Kenpo Knife and Club Techniques

[Kenpoist]

Out of curiosity..your information says you're a blue belt in EPAK. How well versed are you in the knife/gun/stick techniques to say whether they are adequate or not? In every EPAK school I've ever visited or trained in you wouldn't have been exposed to the knife/gun except by observation at that level. And there is no perfect system against ANYTHING. SHOW ME the "perfect" system against punches/kicks/tackles/shoots/etc. and show me the expert. I guarantee myself and easily 200 other martial artists I know will nail the expert with the said technique. Your post seems to be anti-crosstraining but you mention 3 seperate systems in your information. I'm curious. Martial artists need to stop training to beat the "regular Joe" and start training to beat "the expert". If someone need Years on top of Years of training JUST to beat the inexperienced local idiot then they need to re-evaluate their training. The real problem is people claim to teach and learn self defense but don't want to train for the really hard self defense scenarios such as (wait for it) trained-experienced attackers. That's why many who say they're in the arts for self defense are really just hobbyists with false bravado looking to say "I know how to defend myself" whether it's true or not. And I'm not saying YOU I'mspeaking in generalities.

My personal opinion and how I train myself and my students: Simple. The worst scenario we can come up with we train for it. Whatever nasty situation we can think of we prepare as much as possible. I'd rather know a good way to defend against a skilled knife-wielder and not need it than need it (i.e. can't run away) and not know it. Suppose there is a skilled knife wielder/attacker and I'm walking with my 4 year old son? Can't out run him carrying a 40 pound child now can I? So what do I do now? That's how I train. Others might want to get over the training for the "best case scenario." If that's all we train for we might as well not train at all.

Reference to the proceeding comments - Good points! Of course it is best to expect the unexpected - my point is that I feel that kenpo (the way it is supposed to be taught) has the most realistic SD training I have ever seen, but it is not always taught properly. I'm sure there are techniques out there that you don't like or that don't seem effective. I had several techniques that I felt that way about, until I found an instructor that "opened my eyes" to the way SGM Parker intended for the system to be taught.

Yes, I am a blue belt - soon to be green -but due to my profession, my instructor has given me more insight into weapons training than would normally be taught at this level.


My comment about being paranoid may be too strong - hope for the best , train for the worst. Be aware of your surroundings and train for life and death.

If you are interested in other arts, by all means train in them. I have had to train in other arts when EPAK was not available to me.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Reference to the proceeding comments - Good points! Of course it is best to expect the unexpected - my point is that I feel that kenpo (the way it is supposed to be taught) has the most realistic SD training I have ever seen, but it is not always taught properly. I'm sure there are techniques out there that you don't like or that don't seem effective. I had several techniques that I felt that way about, until I found an instructor that "opened my eyes" to the way SGM Parker intended for the system to be taught.

Yes, I am a blue belt - soon to be green -but due to my profession, my instructor has given me more insight into weapons training than would normally be taught at this level.


My comment about being paranoid may be too strong - hope for the best , train for the worst. Be aware of your surroundings and train for life and death.

If you are interested in other arts, by all means train in them. I have had to train in other arts when EPAK was not available to me.

OK, now I understand where you're coming from. Thanks for the reply. Hope for the best, train for the worst? EXACTLY!!! That's how I feel. And You're right about the 'way kenpo is taught in some places is not the proper way' but I wouldn't get too hung up on "the way Mr. Parker intended the system to be" as that changed depending on who Mr. Parker was teaching and what year it was to my understanding. Doc would be better equiped to expound on that point than I.

 

[Seabrook]

Okay, so far this thread has been interesting, but very generalized.

Let's discuss some specifics.

Which techniques, be it club, knife, or gun, does everyone have a problem with in terms of application? Many people generalize by saying they don't like some of the weapons techniques, but they don't give specifics or why's. List as many as you can and maybe we can work through them to get a better understanding of how they should be applied and where the perceived weaknesses exist.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Okay, so far this thread has been interesting, but very generalized.

Let's discuss some specifics.

Which techniques, be it club, knife, or gun, does everyone have a problem with in terms of application? Many people generalize by saying they don't like some of the weapons techniques, but they don't give specifics or why's. List as many as you can and maybe we can work through them to get a better understanding of how they should be applied and where the perceived weaknesses exist.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

I'll bite, but seeking further clarity first. Everyone I've trained with has taught them a bit differently; some better than others. Some have imbued the techniques with a savvy that comes from Phillipino arts cross training; some with sheer testosterone-driven intent to wreak havoc; and some with greater sophistication and thought into the details that matter. So, in consideration that I've never learned the same technique the same way from any of the profs I've been blessed to train with, which one? Which Techs? Version?

Start with some descriptions, and I'll add my 2 cents. But I'z iz not sure where to start.

Regards,

Dave

 

[MJS]

Okay, so far this thread has been interesting, but very generalized.

Let's discuss some specifics.

Which techniques, be it club, knife, or gun, does everyone have a problem with in terms of application? Many people generalize by saying they don't like some of the weapons techniques, but they don't give specifics or why's. List as many as you can and maybe we can work through them to get a better understanding of how they should be applied and where the perceived weaknesses exist.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

The reason I started this thread, was because I found the thread with the link that I posted to be interesting, as it was addressing one specific weapon. I figured we'd discuss the blade and club. One thing that I noticed was missing from that linked thread, and I just might not be seeing it clearly, is some detailed discussion on how those gun techs. need to be 'tweaked' in order to work. I saw much discussion about the SL4 method vs. the 'motion' or 'commercial' method, but no detailed explainations. 2 pages and I didn't see one clear cut explaination. This is what I was hoping to achieve here.

My original question was: Is there anything that needs to be 'tweaked' on the knife and club techs. or will they work fine w/o any 'tweaking'? I see 2 groups: 1 saying that they are fine the way they are, and another saying that modifications need to be made. I don't recall saying that they won't work but simply that we may want to look at how other arts, such as a blade or stick based art, addresses defenses.

I agree with you Jamie... To start, I think that we should take 1 defense from each: a club, gun and blade defense, break it down, and see if there are any 'weak spots' or if it is as you say, just perceived.

Mike

 

[Flying Crane]

I personally like some of the club defenses in the Tracy system, but have some very strong reservations regarding the knife defenses. Most of them don't control the blade very well, and I believe there is a strong possibility that you are going to get cut very badly. In some cases, is seems like you are taking the risk of almost throwing your fist onto the point of the blade. Very dangerous.

In light of some of the other comments made, I suppose I may not understand the techniques fully, or perhaps I have not delved deeply enough into them to get them to work, or perhaps my instructor failed to teach me in a way that lead me to understand them, but the bottom line is that I simply do not trust them, and do not practice them anymore. My instructor has also expressed his doubts about these techniques. I also checked them against the videos that Mr. Tracy made in about 1980, and I didn't see anything that gave me any extra insights or confidence in them. I think there must be better options available, either by modifying or creating techniques within the Kenpo system, or borrowing from other systems.

Michael

 

[Seabrook]

You raise some interesting concerns, and to be honest, I forgot about this thread.

Interestingly, I still haven't seen anyone name a specific technique that they feel won't work. So far, it's been limited to generalizations.

So, the heck with it. Let's give this thread some life. I will choose one club, one knife, and one gun technique.

Let's get everyone take on Checking the Storm, Thrusting Lance, and Defying the Rod.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Flying Crane]

You raise some interesting concerns, and to be honest, I forgot about this thread.

Interestingly, I still haven't seen anyone name a specific technique that they feel won't work. So far, it's been limited to generalizations.

So, the heck with it. Let's give this thread some life. I will choose one club, one knife, and one gun technique.

Let's get everyone take on Checking the Storm, Thrusting Lance, and Defying the Rod.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

do you happen to know if these techniques correlate to certain techniques in the Tracy system? or could you provide a brief description? thanks.
I have forgotten the names of most of the Tracys knife, gun, and stick defenses, so I will check these, and then post my contribution.

michael

 

[MisterMike]

You really don't have to look much beyond the empty hand techniques to find ones that will not work.

They teach ideas and the use of various principles, but hardly any of them are gonna come off in the real world as they are written.

To accomodate this, the Kenpo practitioner learns to adapt to the "what-if's" and simply move into another "technique." (Although this is not limited to Kenpo practitioners.)

 

[Seabrook]

You really don't have to look much beyond the empty hand techniques to find ones that will not work.

They teach ideas and the use of various principles, but hardly any of them are gonna come off in the real world as they are written.

To accomodate this, the Kenpo practitioner learns to adapt to the "what-if's" and simply move into another "technique." (Although this is not limited to Kenpo practitioners.)

Oh, no...another broad generalization about "techniques" (note the plural sense, not anything specific).

I couldn't disagree with you more by the way.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[parkerkarate]

You raise some interesting concerns, and to be honest, I forgot about this thread.

Interestingly, I still haven't seen anyone name a specific technique that they feel won't work. So far, it's been limited to generalizations.

So, the heck with it. Let's give this thread some life. I will choose one club, one knife, and one gun technique.

Let's get everyone take on Checking the Storm, Thrusting Lance, and Defying the Rod.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Thrusting Lance, hmmmmm, the first half of the technique might work but once you start slicing the guy I think that is where things will not work. Defying the Rod I think you will get killed right away because you need to hop to the side. Ok I can understand Leaping Crane and doing that but when you have a gun to your chest, come on.

 

[Seabrook]

Thrusting Lance, hmmmmm, the first half of the technique might work but once you start slicing the guy I think that is where things will not work. Defying the Rod I think you will get killed right away because you need to hop to the side. Ok I can understand Leaping Crane and doing that but when you have a gun to your chest, come on.

Thrusting Lance - This technique starts in a right neutral bow as we try to frame the attack so that the opponent will try to stab towards our ribs or stomach area. We then move from point of origin as we step to 4:30 and smash down on the opponent's attacking arm to the radial nerve. Like any weapon attack (which involves CONSIDERABLE RISK), if we are able to get the block, grab to the groin, elbow break, wrist break, and so on in Thrusting Lance, the rest should be the easy part. So I am not in agreement that the later parts of the technique would not work. Also, we only start slicing the guy should the opponent still have the Knife and we have to disarm (which I highly doubt would be the case if you executed your strikes hard and to the precise targets).

Defying the Rod - where is the hop to the side????? The opponent tells us to put our hands up and as he does we simultaneously do our left outward hooking parry and grab, and at the same time a right front kick to the groin, and a right hand spear to the attacker's eyes. Where is the hop?

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[parkerkarate]

Thrusting Lance - This technique starts in a right neutral bow as we try to frame the attack so that the opponent will try to stab towards our ribs or stomach area. We then move from point of origin as we step to 4:30 and smash down on the opponent's attacking arm to the radial nerve. Like any weapon attack (which involves CONSIDERABLE RISK), if we are able to get the block, grab to the groin, elbow break, wrist break, and so on in Thrusting Lance, the rest should be the easy part. So I am not in agreement that the later parts of the technique would not work. Also, we only start slicing the guy should the opponent still have the Knife and we have to disarm (which I highly doubt would be the case if you executed your strikes hard and to the precise targets).

Defying the Rod - where is the hop to the side????? The opponent tells us to put our hands up and as he does we simultaneously do our left outward hooking parry and grab, and at the same time a right front kick to the groin, and a right hand spear to the attacker's eyes. Where is the hop?

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Geeze Mr. Petro taught me wrong once again

 

[MisterMike]

Yea, it's great when things work in the ideal phase, and "by the book."

But anyone who's actually been in a scuffle will tell you things rarely go as "planned."

To further clarify my last post, the shorter techs like Delayed Sword and Sword of Destruction may work but once you get into the longer techs or ones with extensions, you can't possibly expect them to come off "by the book." Hence the study of the "what-if's." Position recognition. Variations. Anyone who says this technique will work for "this" or "that" every time (or guaranteed to work even once) is a fraud in my book. I'll stand by my last post. Techniques teach ideas and principles but you have to knwo how and when to switch between them.

But it sure is nice to pretend and feel all tough in class. That's what sells today.

 

[Seabrook]

But anyone who's actually been in a scuffle will tell you things rarely go as "planned."

To further clarify my last post, the shorter techs like Delayed Sword and Sword of Destruction may work but once you get into the longer techs or ones with extensions, you can't possibly expect them to come off "by the book." Hence the study of the "what-if's." Position recognition. Variations. Anyone who says this technique will work for "this" or "that" every time (or guaranteed to work even once) is a fraud in my book. I'll stand by my last post. Techniques teach ideas and principles but you have to knwo how and when to switch between them.

Should an ideal technique not work as planned, there is another ideal phase technique that we can blend into.

About the extensions....these offer "what-if" scenarios should the ideal phase go wrong. I agree that in most cases you wouldn't pull of an entire technique with its extension, but often, these are not what the extensions were meant for.

To be honest Mike, you still haven't offered one ideal phase technique that wouldn't work...

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Kenpodoc]

I can nit pick the Kenpo Knife and gun techniques (the knife techniques go to the inside too much in my opinion.) but I know that very skilled people can make them all work. The big problem I see is that there are only a handful of techniques for each weapon and there need to be more techniques to truly teach weapon defense. The Kenpo Knife and Gun techniques enhance the overall curriculum but are only a taste of Kenpo application in a field that would need further lessons to truly teach Knife and gun application.

Respectfully,

Jeff

 

[MisterMike]

Hi Jamie,

Lately I am trying not to respond directly to people but just add to the thread in a more general manner. But I think we're roughly on the same page. I've boldened your owrds that sound about the same as what I was saying.

Should an ideal technique not work as planned, there is another ideal phase technique that we can blend into.

About the extensions....these offer "what-if" scenarios should the ideal phase go wrong. I agree that in most cases you wouldn't pull of an entire technique with its extension, but often, these are not what the extensions were meant for.

To be honest Mike, you still haven't offered one ideal phase technique that wouldn't work...

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

That's because they all work when it's ideal

I'll ask this though: How many techniques come out when it's time to spar? How many will come out when you're on the street then?

 

[Seabrook]

I'll ask this though: How many techniques come out when it's time to spar? How many will come out when you're on the street then?

That depends on what type of rules you are using.

I recently fought full-contact against a guy who has a black belt in jiu-jitsu. We were allowed to fight stand-up and on the ground and I felt that the ram techniques saved me in many situations, especially because I didn't want the fight to go to the ground. While I certainly had to modify strikes (ie. no elbows to the spine, or handsword strikes to the back of the neck), I could see the techniques as they were occuring and most of them worked as written.

Don't get me wrong. I got banged up as well, but it was a great learning experience, and I came to realize how well our techniques can actually be applied when going full-out and without any choreographed situations.

Okay Mike. After re-reading some of your posts, I agree that we tend to agree more than we disagree.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[MJS]

Should an ideal technique not work as planned, there is another ideal phase technique that we can blend into.

Thats true. Being able to flow from one to the next w/o having to think. Funny you should say that, as I had a conversation with someone last week about that very topic.

About the extensions....these offer "what-if" scenarios should the ideal phase go wrong. I agree that in most cases you wouldn't pull of an entire technique with its extension, but often, these are not what the extensions were meant for.

Ahhh...we can't forget about those extensions. Despite what some call "busy work", they do have alot of value.

I guess what I was hoping for, was an explaination of what "tweaking" needed to be done. If we go back to my first post, I posted a link to another thread, in which it was mentioned that the gun techs. needed a 'tweak'. I was simply curious as to what needed to be done.

Mike

 

[kenpoworks]

MJS aka Mike's original question........"So my question is, what are everyones thoughts on the knife and club disarms? Do they need to be improved upon or are they fine the way that they are"?.........
My opinion on all Kenpo Techniques is that they are not meant to be absolute answers but flexible Ideas,so..."Do they need to be improved upon"(mjs)...well if that means working on them, developing them, using the many variables to expand them,etc., etc. well...yes.

..."or are they fine the way that they are?"(mjs),.. nope, because thats not Kenpo!
Richie.