Kosho Ryu?

[Monadnock]

My response is "It takes that long to see if someone has green belt skills?" etc. etc.

But I do thank you for the information and we'll see what else we get to compare.

Most martial art schools do not set up students to fail. A good teacher will know before the student takes the test if they are a good candidate for the rank they are testing. I am sure the length of the test has nothing to do with giving the teacher time to decide if the student can pass/fail.

Don't the teachers in Kajukenbo work closely enough with their students to know before hand? Granted there can always be surprises -- a student can have an off day -- but for the most part, when you are ready, you are ready. And the teacher should already know when his/her students are up for the test. The length of test is not the measure of rank.

 

[John Bishop]

Robert Trias talks about his meetings with James Mitose in his book "The Pinnacle of Karate". He describes the meetings as a "effort to bring together the Shorei Ryu katas with the katas taught by Mitose".
Trias, in his own biographies states that he did not "have any interest" in the martial arts until 1942. He was a boxer in the Navy, and thought the martial arts were useless. When Tung Gee Hsing approached him about trading martial arts lessons for boxing lessons, he had no interest in doing so. Finally, after Hsing's persistence, he said he would spar with Hsing in the boxing ring to see if his martial arts had any merit. The result of the match convinced Trias to become Hsing's student. This was in the Solomon Islands, in 1942. Hsing was a student of Choki Motobu, and taught Trias the "Shorei Ryu" style. So Trias had no knowledge of the "Shorei Ryu katas before 1942.

James Mitose claimed to have started teaching students around 1936. Trias was 14 years old in 1936. Thomas Young told me that he, William Chow, and Jiro Nakamura started training with Mitose in his garage in 1941. And that they were already black belts when the "Official Self Defense Club" was started "after the war", which would be 1946.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Very interesting. That's information that does conflict with what I've been told. Though your timeline does not gel with what is known about Mitose - Mitose taught in Hawaii from 1942 to 1946.

From SKSKI site http://www.collectivesociety.com/skski/modern.html

James Mitose moved from Japan to Hawaii in 1936. He felt great respect and love for the United States and its people, who had treated him very well. On December 8th, 1941, the day after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and the U. S. entered World War II, Mitose was the first person in line to donate his blood for the cause. He also promptly joined the Hawaii Territorial Guard, an outfit which was formed to aid in the defense of the islands against what then seemed to be an imminent invasion by the Japanese. He also began teaching basic martial arts in early 1942. The one who convinced Mitose Sensei to teach in Hawaii was Robert Trias. Trias Sensei was later the first man to open a karate school on the mainland U. S. Although Trias was not a student of Mitose Sensei, he often spoke with him and the two became friends.

Thomas S. H. Young, who provided the information concerning Trias to Juchnik Hanshi, was Mitose Sensei's first real student. Mitose only taught in Hawaii for four years, from 1942 to 1946. Yudansha (Black Belt) certifications granted to students of Mitose's Official Self-Defense Club were awarded chronologically to Thomas Young (whose promotion by Mitose made him the first person ever to earn a Black Belt in Kempo west of asia), Jiro Nakamura (promoted by James Mitose), Arthur Keawe (promoted by James Mitose), Paul Yamaguchi (promoted by James Mitose), William Chow (promoted by Thomas Young), and Bobby Lowe (promoted by William Chow). This information was provided by Thomas Young, and later confirmed by other pioneers of Kempo present at the time.
...
Professor Thomas S.H. Young and Juchnik Hanshi worked together, from 1982 until the death of Professor Young in 1995, to better connect James Mitose Sensei's early teachings from Hawaii in the 1940s with the new teachings transmitted to Juchnik Hanshi in the 1970s and 1980s. Mitose wished to see all Kempo students study the complete art of Kosho Ryu, including escaping and controlling arts along with the potentially destructive martial arts, healing arts, and cultural arts. Young and Juchnik both endeavored toward this goal. Thomas Young was an active participating member until his death in Juchnik Hanshi's organization, the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai International (SKSKI). The SKSKI was formed to preserve the teachings of James Mitose.

Also, Proffessor Young and Hanshi Juchnik worked together for 13 years in SKSKI. Did you spend an equivalent amount of time with him? Are you sure about your information?

_Don Flatt

 

[kosho]

Testing takes place every time you are in the Dojo.
No I do not need 5 hrs, but it makes a nice day of testing the will power of some students. age and what not comes into play also...

Have a great day.
6 hr ride... maybe thats to long also?
kosho

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Just a thought if Mitose did not teach until 1942 - and Trias became interested in Martial Arts in 1942 - is it possible that Trias convinced Mitose in 1942 while on furlough in Hawaii?

I'll ask Hanshi what else he knows about this.

_Don Flatt

 

[sksk]

Danjo,

What alot of people haven't done a good job of explaining is that there is a set currciulum and a minimum standard for Kosho, at least the verison taught by Hanshi Juchnik. I would be happy to describe certain things to the best of my abilitys. I do understand the frustration of asking a question and getting a question in return

 

[sksk]

sorry i forgot to sign off

best regards

George

 

[Danjo]

Testing takes place every time you are in the Dojo.
No I do not need 5 hrs, but it makes a nice day of testing the will power of some students. age and what not comes into play also...

Have a great day.
6 hr ride... maybe thats to long also?
kosho

So you don't know the will power of those students before they test and it takes 5 hours to assess it? Many times tests are for other black belts to objectively assess what the instructor already knows. Is there really two days worth of material to get through on the physical part, or is it padded with other things like endurance challenges?

 

[Danjo]

Danjo,

What alot of people haven't done a good job of explaining is that there is a set currciulum and a minimum standard for Kosho, at least the verison taught by Hanshi Juchnik. I would be happy to describe certain things to the best of my abilitys. I do understand the frustration of asking a question and getting a question in return

Cool. That would be enlightening. What are the core minimum Kosho techniques?

 

[Danjo]

Danjo,

I think it might be easier for me to point out some differences via your description of #3 and #15. Please type in the way you do the combos and I'll start from there.

Let me also ask you... do you believe the SKK combos taught to you work the way you were taught them?


Thanks,
John

These are taken from Matt Barnes' website, but they are what I learned also:

3 – Step to 11 o'clock with the left foot slipping the punch over your right shoulder as you strike with a right reverse punch to the bladder. Right hand returns to chamber as left hand slides up to opponent's right shoulder. Left hand pushes shoulder down as you strike right with a back two knuckle punch to the temple. Reach across to the far shoulder with the right hand, grab under the right shoulder. Push down with the left and pull with the right as you step back with the right foot for the takedown. Just before the head reaches the ground, strike to the face with a left thrust punch.

15 – Step forward with the right leg into a twist stance while performing a #5 block. Redirect their punch to their groin while stepping out with your left leg and striking with a crane’s arm to the front of their neck. Step back with the right leg pulling them onto the table created by your left leg. Rake down their body with a tiger claw with the right arm. Rake back on their body with a tiger claw with the right arm. Right dropping elbow to the face. While stepping back with the left leg, right hammer to the chest, dropping them on the ground with force.

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Danjo,

I'll start with #3.

Slipping the punch and striking into the midsection of the attacker on the right side will most likely have you dealing with their body mass. I would suggest moving around the punch by stepping to angle 5 of the kosho octagon (kind of like moving to 10/11 o'clock) with the left foot and then stepping again towards angle 7 (kind of like moving to 1/2 o'clock) with the right foot while checking the attacking side at the shoulder (using the 90 principle of kosho) causing the attacker's base to be moved before striking the midsection. This should eliminate taking on the attacker's body mass.

After striking the midsection I would check the attacker's secondary rotation, probably at the tricep muscle (but it would depend on their position) in order to keep them from striking me again, and then immediately throwing the back punch to the head.

At this time my left hand would sink down to the attacker's right hip in order to check their movement again while reaching across with my right hand to secure the front side of the left shoulder. By pressing down and in on the hip and holding or pulling the shoulder back I can create a #2 fold in the attacker and have them falling backwards.

Hitting them with the last punch is optional and other strikes, or not strikes at all, might be needed.

I would judge my effectiveness of this technique by the amount of muscling I had to do to get the attacker down. Of course if the attacker did something unexpected (as attacker's often do) I would change the entire course of action at the point when it wasn't working.

There is still some weight shifting and other thoughts I would show the student - but I'll stop here.

On a side note I will also have more advanced students work this combination (and all techniques) with different variations like - right, left, inside, outside, grab, kick, weapon, all 8 angles of attack - just to name a few.

By doing this we see that the technique is nothing more than a drill in order to really understand the true lessons of Kosho like timing, distance, rotation, visual plane, etc.

Hope this helps.


Take care,
John

 

[John Bishop]

Very interesting. That's information that does conflict with what I've been told. Though your timeline does not gel with what is known about Mitose - Mitose taught in Hawaii from 1942 to 1946.

From SKSKI site http://www.collectivesociety.com/skski/modern.html


Also, Proffessor Young and Hanshi Juchnik worked together for 13 years in SKSKI. Did you spend an equivalent amount of time with him? Are you sure about your information?

_Don Flatt

It's not really my time line. Mitose told others that he started teaching some select students as early as 1936. And he told some others a different story. But you will find that a lot when dealing with Mitose.
In a 1958 interview with Bruce Haines (author: "Karate's History and Traditions" Tuttle Books, "Karate and it's Development in Hawaii to 1959" University of Hawaii, ), he told Haines that he did not return to Hawaii until 1940. But in another interview in 1960, he gave the year as being 1936. And that it was the bombing of Pearl Harbor, on Dec. 7th, 1941 that convinced him to start teaching self defense to the masses at the Beretania Mission in Honolulu, in 1942. So this is what he told Bruce Haines in 1958 and 1960. Yet Thomas Young told me in a interview in 1988, that they started in Mitose's garage in 1941, and didn't move to the Mission until "after the war", 1946.
And Mitose did teach, at least sporatically, long past 1946. Paul Yamaguichi was promoted to shodan by Mitose in 1952. And Bobby Lowe was promoted to shodan by Mitose in 1953. Arthur Keave, was also promoted to shodan by Mitose in the early 50's.

As to Trias and Mitose. Many have questioned Trias's accounts of his early training in the Soloman Islands during World War II. This is a description of the Solomon Islands during WWII.


World War II

Some of the most intense fighting of World War II occurred in the Solomons between 1942-45. The most significant of the Allied Forces' operations against the Japanese Imperial Forces was launched on August 7, 1942 with simultaneous naval bombardments and amphibious landings on the Florida Islands at Tulagi and Red Beach on Guadalcanal. The Battle of Guadalcanal became an important and bloody campaign fought in the Pacific War as the Allies began to repulse Japanese expansion.


So, many historians of the Japanese/Okinawan arts have asked how it was possible for Trias to be training in boxing and martial arts, and taking leaves to Hawaii, in the middle of some of the fiercest fighting during WWII.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Danjo, against my better judgement I've decided to post once again.

I fail to see how I have derailed this discussion.
I gave you some pertinent information regarding kosho ryu with the Takamura quote.
Rather than coming back with an intelligent response, you chose to ignore the info entirely.
We have gone over this time and again.....you've been invited to call Bruce Juchnik on many occasions.
It will eventually become plain to these guys that you have no interest and they will stop humouring you with responses.
margaritas ante porcos.

Consider yourself lucky, John Bishop puts up with you.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

It's not really my time line. Mitose told others that he started teaching some select students as early as 1936. And he told some others a different story. But you will find that a lot when dealing with Mitose.
In a 1958 interview with Bruce Haines (author: "Karate's History and Traditions" Tuttle Books, "Karate and it's Development in Hawaii to 1959" University of Hawaii, ), he told Haines that he did not return to Hawaii until 1940. But in another interview in 1960, he gave the year as being 1936. And that it was the bombing of Pearl Harbor, on Dec. 7th, 1941 that convinced him to start teaching self defense to the masses at the Beretania Mission in Honolulu, in 1942. So this is what he told Bruce Haines in 1958 and 1960. Yet Thomas Young told me in a interview in 1988, that they started in Mitose's garage in 1941, and didn't move to the Mission until "after the war", 1946.
And Mitose did teach, at least sporatically, long past 1946. Paul Yamaguichi was promoted to shodan by Mitose in 1952. And Bobby Lowe was promoted to shodan by Mitose in 1953. Arthur Keave, was also promoted to shodan by Mitose in the early 50's.

As to Trias and Mitose. Many have questioned Trias's accounts of his early training in the Soloman Islands during World War II. This is a description of the Solomon Islands during WWII.


World War II

Some of the most intense fighting of World War II occurred in the Solomons between 1942-45. The most significant of the Allied Forces' operations against the Japanese Imperial Forces was launched on August 7, 1942 with simultaneous naval bombardments and amphibious landings on the Florida Islands at Tulagi and Red Beach on Guadalcanal. The Battle of Guadalcanal became an important and bloody campaign fought in the Pacific War as the Allies began to repulse Japanese expansion.


So, many historians of the Japanese/Okinawan arts have asked how it was possible for Trias to be training in boxing and martial arts, and taking leaves to Hawaii, in the middle of some of the fiercest fighting during WWII.

I dont think it's hard to tell that a lot of gentlemen padded their stories in order to come across as something more.
Trias was probably another one of these folks.

 

[John Bishop]

I dont think it's hard to tell that a lot of gentlemen padded their stories in order to come across as something more.
Trias was probably another one of these folks.

Yes, that crosses over into many styles, if not all.

 

[Danjo]

Danjo, against my better judgement I've decided to post once again.

I fail to see how I have derailed this discussion.
I gave you some pertinent information regarding kosho ryu with the Takamura quote.
Rather than coming back with an intelligent response, you chose to ignore the info entirely.
We have gone over this time and again.....you've been invited to call Bruce Juchnik on many occasions.
It will eventually become plain to these guys that you have no interest and they will stop humouring you with responses.
margaritas ante porcos.

Consider yourself lucky, John Bishop puts up with you.

Real good reply Shawn. Look, I've read what was written about you in regards to your authority to talk about Kosho Ryu on SJK before it was deleted out of politeness. I've read your post about your supposed early training which reads like a really bad B-Movie script (no I won't post it again just now because anyone can find it since I've re-posted it so many times). You come on here and you're the one who's acting rude.

I'm blunt and sceptical, but not devoid of reason. What I am attempting to do here is narrow down what exactly Kosho Ryu is. I've talked to Eugene Sedeño about the prison visits and have his views on them. He was respectful, frank and informative and not trying to sell me anything. What he told me made perfect sense and so my curiosity continues as I try to get some things nailed down.

Someone offered to post about the core curriculum, and so I eagerly await that. These people seem like grown-ups that can fend for themselves when it comes to explaining what it is that they teach and train in. If Mitose started it all, then he started with something that he was teaching. He wasn't taking SKK techniques and tweaking them etc. Since I have little to no interest in Calligraphy or massage, I am interested in the fighting side of the art and what is unique about it. What is currently taught as Kosho Ryu and how much of that came directly from Mitose.

All known MAs are defined by their techniques and forms. These are the expressions of the concepts. Without these physical manifestations of the concepts, there is no martial art, but rather mere philosophy like JKD which is no more than an approach to training and is empty by itself and must be applied to other existing arts in order to manifest itself. As Bruce Lee said himself of JKD, "It's just a name." If one says that avoidance is Kosho Ryu, then any instance of avoidance could be called Kosho Ryu including acts of cowardice. However, if it is a true art, then it will have specific, unique techniques or forms that illustrate the concept of whatever is trying to be taught. Otherwise it is not a martial art and thus no one should have any rank in it. All rank wshould be in other arts that are done from the Kosho Ryu point of view etc.

I'm sure if your original Kenpo instructor could read he would agree with me Shawn.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

If you recall......several of my posts in the past talked about the many drills that are used in kosho.
You're not going to learn them from a dvd.......even if you watched them 100 times......because it's not a technique that is learned by rote.
there are specific principles that are to be kept in mind while doing them.
Heck, i even posted the student handbook on my dumb yahoo page.......you were free to go and look at it.....but you never did........yellow through black laid out in easy to read fashion.

go and see bruce juchnik for heavens sake.......jeez man, I'm not so much of an a-hole that even after all of the exchanges you and I have had that i wouldnt sit down and work some of this stuff with you.

You have been a bit obtuse in the past Dan......but I don't lie about squat, i have no need to, what you see or read is what you get.....
I'm opinionated and for the most part, know exactly what I am talking about.
Don't you think people more in the know than me would have said BS a long time ago?

If you want to sit back and feign interest.......I'm going to tell everyone what a BS artist you are.

If you were legitimately interested, you would've made a call or a visit by now.

The art of Kosho is really quite simple on one level.......it's offensive force based on tai sabaki done well. Tactical repositioning.
What dontcha get?

Read "Canon of Judo", by Kyuzo Mifune........the principles of Ju are the same utilized by Kosho.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

It's not really my time line. Mitose told others that he started teaching some select students as early as 1936. And he told some others a different story. But you will find that a lot when dealing with Mitose.

John, could you direct me to the source of that information? I've never heard it claimed that Mitose began teaching in 1936. All sources I've read place the timeline after Pearl Harbor - 1941 or 1942. 1936 sounds more like when Mitose returned to the states from Japan. I have both of Mitose's books and that's what both of them say - What is Self Defense? Kenpo Jiu-Jitsu (1953) & What is True Self Defense? (1981)

And Mitose did teach, at least sporatically, long past 1946. Paul Yamaguichi was promoted to shodan by Mitose in 1952. And Bobby Lowe was promoted to shodan by Mitose in 1953. Arthur Keave, was also promoted to shodan by Mitose in the early 50's.

I'm not sure why the SKSKI website says Mitose only taught until 1946. I can see how that could be a little mis-leading. 1946 is when he passed the Oficial Self Defense Club to Thomas Young. I've heard Juchnik tell of how Young told him Mitose would stop by the club from time to time until he left for the mainland in 1954. From then on Mitose would stop in Hawaii from time to time on his travels up until the time of his incarceration, especially when Mitose would travel to Japan. It was on one of these journeys to Japan when Mitose was awarded a 10th Dan by Moreih Ueshiba in Aikido. As a point of fact though Bobby Lowe's Shodan Certificate was signed by Chow and Chow's was signed by Young.

As to Trias and Mitose. Many have questioned Trias's accounts of his early training in the Soloman Islands during World War II. This is a description of the Solomon Islands during WWII.


World War II

Some of the most intense fighting of World War II occurred in the Solomons between 1942-45. The most significant of the Allied Forces' operations against the Japanese Imperial Forces was launched on August 7, 1942 with simultaneous naval bombardments and amphibious landings on the Florida Islands at Tulagi and Red Beach on Guadalcanal. The Battle of Guadalcanal became an important and bloody campaign fought in the Pacific War as the Allies began to repulse Japanese expansion.


So, many historians of the Japanese/Okinawan arts have asked how it was possible for Trias to be training in boxing and martial arts, and taking leaves to Hawaii, in the middle of some of the fiercest fighting during WWII.

So then if Trias did indeed learn Martial Arts during this time it is viable that he may have been the one to encourage Mitose to teach.

_Don Flatt

 

[sksk]

Danjo,

i have to get home to my wife and baby, but i will write out and try to explain the curriculum for one of the ranks tomorrow. Your point about Jun fan gung fu with a set curriculum and jeet kune do with a philosophical approach to combat is pretty close to some of the structuring of kosho. I welcome your questions it is always good to examine the hows,what and wheres of your art.

All the best

George

 

[John Bishop]

John, could you direct me to the source of that information? I've never heard it claimed that Mitose began teaching in 1936. All sources I've read place the timeline after Pearl Harbor - 1941 or 1942. 1936 sounds more like when Mitose returned to the states from Japan. I have both of Mitose's books and that's what both of them say - What is Self Defense? Kenpo Jiu-Jitsu (1953) & What is True Self Defense? (1981)

Well, the first one that comes to mind would be the sworn testimony of James Mitose in the trial transcript of the "People of the State of California vs. James Mitose". He actually talks about teaching police cadets in Japan prior to coming back to Hawaii. And then continuing to teach upon returning to Hawaii in 1936.

I'm not sure why the SKSKI website says Mitose only taught until 1946. I can see how that could be a little mis-leading. 1946 is when he passed the Oficial Self Defense Club to Thomas Young. I've heard Juchnik tell of how Young told him Mitose would stop by the club from time to time until he left for the mainland in 1954.

Actually, most of my references (which I'll be glad to list) say that Mitose turned the Official Self defense Club over to Thomas Young in 1953. He then returned to his original home on the big island (Hawaii) until 1954, when he moved to Los Angeles, Ca.
In fact Mitose also gave this account to Bruce Haines, who conducted very extensive interviews with Mitose between 1958-1960.

It was on one of these journeys to Japan when Mitose was awarded a 10th Dan by Moreih Ueshiba in Aikido.

Actually, Mitose's honorary promotion in aikido did not come from Ueshiba. It was given by Koichi Tohei, as a business agreement.

http://www.sanjosekenpo.com/mitose_and_the_aikido_connection.htm

Or see Rev. Kyusho Furuya's description of Mitose's aikido promotion.
http://www.aikidocenterla.com/2004/9/22.html
See: Bits & Pieces - History of Aikido In Southern California

So then if Trias did indeed learn Martial Arts during this time it is viable that he may have been the one to encourage Mitose to teach.

_Don Flatt

Your not getting it. Trias was a seaman on a Naval Warship in the middle of fierce fighting in the Solomon Islands. It's very doubtful that he went ashore where there were 25,000 hostile Japanese soldiers, and took karate lessons.