Kosho Ryu?

[Danjo]

Who said Kosho was concept divorced from technique? I can see from your profile that you study Kajukenbo. Did you read this post by Flying Crane?

When I hear that Kosho had it's expression in pre-Okinawan Japanese MAs, I have to assume you mean Kendo and Jujutsu. In which case, you're saying that it's not a system, but rather a concept.

The aproach Kajukenbo and Kenpo derived from Chow are unlike those of traditional Chuanfa and Kempo systems. So your comment about logical non-sense seems to be more of an attack. If your purpose is to argue, nitpick, or discredit I have no reason to try to talk to you because you have no interest in learning anything. If you have a genuine interest to understand or learn about another art we can talk because that's why I'm here to learn and discuss.

I think I have a pretty good grasp on what Mitose taught to Young and Chow etc. I also have more than a passing familiarity with Chuan Fa systems. They do indeed have more than mere basics. Some of their forms are the longest and most elaborate in the world.

Obviously, since you still have no idea what Kosho is about. You're entitled to that opinion, obviously not shared by a number of people. Perhaps, you approached those videos much like your approaching this discussion. You'll never learn from anything as long as you approach it with arms closed and a scowl on your face. Also, some of the tapes can be hard to understand from the outside as he's explaining one principle but still using hundreds. It would be better to attend a seminar but only with an attitude to learn something - if you just want to criticize don't bother.

I'm actually trying to nail some things down here without it going in the same circular direction that Kosho threads tend to go in. There's no hostility, but rather a questioning of what's being said. If a person wants to learn, they question things. If they want to be indoctrinated, then they just shut up and listen.

What video learning program do you speak of? I'm unaware of any such thing. Hanshi's videos are intended as a supplement, no one is given rank based on video learning.

I don't think I mentioned rank. The program I'm referring to is this one: http://www.koshoelessons.com/overview.html

This sort of flies in the face of the idea that this all has to be felt to be learned no?

I don't have the answers but you seem pretty convinced that it could not have happened prior to Trias being shipped out or while Trias was in port in Hawaii as he was in the Navy. Not that they would use Hawaii for any Naval operations.

_Don Flatt

I can't change time and space. The Pre-War Trias was not a martial artist, so why whould he be talking to Mitose about teaching the martial arts? Where is your evidence that he met with Mitose in Hawaii?

 

[Danjo]

Danjo

Kempo means Fist Law. This is the Kosho Shorei Ryu form of martial arts. The predecessors of Kempo are Chaun Fa, in China, and before that Vajra Mukrti in India. Kempo's philosophy is to study and understand man's relationship with nature. Kempo is the study of natural law pertaining to mankind. Kempo does not just deal with the physical arts; it also deals with the spiritual side of oneself, and one's ability to better understand yourself and those around you.

Well, you can go back further and say that the Indian arts were imported from Greece via Alexander the Great bringing Pancrase with him. Kempo/Kenpo does mean "Fist Law" not "Natural Law" or Philosophy. When I used the term Chinese Boxing, I was using a fairly common name for the same thing. Your going beyond that into philosophy is not the universal case.

I do appreciate the rest of your post's attempt to answer my question.

 

[kosho]

I do appreciate the rest of your post's attempt to answer my question.
Danjo

Danjo Thanks no issues... I was hoping some would help a little.
look forward to seeing and meeting you some day.

kosho

 

[Kosho-Monk]

You cannot learn from a video - true learning only takes place via experience. You can gain ideas via video but you must take those ideas into your practice and experience for yourself in order to gain knowledge (i.e. learn).

I'm not sure exactly when Trias and Mitose met - but I have heard that Trias talked Mitose into teaching. I wonder if Trias actually talked Mitose into teaching again - post Official Self Defense Club, after Mitose moved to California. Just a thought.

From what I understand Mitose only taught the war arts of Kosho to his students in Hawaii. As all Kosho students today know, that is just one part of Kosho. Kempo is the martial arts aspect of Kosho. Kosho in a whole is much more. And Kosho Shorei Ryu is the highest philosophy of Kosho - as I understand it - basically meaning to cause harm to no one.

Of course that being said you still see many Kosho practitioners focusing mainly on the war arts. But I would encourage all Kosho students to practice yoga, meditation, shodo and some of the other non-martial studies. This will help to balance them out.

Here is the list of the 8 main studies of Kosho:

Energy Collection
Healing Arts
Japanese Yoga
Escaping Arts
Philosophy
Folding Arts
Meditation
War Arts

Please go to www.skski.net for more information.


DANJO,

Is there a specific question you have that has not been answered to your satisfaction? If so I will do my best to answer it.


Warm regards,
John Evans

 

[sksk]

When kosho practitioners talk about "natural Laws" what they are describing is physics, bio-mechanics, physiology, and anatomy, environmental considerations. It really is not hocus-pocus, its grounded.

best regards

George

 

[Flying Crane]

When kosho practitioners talk about "natural Laws" what they are describing is physics, bio-mechanics, physiology, and anatomy, environmental considerations. It really is not hocus-pocus, its grounded.

best regards

George

I suspect these are the same things that EPAK people discuss in their own versions of kenpo.

 

[sksk]

Sure, not having studied epak i can only surmise, but i have found "natural Laws in every art i have studied. i don't think anyone has a monopoly on the truth.

best regards

George

 

[Flying Crane]

Sure, not having studied epak i can only surmise, but i have found "natural Laws in every art i have studied. i don't think anyone has a monopoly on the truth.

best regards

George

I haven't studied EPAK versions either. But just poke around in the threads here, and you will see all kinds of references to physiology and anatomy and proprioceptors and scientific anatomical truths and whatnot.

I think some people THINK they have the monopoly on truth. They sometimes have a hard time recognizing and accepting that they do not, even tho that same truth is known by a different name, and when it is connected to a controversial personality.

 

[Danjo]

Sure, not having studied epak i can only surmise, but i have found "natural Laws in every art i have studied. i don't think anyone has a monopoly on the truth.

best regards

George

Okay. If it's physics etc that are meant, then no problem. I'm not sure why it was mentioned as something special since everything works according to Natural Law etc. When he said it like this "the natural laws that govern man's existence" I thought he was meaning some special Kosho thing and that the rest of us were following "un-natural laws" by their definition.

Probably be helpful if someone could describe what a belt test looked like in Kosho Shorei Ryu. Perhaps that could help cut through the morass of misunderstanding as to the definition of technique etc. WHat does a typical Yellow belt, green belt and black belt test look like? Give us a description por favor.

 

[Flying Crane]

Probably be helpful if someone could describe what a belt test looked like in Kosho Shorei Ryu. Perhaps that could help cut through the morass of misunderstanding as to the definition of technique etc. WHat does a typical Yellow belt, green belt and black belt test look like? Give us a description por favor.

There's an interesting idea.

 

[Kosho-Monk]

I get the feeling that some of you want an easy answer that describes Kosho. Well, I don't think that's going to happen.

Kosho isn't one of those martial arts that can be summed up in a couple sentences.

If you are looking for an art that extends beyond the martial applications, then Kosho is a great study. If you're just looking to punch and kick your way out of situations, then probably any martial system will do.

I view Kosho as a study of Natural Law that goes beyond the physical aspects of self defense. For me Kosho is a life-study that helps me deal with conflicts ranging from the physical to the non-physical.

And because Kosho is such a vast practice, our physical self defense looks and feels different from anything I've studied before.

Yes, you can see similar ideas from other arts, but I really think that Kosho practitioners view and think about self defense much differently than other martial artists. At least that has been my experience when meeting and working out with other practitioners.

But again - you have to actually go to a class with a good Kosho teacher to really feel what I'm talking about.


Warm regards,
John

 

[Danjo]

I get the feeling that some of you want an easy answer that describes Kosho. Well, I don't think that's going to happen.

Kosho isn't one of those martial arts that can be summed up in a couple sentences.

If you are looking for an art that extends beyond the martial applications, then Kosho is a great study. If you're just looking to punch and kick your way out of situations, then probably any martial system will do.

I view Kosho as a study of Natural Law that goes beyond the physical aspects of self defense. For me Kosho is a life-study that helps me deal with conflicts ranging from the physical to the non-physical.

And because Kosho is such a vast practice, our physical self defense looks and feels different from anything I've studied before.

Yes, you can see similar ideas from other arts, but I really think that Kosho practitioners view and think about self defense much differently than other martial artists. At least that has been my experience when meeting and working out with other practitioners.

But again - you have to actually go to a class with a good Kosho teacher to really feel what I'm talking about.


Warm regards,
John

Well, I see from your webpage that you do have belt tests and that you post requirements for them. How about doing that here?

I also noticed that your a 5th degree in SKK. How does you current curriculum/requirements differ from SKK?

 

[sksk]

Danjo, i have to teach a class now but either later tonight or tomorrow I'll give a description of what i require a white to yellow adult should have for testing.

hope i can help

George

 

[Danjo]

Danjo, i have to teach a class now but either later tonight or tomorrow I'll give a description of what i require a white to yellow adult should have for testing.

hope i can help

George

Thanks.

 

[kosho]

Danjo Here is a Green belt test That I run and just held about 6 weeks ago. This is the written part Then there is a 5 Hr physical test that follows it.

Green Belt
Test
Name.________________________ Date: _________


List all your hand strikes from the top of the head down
1._________________________ 2.__________________________
3._________________________ 4.__________________________
5._________________________ 6.__________________________
7._________________________ 8.__________________________
9._________________________ 10._________________________
11.________________________ 12._________________________
13.________________________ 14._________________________
15.________________________ 16._________________________
17.________________________ 18._________________________
19.________________________ 20._________________________
21.________________________ 22._________________________
23.________________________ 24._________________________
25.________________________ 26._________________________
27.________________________ 28._________________________
29.________________________ 30._________________________
31.________________________ 32._________________________
33.________________________ 34._________________________

This all of your kicks and what kind of kick it is.
1.________________________________________
2.________________________________________
3.________________________________________
4.________________________________________
5.________________________________________
6.________________________________________
7.________________________________________
8.________________________________________
9.________________________________________
10._______________________________________
11._______________________________________
12._______________________________________
13._______________________________________
14._______________________________________
15._______________________________________
16._______________________________________
17._______________________________________
18._______________________________________

Why do we practice the 1-1 8-8 blocking drill.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________





List all five animals and what they teach us beyond the basic level.
1.____________________________________________________________________________
2.____________________________________________________________________________
3.____________________________________________________________________________
4.____________________________________________________________________________
5.____________________________________________________________________________



List all of your stances and the pros and cons behind them.

1.__________________________________________________________________________
2.__________________________________________________________________________
3.__________________________________________________________________________
4.__________________________________________________________________________
5.__________________________________________________________________________
6.__________________________________________________________________________
7.__________________________________________________________________________
8.__________________________________________________________________________
9.__________________________________________________________________________
10._________________________________________________________________________


Write out the kempo

#1._______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#2._______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

# 3_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#4.______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#5._______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________

#6.______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#7.________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#8.________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


#9._____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#10.__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#11.______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#12._____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


#13._______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#14.____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
#15._____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#16._____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#17._____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#18._____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


#19._____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

# 20. __________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Combinations Write out

#3beg_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#6._________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


#7.________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________






#4.________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#5______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#18.____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


#3 Adv.__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

#2________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



Dot Man:
Basic
List where 12 Dots are on the body

1.___________________________ 2.____________________________9._________________
3.___________________________ 4.____________________________10.________________
5.___________________________ 6.____________________________11.________________
7.___________________________ 8.____________________________12.________________

What in Kosho is the hands together mean? __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

What in Kosho with hands crossing and thumbs crossing is the meaning.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

What in Kosho with the hands left covering right mean?
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

What is Freezing in Kempo. __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________




What is the folding arts of Kempo
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________







From a right punch list the strong and weak dots.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ground fighting

What is ground fighting?___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Name a combination that has Folding arts in it. ______



What is Kosho _________________________________________________________________

What is Kempo._________________________________________________________________

What is shuto ________________ what is Dojo __________________________

Who is James Mitose ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

What does shaolin mean _______________________________________________________




Self defense Write out the steps for the all.

Paper given.



Forms

Write out 4.


What does 1 pinion teach name 3 things

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

What animal are you and why? __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

What have you learned from the teachings here at the Shaolin Kempo Training center.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________






Why should you be a Green Belt under Sensei Stephen E. Bonk and Master John Evans

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Score _____________________ Pass Fail


Instructor Sensei Stephen E. Bonk
.

 

[Benjp]

First off, rank advancement in kosho involves more than just understanding the principles of kosho. It also involves knowledge of kata, bunkai, history, and more. Don't think that rank advancement requirements somehow affect what the principles of kosho are..

Testing of the principles of kosho happens during what is called randoori. Randoori involves a single uke (or more depending on the skill level of the student being tested) and a tori. The uke attacks the tori.

White belt students must be able to use their "escaping technique" to avoid getting hit. More advanced students must use their skills learned in the form of waza to generate an on-the-fly defense technique that effectively stops the encounter.

Note: kosho "on-the-fly techniques" do not[ require the attacker to perform a specific attack. The uke chooses from grab, kick, punch, etc. The tori must successfully avoid getting hit. The uke will, however, set the pace and the distance which the attack occurs according to their ability level. The better the tori, the more polished and refined the on-the-fly technique will be.

Typically, a kyu-ranked (non-black belt) student will work hard to win the confrontation. An advanced student will make the confrontation look easy. A kosho master will look foolish and clumsy (to an observer, the uke will be confused and either very hurt or worried about being hurt).

We work these kinds of randoori exercises all the time with different basics. For example, in certain scenarios we must tuck our hands into our obis (belt) and use only our legs to escape and manipulate (geri waza/ashi sabaki).

In other exercises, we must end the confrontation with a throw (nage waza).

Many of the "seniors" in our system have migrated from other arts. I think that kosho ryu would be well suited for someone who had first learned a technique based curriculum.

Hope this helps,

Ben

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Danjo, here is a little quote from Yukiyoshi Takamura of Shindo Yoshin Ryu;

How did you come to reorganize the traditional curriculum of Shindo Yoshin-ryu?

That is a very complex question. Let me see if I can explain it clearly. Any martial art is really a set of concepts and ideas. Physical techniques are important but not the defining elements of a style. I have heard some people say that this is not true, that they have secret techniques. So what! I bet another style has techniques that are similar to their “secret techniques.” I would guess that what they actually have is more correctly described as secret concepts. All jujutsu traditions do similar joint locks because the joints in all human beings operate in the same way. There really are no new joint locks. It’s how they perform the locks that differentiate the styles. The concepts used in the application of the locks are what are important. These aspects are what make one tradition different from another. They are often the okuden.
When I came to America I discovered that many traditional techniques were simply not applicable to the realities facing my new students. Jujutsu techniques in their original form were not intended to address these modern situations. When I first started teaching, students began to ask me how I would deal with a boxer, or with a karateka and so on. At first I was surprised because I was not sure that I had the answers. I had to carefully examine this. I realized that the answers were right in front of me. I was busy focusing on jujutsu techniques when it was jujutsu concepts that were the solution. Techniques did not matter because they were guided by concepts. New techniques could be devised to address new realities while embracing the time honored concepts that form the art’s core. This would not be abandoning the art. This would allow the art to maintain its effectiveness and relevance to a new generation and era.

This in a nutshell describes the study of kosho.....quite simple really.
All of the other stuff is icing that we get to add to our cake.
Some folks tend to not look at kata like something special......but it really does bring something.

Traditional arts do not always traditionally teach the art from a catalogue of techniques......you may learn a few to develop a feel for a concept or principle that is directly applicable to all techniques.
Unless you understand that......a student wouldn't traditionaly move on to the okuden study of an art because they don't get it.

I know you're tenacious in your attempts at getting guys to go over and over the details of this art, and I'm sure you've read every reply closely and take great pride in watching people try to explain time and again until they've typed their fingers raw hoping you'll get it eventually.

Here is me saying, give it up guys........he doesn't care.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Excellent quote Black Cat.

I have given up. I tried in previous posts to explain the same things over and over again. I wouldn't have tried so long but I thought the problem was my inability to explain well enough and the diffuculty of putting something like Kosho into words. But these posts...

I'm still wondering about how Trias encouraged Mitose to start teaching when Mitose opened his school in 1942 in Hawaii and Trias didn't return to the USA until 1945 in Arizona.

I'm not sure of all the happenings and the timeline but this is what I've heard Juchnik relate several times he had been told by Trias and Young. Mitose is an enigma to say the least and he was definitely no saint.

The timeline is out there. Mitose started teaching in 1942 and Trias didn't get back to the states until 1945. There is no way that he could have been the one that encouraged Mitose to teach, so whoever said that was in error.

I don't have the answers but you seem pretty convinced that it could not have happened prior to Trias being shipped out or while Trias was in port in Hawaii as he was in the Navy. Not that they would use Hawaii for any Naval operations.

I can't change time and space. The Pre-War Trias was not a martial artist, so why whould he be talking to Mitose about teaching the martial arts? Where is your evidence that he met with Mitose in Hawaii?

Those posts make me believe that Danjo is only seeking to discredit Kosho and not really to learn about it. The logic of his argument seems flawed.

Just because Trias was not yet a martial artist does not mean he had no interest in martial arts or interest in talking to Mitose. In fact, since we know Trias had later become a martial artist how much more would he have been motivated to talk to Mitose especially if he had somehow learned Mitose was a Martia Arts Master.

In response to Danjo's request for evidence - I ask that he supply evidence that Mitose never met Trias in Hawaii. My evidence is two-fold; the occaison of meeting existed as Trias was even likely to be in Hawaii within the timeline due to his service in the Navy during WWII. Additionally; I have heard the testimony of Bruce Juchnik on more than one occaison- that it was in fact Trias who had encouraged Mitose to teach and he had head from Thomas Young that Trias knew Mitose before anyone else had.

_Don Flatt

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Well, I see from your webpage that you do have belt tests and that you post requirements for them. How about doing that here?

I also noticed that your a 5th degree in SKK. How does you current curriculum/requirements differ from SKK?

Danjo,

I think it would be best for you to become a student of mine. Then I could really teach you about Kosho as taught at my school.

Seriously though...

At this point I have to agree with BlackCatBonz in thinking that you don't really care to know what Kosho is about. Many of us have typed in lots of explainations and you are still not getting it. Kosho has nothing to do with a curriculum.

Visit a Kosho school near where you live and get a first hand experience of what Kosho is.


Take care,
John

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

"When you seek wisdom, look for similarities and ignore the nit-pickers. It is not wisdom they seek, rather they seek to attract attention, away from wisdom and to themselves, by creating artificial arguments and disharmony. Most differences are in phraseology."
- James M. Mitose "What is True Self Defense?" page 24.