Kenpo... On the Ground

[Kenpo Yahoo]

i have had opportunities to grapple some well trained individuals. Realizing that being on the ground is not the place for me, i would pinch nerves, bite arms, poke eyes and carpes testes. No grappler in the world can withstand the old grap, twist, pull on the nether regions.

Wow, ignorance abounds. If you can do these things what is to stop your opponent from doing these things back? Grappling is not simply about armbars and leg locks. It is about fighting for and maintaing a superior position. If I can create a superior position and you bite me to get out, sure as God made little green apples, I'm gonna pound your face into the ground. It takes zero skill to poke someone in the eyes or grab the testicles, yet in most instances it requires you to misalign yourself leaving you wide open.

I'm sure everyone has heard the old saying that kenpo has everything if you're just patient and willing to learn. What a croc of crap. So how many years do I need to be AT the art before I learn practical groundfighting? 10, 15, 20, 40? Gimme a break. I'm all about refinement of my art, but MOST of the KENPO groundfighters are incompetent at best and wouldn't last against someone with a true knowledge of grappling. A lot can be said for stopping the initial attack, which in a perfect world is ideal, but it sure would suck to find yourself on your back knowing that you only have to wait 10 more years to unlock the kenpo secrets that could save you today.

I re-submit the live television broadcast of Ed Parker performing a technique on Frank Trejo on some guys T.v. show. Mr. Parker stumbles and inadvertently ends up on the ground. If the father of American kenpo had bad days and ended up on the ground, why would you think you were impervious to this?

just food for thought.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Couple of you have mention about striking at the eyes when in a grappling situation. I have roll with a couple of people who have done or tried to do this to me. I just closed my eyes. I can still grapple with my eyes closed. My point is if all you think you need to do is strike some grappler in the eyes, better think again. Grapplers are also very good at controling arms to prevent you from striking at them.
Bob :asian:

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu
Couple of you have mention about striking at the eyes when in a grappling situation. I have roll with a couple of people who have done or tried to do this to me. I just closed my eyes. I can still grapple with my eyes closed. My point is if all you think you need to do is strike some grappler in the eyes, better think again. Grapplers are also very good at controling arms to prevent you from striking at them.
Bob :asian:

The one guy I rolled with left himself open to eye
gouges, and bites, big time.

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo


I'm all about refinement of my art, but MOST of the KENPO groundfighters are incompetent at best and wouldn't last against someone with a true knowledge of grappling.

You and I apparently don't know the same kenpoists.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Wow, ignorance abounds. If you can do these things what is to stop your opponent from doing these things back? Grappling is not simply about armbars and leg locks. It is about fighting for and maintaing a superior position. If I can create a superior position and you bite me to get out, sure as God made little green apples, I'm gonna pound your face into the ground. It takes zero skill to poke someone in the eyes or grab the testicles, yet in most instances it requires you to misalign yourself leaving you wide open.

I'm sure everyone has heard the old saying that kenpo has everything if you're just patient and willing to learn. What a croc of crap. So how many years do I need to be AT the art before I learn practical groundfighting? 10, 15, 20, 40? Gimme a break. I'm all about refinement of my art, but MOST of the KENPO groundfighters are incompetent at best and wouldn't last against someone with a true knowledge of grappling. A lot can be said for stopping the initial attack, which in a perfect world is ideal, but it sure would suck to find yourself on your back knowing that you only have to wait 10 more years to unlock the kenpo secrets that could save you today.

just food for thought.

Although I would try to be more diplomatic (after my brief vacation) I totaly agree with your sentiments. We cross train BJJ in our school ( which the local instructor has decided not to call Kenpo because we just arent fitting the profile anymore ) I used to believe I could minor move my way out of a grappling situation too but Ive been tapped out enough times to rethink that idea. I think that Kenpo compliments BJJ and does not conflict with it. This is just my humble opinion. (no stalkers please)

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Kenpo works on the ground against untrained grapplers. But a guy with 5 or 10 or 15 or 20 years Kenpo experience will not win on the ground against someone with similar grappling experience. Most grapplers can strike from the ground as well as Kenpo practitioners.
Kenpo does not make you invulnerable!

 

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Kenpo works on the ground against untrained grapplers. But a guy with 5 or 10 or 15 or 20 years Kenpo experience will not win on the ground against someone with similar grappling experience. Most grapplers can strike from the ground as well as Kenpo practitioners.
Kenpo does not make you invulnerable!

OFK... Your Olympian Pontifications are occasionally accurate, but often times ill-founded... The one thing I can agree with however, is that Kenpo does not make you invulnerable. :lol:

J/K Bro! But you probably could have left all of it out except the last sentence. :asian:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Sigung: I am glad you agree with me about the invulnerability thing. I am also glad you agree with my occasionally accurate but often ill-founded olympian pontifications. You know, I never thought of my pontifications as olympian before, but now that you mention it...

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Kenpo works on the ground against untrained grapplers. But a guy with 5 or 10 or 15 or 20 years Kenpo experience will not win on the ground against someone with similar grappling experience. Most grapplers can strike from the ground as well as Kenpo practitioners.
Kenpo does not make you invulnerable!

No doubt! But by the same token, if he spent all his time working
on grappling, he probably couldn't compete standing up against
the kenpoist. And your example doesn't work if he's not as
conditioned as the kenpoist and it depends on the rules of the
engagement. The UFC is NOT the best example.

 

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Kirk
No doubt! But by the same token, if he spent all his time working
on grappling, he probably couldn't compete standing up against
the kenpoist. And your example doesn't work if he's not as
conditioned as the kenpoist and it depends on the rules of the
engagement. The UFC is NOT the best example.

Kirk,

The insight here would be to not fight your opponent's fight. If he comes at you to grapple then don't grapple. That is not as easily done as said. However.... Anytime you involve yourself in a confrontation, and do not make the opponent fight against your strengths, then you are probably in trouble almost immediately, if not sooner.

This may, in fact, be the missing part of the equation. :lol:

Dan

 

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Sigung: I am glad you agree with me about the invulnerability thing. I am also glad you agree with my occasionally accurate but often ill-founded olympian pontifications. You know, I never thought of my pontifications as olympian before, but now that you mention it...

:asian: :lol: :asian:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Kirk: I agree with you. A BJJ guy who never trains standup is very possibly going to be going to the ground by himself and not getting up!

But let's look at how long it takes to get a Black Belt in Kenpo: 4-5 years if you train daily and have phenomenal talent and athletic ability. 6 - 8 years for most dedicated Kenpoists. 8-10 years to those with less natural talent/athletic ability and/or with less time to commit. You will spend virtually all of your time during those 5-10 years training standup unless your school has gone beyond the Kenpo curriculum to incorporate grappling.

Let's look at how long it takes to get a Black Belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu: about the same as Kenpo. The difference is that almost all BJJ Black Belts will have spent a small but significant portion of their training on Vale Tudo training including standup strikes, kicks, clinches, takedowns, and strikes on the ground.

Put a Kenpo and BJJ blackbelt of equal size, condition, and ability against each other: The Kenpo guy will likely win standup, but if it goes to the ground, the Kenpo guy will be toast. That is the lesson of the early UFC. Many Kenpo schools have embraced this reality and have supplemented their curriculum with BJJ or submission wrestling.

If you personally rolled with a BJJ guy and thought you could gouge, poke or bite him, then your eyes were open and he could gouge, poke or bite you. He just chose not to just as you choose not to gouge, poke or bite when you spar fellow kenpoists.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Point is if you don't practice any ground fighting material at all, because you feel you wouldn't end up on the ground. Then why did you take up martial arts. was it to insure you could defend yourself or be capable of defending yourself. How do you know if you are capable of defending yourself from a stand up position. You practice techniques to enable yourself to defend against any possible stand up attack. Back in the early 50's and 60's Judo and jujutsu had tournaments against each other. Back then Judo was kicking jujutsu *** all over the place. Was it because judo took out all the deadly techniques. No Was it because they had less techniques. No Was it because they grappled No. The reason they live sparred with each other. The exact reason BJJ does so good. Because they practice with a partner who is trying not to let them get a certain technique on them. To me it is easier to get into a standup grappling position, do a takedown, get a superior ground postion and beat the crap out of them. Then it is to try and punch and kick and keep them back away from me.
Bob :asian:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Right on Kempo Jujitsu.

A real key to this debate is this: Are Kenpo ground techniques and principles effective against BJJ grappling techniques? Those who've never tried BJJ say yes. Those who have say no.

You've hit on the other key to this debate: Your point about live sparring is also lost on those who've never done it. Running techniques in a line is not live sparring. Point sparring with safety gear is not live sparring. Live sparring is indeed the BJJ advantage. That is more important than the specific techniques and whether the fight is vertical or horizontal.

 

[Touch Of Death]

The problem with kenpoists is that they choose to ignore their own logic. The eight considerations clearly state that position comes before manuever and target; so, the idea that you can work those ideas against a positional fighter is folly. Yea, you can get to him at his critical distance but as any boxer knows when you sick of getting hit you just close the distance. good luck on that single shot knock out fellow kenpoists. I'm working on it myself but I, at least, am developing a plan B.

 

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
The problem with kenpoists is that they choose to ignore their own logic. The eight considerations clearly state that position comes before manuever and target; so, the idea that you can work those ideas against a positional fighter is folly. Yea, you can get to him at his critical distance but as any boxer knows when you sick of getting hit you just close the distance. good luck on that single shot knock out fellow kenpoists. I'm working on it myself but I, at least, am developing a plan B.

So... You're saying that you can't strike effectively in close? Used to be an old Kenpo axiom... "If you're close enough, there's room enough"... Guess folks aren't teaching that nowadays. We also used to be called the Kings of Phone Booth fighting... Wonder how many can remember phone booths? :rofl:

 

[rmcrobertson]

First off, let me write it again: the problem I have with all this hooraw about Brazilian jiu-jitsu isn't that it doesn't work. And it isn't that I'm claiming to know absolutely everything I ever need to know. It's that I've no interest in haring off after every new style that comes my way, so that I can fill in the gaps of my skills and someday--mirabile dictu!--reach that point of invulnerability. What'll it be after BJJ? Kali for knives, escrima for sticks, something else for guns? A Star Wars system in the backyard, for those North Korean missile attacks we're all so vulnerable to? All the aluminum foil in the world, in case the sun goes nova?

At some point, ya gotta accept your own vulnerability. Running around to patch every single hole--it just isn't rational, for nearly all of us. What we can reasonably do--beyond keeping water and food and a pipe wrench in the house, in case the Big One hits--is study a strong martial arts system and train hard.

Before position, it's worth noting about those considerations of combat, come a) acceptance, b) environmental awareness, and c) range. Why in the hell am I going to stand in closish and square off against some guy? So I can get slammed on my back? Is grappling supposed to be a common mugger's tactic? Yes, absolutely, Tank Abbott's gonna hand me my lunch. Yes, absolutely--and studying BJJ (I still say, do something about that abbreviation) is not going to change that fact for a second.

I might note that I cannot for the life of me figure out what that, "one hit KO," bidness means. It certainly doesn't fit with any kenpo techniques I've ever seen...which are, philosophically, built around always having a backup approach to self-defense.

I agree with Sigung 86, perhaps because I spent a significant portion of last night working the phone-booth-range aspects of Gift of Destiny in Mr. Tatum's Wednesday night class...the previous week, we'd worked some of the chin na aspects of the outset of Short 3, after working through warm-ups that included some mods/grapplings for Dance of Death...or so I thought, since I guess I couldn't actually have been doing this stuff at all, what with the way kenpo doesn't include any of it...musta been the heat...

Come on, guys. Nobody's putting down your studies--at least, I'm not. But I am getting a little tired of being told that I'm not studying what I am studying, or that I have to run off and study something else because somebody else is, or that I'm being blindly religious...

But anyway, it's at least an interesting argument.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Oh, they are teaching it all right, it just doesn't seem to work against thos BJJ guys. Go figure. Are you suggesting the eight considerations are wrong or am I just not reading it right?

 

[rmcrobertson]

If this was a response to what I just wrote, you're not reading it right.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Actualy I was posting to sigung at the same time you posted and it beat mine. Sorry for the confusion.