Kosho Ryu?

[BlackCatBonz]

Would having a PhD in philosophy be considered some sort of recognition of a person's acheivement in the study of said subject?

 

[Danjo]

Would having a PhD in philosophy be considered some sort of recognition of a person's acheivement in the study of said subject?

Sure. But you don't get a black belt in philosophy last time I checked, you get an academic degree.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

You seem to be very fixated on the black belt.
The whole dan rank system was to denote knowledge and skill.
sometimes we even call them degrees.
1st degree, 2nd degree.....
I think you're just nitpicking now........once again showing that you don't really care. You're more interested in just continuing a line of questioning to observe what you might see as dissension among the ranks.

If you want a handbook with the requirements laid out......send $20 to Bruce Juchnik.

Hanshi has the final say as to who gets rank and who does not.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Sure. But you don't get a black belt in philosophy last time I checked, you get an academic degree.

Great point!

Since you drew the parallel to Jeet Kune Do. What about that? Isn't that a philosophy to make your martial art better? How does one go about grading a philosophy with martial implications? Because people will want to learn it in a martial arts setting from a qualified teacher - so rank will be necessary as part of a martial philosophy. I'm not sure but I believe that Bruce Lee did give out rank in both Jun Fan & Jeet Kune Do.

_Don Flatt

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Would having a PhD in philosophy be considered some sort of recognition of a person's acheivement in the study of said subject?

The whole dan rank system was to denote knowledge and skill.
sometimes we even call them degrees.
1st degree, 2nd degree.....

I get it now!!!

That could be a topic for another thread. There are various academic degrees based on the level of study just as there are various degrees you can achieve in the Martial Arts.

I would say rank acheived in Martial Arts is equivalent to degrees achieved academically and vice versa. It all relates to study and knowledge. I would say Martial Arts provide hands on experience, a necessary component. Some fields require internship before they authorize you to practice. Even then stepping in and doing it in real time is another story.

_Don Flatt

 

[BlackCatBonz]

It's hard to describe for someone the way a traditional Japanese martial art works.
It has nothing to do with dan ranks and black belts.....and this seems to be a hard concept for some to get their head around.

Traditionally, these arts were taught at 3 levels.
shoden 初伝 - this is the first transmission phase that introduces the student to the basics of the art, drills, throws, locks and strikes.
chuden 中伝 - this phase introduces more advanced principles and techniques.
Finally:
Okuden 奥伝 - These are the secret teachings of a ryu. This is where all of the principles and philosophies are revealed to a student.
the student usually must master the first 2 levels before they are intiated to receive this knowledge. This goes way beyond black belt which is really barely shoden teachings.

These upper teachings define the ryu, it is also the reason you won't here lots of people talking about it.
If that is hard to get your head around, then you really don't have much understanding of the japanese martial arts in the traditional sense.

Full mastery certification of an art usually means that the student understands the physical as well as the philosophical aspects of an art......this is calle Menkyo Kaiden.
This is the certification that H. Okazaki gave to Sig Kufferath, who in turn passed it on to Tony Janovich.
Mitose Gave Bruce Juchnik Menkyo Kaiden because he probably felt that his physical skills were at a high enough level. Advanced teachings do not require constant re-hashing of basics, but rather the application of the advanced principles to those basics.

The Physical aspect of the ryu takes a back seat to the philosophical aspects at the high levels........because these teachings define the physical art.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Great point!

Since you drew the parallel to Jeet Kune Do. What about that? Isn't that a philosophy to make your martial art better? How does one go about grading a philosophy with martial implications? Because people will want to learn it in a martial arts setting from a qualified teacher - so rank will be necessary as part of a martial philosophy. I'm not sure but I believe that Bruce Lee did give out rank in both Jun Fan & Jeet Kune Do.

_Don Flatt

I would just like to add to that thought. The last time I checked the philosophy Jeet Kune Do was not taught at academic institutions and there were no Bachelor of Jeet Kune Do degrees. I believe the way Bruce Lee did it was Level 1, Level 2, & Level 3. I'm not sure if Level 1 or 2 signified being allowed to teach.

_Don Flatt

 

[Danjo]

It's hard to describe for someone the way a traditional Japanese martial art works.
It has nothing to do with dan ranks and black belts.....and this seems to be a hard concept for some to get their head around.

Traditionally, these arts were taught at 3 levels.
shoden 初伝 - this is the first transmission phase that introduces the student to the basics of the art, drills, throws, locks and strikes.
chuden 中伝 - this phase introduces more advanced principles and techniques.
Finally:
Okuden 奥伝 - These are the secret teachings of a ryu. This is where all of the principles and philosophies are revealed to a student.
the student usually must master the first 2 levels before they are intiated to receive this knowledge. This goes way beyond black belt which is really barely shoden teachings.

These upper teachings define the ryu, it is also the reason you won't here lots of people talking about it.
If that is hard to get your head around, then you really don't have much understanding of the japanese martial arts in the traditional sense.

Full mastery certification of an art usually means that the student understands the physical as well as the philosophical aspects of an art......this is calle Menkyo Kaiden.
This is the certification that H. Okazaki gave to Sig Kufferath, who in turn passed it on to Tony Janovich.
Mitose Gave Bruce Juchnik Menkyo Kaiden because he probably felt that his physical skills were at a high enough level. Advanced teachings do not require constant re-hashing of basics, but rather the application of the advanced principles to those basics.

The Physical aspect of the ryu takes a back seat to the philosophical aspects at the high levels........because these teachings define the physical art.

Hmmmm....

Well, first off, regardless of whether "Traditional Japanese MAs" gave out Dan and Kyu rankings, they certainly have done so since Kano introduced the concept with Judo. Mitose also seems to have used that ranking system when he was in Hawaii. In Mitose's case, he seemed to follow the traditional meaning of belt ranking which was for mastery of a martial art, not a philosophy.

We can debate the notion of whether one could have a black belt in philosophy or not, but we would be arguing for an exception rather than the commonly understood rule. In the martial arts, the belts are awarded for skill in said art. Is there more than mere physical skill that goes into ranking? Yes, in some arts, no in others. In Judo or BJJ, the answer is "no". You are awarded points etc. or are judged on your abilty to beat people in contest period. In other arts, they want you to understand things intellectually as well as physically. They may want you to understand the history of your art as well as have the ability to intellectualize why things are done the way they are etc. Spiritually, the martial arts have chosen enlightenment via the physical path rather than the academic path. In other words, the longer you do it, the deeper your understanding is. It's why people who are physically past their prime are still considered superior. They've seen and done more and have a deeper knowledge as a result.

Bruse Lee gave out various levels of certification so that he could have some quality control over who was teaching using his methodolgy. I don't believe that he gave out green, brown or black belts in JKD though.

It seems to me that there would be a qualitative differnce between someone that was ranked as a black belt in Kosho Ryu Kempo and one who was ranked in Kosho Shorei Ryu that did their own art in terms of embodying the concepts that were trying to be taught.

It sounds like the reason for allowing people to not learn the curriculum is merely to expand his organizational base as wide as possible. If he actually required them to learn his art, it wouldn't grow nearly as fast or as wide.

 

[kelly keltner]

Folks, please keep the discussion on-topic.

Is there a curriculum to Kosho or not? The responses conflict.

Kosho has a curiculum however, it's pretty obvious not everyone in the art has to follow it.
Rank and position as it pertains to curiculum is not standard in kosho.
Let's just say it's all kinda fluid.

kk

 

[Carol]

Kosho has a curiculum however, it's pretty obvious not everyone in the art has to follow it.
Rank and position as it pertains to curiculum is not standard in kosho.
Let's just say it's all kinda fluid.

kk

:asian: Thanks KK.

That's sounding even more like Silat. There is martial and cultural material, the blend of which may vary by teacher. What is taught when is something that also varies, depending on class or even the student, but it flows together.

That sounds loosey-goose in description but...in application, its quite rigorous. The student isn't braced by a rigid belt structure.

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Kosho has a curiculum however, it's pretty obvious not everyone in the art has to follow it.
Rank and position as it pertains to curiculum is not standard in kosho.
Let's just say it's all kinda fluid.

kk

Exactly. And I don't think that's a bad thing or anything to be embarrassed about. Kosho has some great practitioners in the ranks.


-John

 

[kelly keltner]

Exactly. And I don't think that's a bad thing or anything to be embarrassed about. Kosho has some great practitioners in the ranks.


-John

Your right, it is nothing to be embarrased about.
However, tightening the standards would not be a bad thing either.
If one person is held accountable for core material for advancement, so should everyone.

kk

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Your right, it is nothing to be embarrased about.
However, tightening the standards would not be a bad thing either.
If one person is held accountable for core material for advancement, so should everyone.

kk

I can agree to that. Would seem fair to either hold everyone accountable or no one.

For me, I am in favor of a smaller list of required material and let certain studies be optional.


-John

 

[kelly keltner]

I can agree to that. Would seem fair to either hold everyone accountable or no one.

For me, I am in favor of a smaller list of required material and let certain studies be optional.


-John

Yeah I could see that.
But it ain't the way Bruce does buisiness.
It's one of the reasons, among many I tend to keep to myself these days.

kk

 

[Kosho-Monk]

In my town a lot of people don't really want to learn about shiatsu, sword, etc. They would rather get a good workout that makes them sweat and learn some solid self-defense techniques. If I don't give the students what they are wanting they will find it at another school.

That doesn't mean if they want to sit around and talk they get to do that. I attract students that like to workout and become healthier... not something you see in all Kosho schools.

One of my personal philosophies is - if you have a heart attack at 50 you probably won't care that you can beat someone up without barely moving.


-John

 

[kelly keltner]

In my town a lot of people don't really want to learn about shiatsu, sword, etc. They would rather get a good workout that makes them sweat and learn some solid self-defense techniques. If I don't give the students what they are wanting they will find it at another school.

That doesn't mean if they want to sit around and talk they get to do that. I attract students that like to workout and become healthier... not something you see in all Kosho schools.

One of my personal philosophies is - if you have a heart attack at 50 you probably won't care that you can beat someone up without barely moving.


-John

I agree totally, but my concern has always been for the accountability of material end. So that if one person is not ranked for lack of knowledge in an area. That he/she is not held back while others are promoted for having the same or even a larger lack of knoweldge.
So much for keeping to myself.

kk

 

[Kosho-Monk]

I agree totally, but my concern has always been for the accountability of material end. So that if one person is not ranked for lack of knowledge in an area. That he/she is not held back while others are promoted for having the same or even a larger lack of knoweldge.
So much for keeping to myself.

kk

In my school I have a small curriculum of required material for rank promotions. You must not only memorize but also be able to perform to a certain level of proficiency. Students who wish to learn extra things can take private lessons, sign up for in-house seminars or even sometimes just ask me between classes.

This seems to work well and keeps things running smoothly. It also helps me in choosing students who can be leaders in my school. The ones who work harder are the ones who will be covering my classes when I can't be there. And everyone in my school accepts that as a good way to do it.

I have nearly 100 students in a very small town. And by this Fall I believe I will break the 100 mark. Not bad for being open fulltime for less than one year, I think.

Take care,
John


P.S. Kelly, please don't keep to yourself. I would really like to hear (read) your thoughts about Kosho.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

I agree totally, but my concern has always been for the accountability of material end. So that if one person is not ranked for lack of knowledge in an area. That he/she is not held back while others are promoted for having the same or even a larger lack of knoweldge.
So much for keeping to myself.

kk

This is where I agree with Kelly.
I am a stickler for having an order of operations and a reason for something.
I am looking at the student handbook right now and I don't see anything that is unacheivable for a hard working student.

I've had people tell me before that it would be impossible to learn everything in it.
I would say impossible for someone that doesnt feel like putting in the time.
The problem with the handbook is most of the teachers out there don't know the material.......and there are some of us that do, some more than others.

I think the handbook should represent the minimum standard for advancement in grade.
I keep mine in a binder with a pile of notes that i still add to occasionally.

 

[Kosho-Monk]

This is where I agree with Kelly.
I am a stickler for having an order of operations and a reason for something.
I am looking at the student handbook right now and I don't see anything that is unacheivable for a hard working student.

I've had people tell me before that it would be impossible to learn everything in it.
I would say impossible for someone that doesnt feel like putting in the time.
The problem with the handbook is most of the teachers out there don't know the material.......and there are some of us that do, some more than others.

I think the handbook should represent the minimum standard for advancement in grade.
I keep mine in a binder with a pile of notes that i still add to occasionally.

The handbook might be fine for some schools, but not all. I believe firmly that I would put myself out of business if I required all of that of my students.

I have to ask what is really important to teach students and what is something that can wait until a later time.

I guess for me it boils down to what my goals and the goals of my students are. The Natural Laws of Kosho guide us.... not the curriculum.


-John

 

[kelly keltner]

The handbook might be fine for some schools, but not all. I believe firmly that I would put myself out of business if I required all of that of my students.

I have to ask what is really important to teach students and what is something that can wait until a later time.

I guess for me it boils down to what my goals and the goals of my students are. The Natural Laws of Kosho guide us.... not the curriculum.


-John

The problem is when"The Natural Laws of Kosho guide us." The rank structure tends to be abused. Folks who put in a lot of work tend to get upset when others get pushed ahead, sometimes for political reasons. It has happened to more than one in the system.

kk