in mind that information that you think is accurate should be checked with Juchnik Hanshi or one of the Senior representitives of Kosho Ryu before you post to everyone as fact. One of the great things about Hanshi Juchnik is that he allows the practitioner to explore the study of Kosho in there own way. Some people forget that Hanshi spent years on his own path to reach the understandings he has today. This included studying many other art forms. Training with many great teachers .And training his basics religiously.
I will say this however, It is true that if you want to better understand Kosho Ryu, Where it comes from,how its taught,how effective it is as a martial art,then you need to stop asking questions on the net and go to a seminar or class with one of the senior representitives of Kosho Ryu. It has been my opinion that you can't count on someone else's opinion. You have to get out there and experience it for your self. Of course practitioners of Kosho Ryu are going to be biased and think Kosho is the greatest. The same way an Aikido practitioner will think their art is the greatest.
As far as how Kosho Ryu is taught from school to school. I really can't answer for other school owners. I would hope that they are doing at least the same types of drills,basics,Katas and Sub arts that are taught within the Kosho Ryu Curriculm. Many schools have crossed over from other martial arts to become Kosho Ryu Schools including myself.At my school I teach fundamentals based on the octagon, punching ,kicking, locking ,throwing from all ranges. history ,healing arts ,Kumite ,Kata and all the principles and concepts within the art.I teach strictly out of the Kosho Ryu curriculum set forth By Hanshi.
I hope this helps clear up some of the questions that were asked earlier and hope the rest of the threads can remain civil and informitive.
-Tony DiSarro
This post is most directly aimed toward answering many of the excellent questions posted by Danjo. Lets start by explaining that "Kosho Ryu Kempo" is a martial art style with a set minimum required curriculum to Black Belt ,regardless of what other people may be saying.This was set by Hanshi Bruce Juchnik himself over 20 years ago! Weather people follow or are ranked in accordance to these minimum requirements is a whole other issue.. "Kosho Shorei Ryu" is a philosophical self study,not a martial art! I think many people making posts here are confused about this. The whole system "Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo"Is a complete study including But not limited to,The martial arts,Brush calligraph "shodo",Healing arts "shiatsu,Anma,herbology",Phiolosophy,meditation etc. Yes ,Kosho Ryu is a style. It is kempo that is not a style. Kempo Means fist law or fist study Kosho ryu is the style or method to follow that study. ie Wado Ryu Kempo,Shorinji Kempo etc.
Much of the early development of Kosho Ryu, (Post Bruce Juchnik)was developed based on directives set forth by Mitose to Bruce Juchnik. Because of the limited time that Hanshi spent with Mitose (appx 5years) and because of the limitations due to Mitose Sensei's incarceration (sp) Hanshi did not get a written set curriculum from Mitose i.e. kata ,techniques,etc that were passed down through the generations from master to teacher. Instead Mitose showed Hanshi and explained to him that certain things needed to be studied to better understand Kosho Ryu. i.e. Kata, Swordsmanship,History,religion,healing arts etc.. Through the concepts and principles Mitose had given him, Juchnik Hanshi began his path toward preserving and spreading the study of Kosho ryu. If you want questions answered concerning the entire base curriculum of Kosho Ryu Kempo, I will gladly give you the oppurtunity to contact Hanshi Juchnik to get a copy of that curriculum. It is a bit too much to list here!
Those of you posting comments on behalf of Kosho Ryu,please be mindful of the things that you post. As they may reflect all of those who practice Kosho Ryu. Keep in mind that information that you think is accurate should be checked with Juchnik Hanshi or one of the Senior representitives of Kosho Ryu before you post to everyone as fact. One of the great things about Hanshi Juchnik is that he allows the practitioner to explore the study of Kosho in there own way. Some people forget that Hanshi spent years on his own path to reach the understandings he has today. This included studying many other art forms. Training with many great teachers .And training his basics religiously.
I will say this however, It is true that if you want to better understand Kosho Ryu, Where it comes from,how its taught,how effective it is as a martial art,then you need to stop asking questions on the net and go to a seminar or class with one of the senior representitives of Kosho Ryu. It has been my opinion that you can't count on someone else's opinion. You have to get out there and experience it for your self. Of course practitioners of Kosho Ryu are going to be biased and think Kosho is the greatest. The same way an Aikido practitioner will think their art is the greatest.
As far as how Kosho Ryu is taught from school to school. I really can't answer for other school owners. I would hope that they are doing at least the same types of drills,basics,Katas and Sub arts that are taught within the Kosho Ryu Curriculm. Many schools have crossed over from other martial arts to become Kosho Ryu Schools including myself.At my school I teach fundamentals based on the octagon, punching ,kicking, locking ,throwing from all ranges. history ,healing arts ,Kumite ,Kata and all the principles and concepts within the art.I teach strictly out of the Kosho Ryu curriculum set forth By Hanshi.
I hope this helps clear up some of the questions that were asked earlier and hope the rest of the threads can remain civil and informitive.
-Tony DiSarro
Danjo
Master Black Belt
Mr. DiSarro,
Thanks for your thorough reply to the question(s). This is the first time that I have heard that there was a difference between "Kosho Ryu Kempo" and "Kosho Shorei Ryu" and "Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo" etc. You've brought honesty to the table here and it makes the picture much more clear. It explains how and why there is a difference between what Mitose taught originally and what is taught now by Juchnik's group and avoids the esoteric mumbo jumbo that often accompanies these discussions. Thanks again.
---Dan
Thanks for your thorough reply to the question(s). This is the first time that I have heard that there was a difference between "Kosho Ryu Kempo" and "Kosho Shorei Ryu" and "Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo" etc. You've brought honesty to the table here and it makes the picture much more clear. It explains how and why there is a difference between what Mitose taught originally and what is taught now by Juchnik's group and avoids the esoteric mumbo jumbo that often accompanies these discussions. Thanks again.
---Dan
Kosho-Monk
Green Belt
Hi Tony,
Great post. I do have some comments and questions for you.
Let's talk curriculum first. Yes, Hanshi has a set a curriculum but I have not met many Kosho practitioners that actually have all the "requirements" for the ranks. This leads me to believe that the curriculum is not really the important part of the study of Kosho, but rather the concepts or natural laws that are to be learned via the curriculum. What I'm saying is that it seems as long as students are grasping the "real" lessons of Kosho (90, zig zag, move twice, etc., etc.) then memorization of the curriculum is secondary.
Also - how many students are truly able to brush out all of the required kanji, know all of the history, understand shiatsu at the level required, have all the weapons katas, etc.? I've been to enough Kosho seminars and Gatherings to know that these "requirements" are not really required.
At my dojo we practice the drills, katas, etc. to the best of my abilities. And in doing so I believe we are on the correct path of Kosho studies. And since I hold a nidan in Kosho, given to me by Hanshi, I have to assume I am on the right path. Otherwise why would I have the rank?
Do we know if Mitose had a set curriculum that he used to teach? Certain things in certain orders? He did write a manuscript to teach the important aspects of Kosho - which I have - that states certain things should be done in a certain order - but they are all drills or other kinds of exercises (mental and physical).
The bulk of the kata done within the Kosho ryu have been added in by Hanshi. Mitose didn't do that many katas but I also don't believe that bulk is better. In fact, I would argue that the more a student must memorize, the less time he or she has to spend on really gaining knowledge from the practice.
On the posting of Kosho here - I agree that we must all be mindfull to, at the very least, state that what we say is our understanding of Kosho or the way we do things in our dojo. I agree that there are many different "versions" of Kosho out there, if you judge it by the way it is taught from dojo to dojo. Hanshi Juchnik is the authority of Kosho within the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai and only he (and maybe a couple others) have the "final" say on what Kosho (as taught within the Kai) is.
Many of us have encouraged many of them to attend Kosho events. I agree that this is the only way anyone can really get to know what Kosho is.
What I teach at my school is not strictly out of the Kosho curriculum. Hanshi told me that I did not need to do that. I do teach the katas, but not in the same order or at the same ranks. I have my own set of self defense techniqes that I use in order for students to practice certain ideas. We do cover various aspects of the sub-arts, but again, not in the order outlined.
In Mitose's writings his clearly states that the individual is their own best teacher. I believe that. I believe that when I gain an insight from Hanshi or you or Pat Kelly, etc. at a seminar it is up to me to go and work on what I picked up. Only then can I learn and gain deeper understandings. And if what I understand today doesn't exactly match what another Kosho student understands - that's fine. Because we're both on our own path and gaining the wisdom that we need at the time we gain it.
Well, I think I've gone on long enough.
Tony, you're a great Kosho teacher. I hope to see you again soon. Thanks for posting here and maybe your words were able to clear things up for some. I look forward to reading your reply.
Take care,
John Evans
Great post. I do have some comments and questions for you.
Let's talk curriculum first. Yes, Hanshi has a set a curriculum but I have not met many Kosho practitioners that actually have all the "requirements" for the ranks. This leads me to believe that the curriculum is not really the important part of the study of Kosho, but rather the concepts or natural laws that are to be learned via the curriculum. What I'm saying is that it seems as long as students are grasping the "real" lessons of Kosho (90, zig zag, move twice, etc., etc.) then memorization of the curriculum is secondary.
Also - how many students are truly able to brush out all of the required kanji, know all of the history, understand shiatsu at the level required, have all the weapons katas, etc.? I've been to enough Kosho seminars and Gatherings to know that these "requirements" are not really required.
At my dojo we practice the drills, katas, etc. to the best of my abilities. And in doing so I believe we are on the correct path of Kosho studies. And since I hold a nidan in Kosho, given to me by Hanshi, I have to assume I am on the right path. Otherwise why would I have the rank?
Do we know if Mitose had a set curriculum that he used to teach? Certain things in certain orders? He did write a manuscript to teach the important aspects of Kosho - which I have - that states certain things should be done in a certain order - but they are all drills or other kinds of exercises (mental and physical).
The bulk of the kata done within the Kosho ryu have been added in by Hanshi. Mitose didn't do that many katas but I also don't believe that bulk is better. In fact, I would argue that the more a student must memorize, the less time he or she has to spend on really gaining knowledge from the practice.
On the posting of Kosho here - I agree that we must all be mindfull to, at the very least, state that what we say is our understanding of Kosho or the way we do things in our dojo. I agree that there are many different "versions" of Kosho out there, if you judge it by the way it is taught from dojo to dojo. Hanshi Juchnik is the authority of Kosho within the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai and only he (and maybe a couple others) have the "final" say on what Kosho (as taught within the Kai) is.
Many of us have encouraged many of them to attend Kosho events. I agree that this is the only way anyone can really get to know what Kosho is.
What I teach at my school is not strictly out of the Kosho curriculum. Hanshi told me that I did not need to do that. I do teach the katas, but not in the same order or at the same ranks. I have my own set of self defense techniqes that I use in order for students to practice certain ideas. We do cover various aspects of the sub-arts, but again, not in the order outlined.
In Mitose's writings his clearly states that the individual is their own best teacher. I believe that. I believe that when I gain an insight from Hanshi or you or Pat Kelly, etc. at a seminar it is up to me to go and work on what I picked up. Only then can I learn and gain deeper understandings. And if what I understand today doesn't exactly match what another Kosho student understands - that's fine. Because we're both on our own path and gaining the wisdom that we need at the time we gain it.
Well, I think I've gone on long enough.
Tony, you're a great Kosho teacher. I hope to see you again soon. Thanks for posting here and maybe your words were able to clear things up for some. I look forward to reading your reply.
Take care,
John Evans
Kosho-Monk
Green Belt
Danjo,
Two things:
1) I posted my version of #3 combo and you haven't replied. I believe that's because you didn't really care in the first place.
2) The difference between Kosho Shorei Ryu and Kosho Ryu Kempo can be found of the official Sei Kosho Shorei Kai website www.skski.net - which I posted at least twice before. If you were really interested in learning about Kosho you would have checked out the site by now.
Take care,
John Evans
Two things:
1) I posted my version of #3 combo and you haven't replied. I believe that's because you didn't really care in the first place.
2) The difference between Kosho Shorei Ryu and Kosho Ryu Kempo can be found of the official Sei Kosho Shorei Kai website www.skski.net - which I posted at least twice before. If you were really interested in learning about Kosho you would have checked out the site by now.
Take care,
John Evans
Well, please forgive this question, as theres alot to read thru and I may have missed something. Is there a curriculum of material or not? I've seen posts that state there is not, but then some led me to believe that there is. Can someone clarify?
Thanks,
Mike
Thanks,
Mike
Kosho Gakkusei
Blue Belt
Mike,
No one from Kosho has said there is not a curriculum. Some skeptics have tried to insuate that.
Hanshi Juchnik did put forth a curriculum over 20 years ago but he does allow his instructors alot of discretion as to their own schools. So in actuality there's a number of curriculum.
_Don Flatt
No one from Kosho has said there is not a curriculum. Some skeptics have tried to insuate that.
Hanshi Juchnik did put forth a curriculum over 20 years ago but he does allow his instructors alot of discretion as to their own schools. So in actuality there's a number of curriculum.
_Don Flatt
Danjo
Master Black Belt
I guess I was waiting to see your comment on #15 before replying to both, but here goes.
Well, I fail to see how your "tweaking" of the combo improves it to any real degree. In fact it seems to overly complicate it. I picked #3 because it was one of my favorites to use as is with a step through punch.
It seems like you're still teaching SKK with some free-styling and calling it Kosho. This is what I have understood most of the Kosho folks to be doing. It's good to see that there is a set curriculum for Kosho Ryu Kempo, but apparently most don't want to learn it enough to teach it, but rather take the Kosho Shoriei concepts and apply it to what they already know.
I think the idea that you have them work variations off of different attacks is a good practice however.
There's one of me and a bunch of you guys throwing info at me. I will read it all. In fact I was watching Juchnik's "The Controversy" tape last night to brush up on this whole thing again. I'd let it go a while back after dealing with various evasive Kosho folk due to frustration with getting any real answers.
Don't be overly influenced by some that claim I'm not interested in finding out about your art. Not all of us got to train with a guy who looked like he'd learned his art from a book until we discovered that he couldn't read who in turn learned an unknown form of Kempo from a mysterious samurai master that looked just like Kosho.
Kosho-Monk
Green Belt
OK. My apologies then. Perhaps you are interested in understanding more about Kosho.
I have to teach but I'll respond to why I made changes to the combos later. And also to my thoughts about what Kosho is to me.
-John
I have to teach but I'll respond to why I made changes to the combos later. And also to my thoughts about what Kosho is to me.
-John
I offer my apologies, too. I am as confused about the curriculum as MJS and Danjo. I'm not an instructor, but a student.
Please consider my opinions and posts as just that, mine. They are not necessarily the same as my teacher or my teacher's teacher. My information is only as good as my experience--which isn't much at brown belt..
By the way, for what it's worth, I think Shawn Bailey is one of Kosho's greatest online assets. Thanks for your many insights on this and the other kenpo forums, Shawn.
Regards,
Ben
Please consider my opinions and posts as just that, mine. They are not necessarily the same as my teacher or my teacher's teacher. My information is only as good as my experience--which isn't much at brown belt..
By the way, for what it's worth, I think Shawn Bailey is one of Kosho's greatest online assets. Thanks for your many insights on this and the other kenpo forums, Shawn.
Regards,
Ben
Kosho-Monk
Green Belt
To me Kosho has nothing to do with kata, techniques or any kind of curriculum. It is about the study of natural law. What does that mean? Well, that's a huge discussion that I don't have the energy to type out.
So why do I practice kata, techniques and other pre-arrange material? To better understand the natural laws that I have learned about since I started the study of Kosho.
I must also say that I don't just study the natural laws that deal with the physical but also the natural laws that deal with the mind and soul as well. I'm not sure how many other Kosho students study that - but I find it gives me a more complete life-practice.
For me changing the techniques that I had already learned to fit with Kosho ideas made more sense than coming up with all new ones. The way I apply the combinations is in a way that reduces the amount of muscle strength required. I believe with the changes I have made the techniques now take into consideration the an attacher keeps moving instead of standing still while I throw a bunch of fancy-looking strikes around him.
Also, nearly all of the techniques I learned from SKK are very violent in nature. Kosho's highest level is that of peace. By changing the techniques I also have other "versions" in which I practice not hitting the person. So when we talk about #3 combination I have versions that hit, control or evade using the same or similar movements I described before.
One might not see how these changes are valid - but that's only because they haven't felt the changes. I can honestly say that every single SKK practitioner that I have shown my changes to has complimented me on them.
Gotta run. Take care,
John
So why do I practice kata, techniques and other pre-arrange material? To better understand the natural laws that I have learned about since I started the study of Kosho.
I must also say that I don't just study the natural laws that deal with the physical but also the natural laws that deal with the mind and soul as well. I'm not sure how many other Kosho students study that - but I find it gives me a more complete life-practice.
For me changing the techniques that I had already learned to fit with Kosho ideas made more sense than coming up with all new ones. The way I apply the combinations is in a way that reduces the amount of muscle strength required. I believe with the changes I have made the techniques now take into consideration the an attacher keeps moving instead of standing still while I throw a bunch of fancy-looking strikes around him.
Also, nearly all of the techniques I learned from SKK are very violent in nature. Kosho's highest level is that of peace. By changing the techniques I also have other "versions" in which I practice not hitting the person. So when we talk about #3 combination I have versions that hit, control or evade using the same or similar movements I described before.
One might not see how these changes are valid - but that's only because they haven't felt the changes. I can honestly say that every single SKK practitioner that I have shown my changes to has complimented me on them.
Gotta run. Take care,
John
Danjo
Master Black Belt
Well, I think I see where you are coming from on this. If one of your goals is to make a technique less "violent" okay. I prefer the more brutal and violent techniques personally. They tend to make me feel more secure in a violent encounter. When some one sees someone use a non-violent technique they think it was a fluke that it worked (Remember the Gracie Challenges where they would have to take the guy on several times and finally choke him out to prove it wasn't a fluke?). However, when someone is dealt with fast and hard, it tends to have a deterrant effect on bystanders as well as the one on the receiving end. Nothing like a knockout to end a confrontation and give the convincing impression that the attacker is out-classed. Granted, one should try to avoid getting there in the first place. But, like the Samurai of old who would simply lop off a head when confronted, once a fight is on, end it quickly and decisively. "Whenever you cross swords with an enemy you must not think of cutting him either strongly or weakly; just think of cutting and killing him. Be intent solely on killing the enemy. Do not try to cut strongly and, of course, do not think of cutting weakly. You should only be concerned with killing the enemy."---Miyamoto Musashi
Remind me again--why did Mitose go to prison?
Folks, please keep the discussion on-topic.
Is there a curriculum to Kosho or not? The responses conflict.
Is there a curriculum to Kosho or not? The responses conflict.
Danjo
Master Black Belt
For sicking his student on some old people after a failed extortion attempt.
Kosho-Monk
Green Belt
There is a curriculum set forth by Hanshi Juchnik - that has already been stated. Not everyone who studies Kosho follows that curriculum exactly. This is probably due to the fact the many of us switched from other arts.
I have my own curriculum that includes most of the aspects that Hanshi Juchnik requires - I just do them in a different order or at different ranks.
Back to class,
John Evans
I have my own curriculum that includes most of the aspects that Hanshi Juchnik requires - I just do them in a different order or at different ranks.
Back to class,
John Evans
DavidCC
Master of Arts
Which Natural Law do you mean? wiki alone has about 6 different meanings:
1.1 Aristotle
1.2 Stoic natural law
1.3 Christian natural law
1.4 Hobbes' natural law
1.5 Liberal natural law
Contemporary Catholic Understanding
In contemporary jurisprudence
Yes, but the trial transcript reads more like he went to get the money and when the fight began, this mode kicked on:
Danjo said:
At first I didn't understand this comment, but now it makes a lot more sense. Pre-Fulsom, Mitose taught any means to an end. Once in Fulsom Mitose taught this:
Kosho-monk said:
I'm starting to understand better now. In our history lessons, Mitose is made out to be a good guy. So sometimes it's hard for me to be objective.
Thanks,
Ben
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