Kenpo Blade Work

[bujuts]

"Dueling with a skilled knife-fighter is sheer stupidity. Much like trying to out swin a shark.

Amen, Doc. The way I run my life and keep my peace, by and large such discussions of dealing with a skilled knife fighter will for me be academic, and nothing more. My greatest challenges are on the mats, not off of them. And I just assume keep it that way until the day I retire to the dirt.

Besides, I room and travel with Dan Wesson. Great guy.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF

 

[JamesB]

Granted, the empty hand is used as a countering item to parry and block. By and large this will work against your arm during a back and forth ebb and flow engagement, but it will not stand up to the freight train of your invading mass. In empty handed kenpo, we'd capitalize on this as we invade, pinning the offending arm to the torso as we assault. IMHO, our approach shouldn't differ just because he has a knife. The same principle applies.

Not sure how to respond to this, other than say I'm not qualified to state whether or not the proper action to take is to 'invade' the attacker's space as he is attacking. Personally I don't want to be anywhere near the attacker when he's thrusting/slashing a knife at me - in my mind keeping him at (a minimum!) of arm's length would be the ideal. But I think I'm misunderstanding what you are saying here.

I'd like to hear the thoughts of others. There is nothing wrong with blending FMA into kenpo - this practice has put out alot of talented practitioners, not the least of which has been the subject of discussion here. I'm aware what I'm proposing is contrary to many some beneath FMA systems. However, if you look at the kenpo knife system, it operates the same as the empty handed system.

Your thoughts?

I essentially agree with what you're saying - especially about keeping the encounter as short and decisive as possible. However the thing I liked about the knife-drill was not the fact that it was a drawn-out, essentially choreographed knife fight, but rather it seemed like a good vehicle for developing sponteneity. It wasn't so much the step-by-step actions that were important, but rather learning to deal with the attackers reactions. Anyway I have very little knowledge in this area and definitely don't feel qualified to comment on the effectiveness of either method of training.

James​

 

[JamesB]

Dueling with a skilled knife-fighter is sheer stupidity. Much like trying to out swin a shark. You may survive for a brief moment, but ultimately, you will lose. You must attack the attacker to have any chance of surviving the encounter." - Ron Chapél

Amen, Doc. The way I run my life and keep my peace, by and large such discussions of dealing with a skilled knife fighter will for me be academic, and nothing more. My greatest challenges are on the mats, not off of them. And I just assume keep it that way until the day I retire to the dirt.

Mmmm you've (both) got my vote. Although the likelyhood of being attacked by a knife is (I believe) greater in the UK (compared to a gun being used), I wonder how likely it would be - to be attacked and then engage with a trained knife expert 'mano e mano' style...."not very" is my guess, and should such a person want to kill you surely they'll just sneak up and stab you from behind?

 

[TChase]

All excellent thoughts and posts Mr. Brown. As I've said before you have an incredible skill with putting this stuff in print. I don't care to admit how long it would've taken me to try and put all you have down in writing myself.


Doc, that's a great quote. And not to divert the conversation but I would love to hear your thoughts on the idea of "you're going to get cut no matter what" when dealing with a bladed assault. Do you feel this is a helpful or negative mindset to adopt in such a situation?

 

[Doc]

All excellent thoughts and posts Mr. Brown. As I've said before you have an incredible skill with putting this stuff in print. I don't care to admit how long it would've taken me to try and put all you have down in writing myself.


Doc, that's a great quote. And not to divert the conversation but I would love to hear your thoughts on the idea of "you're going to get cut no matter what" when dealing with a bladed assault. Do you feel this is a helpful or negative mindset to adopt in such a situation?

In law enforcement and the military sir we teach a 'survival mindset.' Just because you get shot or cut, doesn't mean you're going to die. Accept the possibility that it could happen, but do not let it cause you to 'give up.' I've seen some advocate the "I will never get cut" mindset as if we are not fallible. They suggest 'you must believe that it won't happen to you.' The theory being to 'be positive in your mindset and not negative.' It has been proven that mindset can cause you to go into shock. Further, it violates Mr. Parker's own thoughts on the subject of survival in an encounter, and a large part of common sense and logic sir.

"Most people are oblivious to danger. Others disregard danger, convinced that danger will never be a part of their life. However, whatever your attitude might be, be realistic and ACCEPT the fact that impending dangers do exist, and consider them seriously. Once you accept the existence of these impending dangers and realize that logical measures of prevention can help to avoid them, you have inherently armed yourself with a prime weapon against attack.

You must then create the DESIRE to do something about it, have the CONVICTION to begin your study of preventive measures, and instill the WILLPOWER to see your desire to completion under any circumstances that you might survive." - Ed Parker Sr. (Taken from the Intoduction of his last written version of the Yellow Belt Manual)

 

[Doc]

I have only had one experience with a knife "fight." One men had a knife, and the other one was on the floor with that guy's wife. Neither of the men had any kind of training, so this isn't exactly related, but it was a scary situation. By the time pictures were taken of the scene, the unarmed man was dead, and the attacker was covered in blood(the other guy's). It was hard to tell who the victim was.
When my husband arrived at the scene he asked the guy to put down the knife, and the guy did. That was how my husband used his training.
I'll tell you what, if he had decided to jump in there to save the guy instead of using his brain, I would have laid into him myself when he got home!
I know this is a bit off subject, but I thaught it was important to mention how you can use other things than you body in a fight. Aaron tells people thet he uses his kenpo every day. I think this is what he is talking about.

Aaron is no dummy. He married you didn't he?

 

[Hand Sword]

I general I agree - especially with the kenpo-knife 'base' techniques - a FMA (under which I believe Pekiti-Tersia would fall??) would be superior for knife/stick fighting against skilled opponents. After all these systems were developed, and 'stress tested' with this goal specifically in mind.

However do take the time to see what other (non-mainstream) people are doing with this stuff. I simply can't do justice in explaining what Mr Whitson has done with the kenpo techniques as I've not spent any serious time studying it.

I have done so for over 10 yrs. From lots of people from the Kempo and Kenpo communities. There are diffrerences, but, nothing new under the sun. I've also studied Silat and Kali, and I would trust that more. As you said it is stress tested.

 

[Hand Sword]

Well that would depend on what Kenpo knife stuff you've been exposed to wouldn't it?

The problem with whole "knife fighting" idea is that there really is no "knife fighting"...just knife killing. Someone who attacks you with murderous intent isn't going to duel with you. Criminal violence is fast and brutal and if not dealt with at the onset of the engagement the results can be disastrous. There will be no back and forth.

No, not really. They are all little differences under the same theories. As I've said, I have dealt with lots from the Kempo/kenpo communites, and I still say go with the FMA's. (First I'd say don't even do it! Run away!!!).

Second, Agreed! There is only knife killing. But, maybe I read it wrong, don't assume the FMA systems is about duelling only. They are fighting systems that deal exclusively with sticks and bladed weapons. Therefore are better adapted. They have reasonable defenses to study.

 

[Hand Sword]

"Dueling with a skilled knife-fighter is sheer stupidity. Much like trying to out swin a shark. You may survive for a brief moment, but ultimately, you will lose. You must attack the attacker to have any chance of surviving the encounter." - Ron Chapél

Excellent point Sir! (but, again, I would add, run away if able first!)

 

[bujuts]

Not sure how to respond to this, other than say I'm not qualified to state whether or not the proper action to take is to 'invade' the attacker's space as he is attacking. Personally I don't want to be anywhere near the attacker when he's thrusting/slashing a knife at me - in my mind keeping him at (a minimum!) of arm's length would be the ideal. But I think I'm misunderstanding what you are saying here.
​

Greetings, thanks for the reply.

All of these discussions are of course under the assumption that we are required to engage - avoiding, running, and shooting are of course always the best options.

Where I'm going with this is that IF we are actually required to engage and take out an assailant with a blade, we must take the approach the kenpo does so well - to deflect the initial attack, dominate his body and space, and destroy him (personally, I'm not a fan of using submission and compliance when it comes to a life and death scenario). We can stay at an arms length and do damage, no doubt, but bear in mind that if we are to attack the major skeletal structure to the point of maiming or killing, we must get up close and all sorts of personal. This means invading his Four Rings (4th Ring = foot range, 3rd = Hand range, 2nd = knee range, 1st = elbow range), and directly attacking and gaining control of his mass and skeleton.

Emtpy hand or bladed kenpo, when you invade the spine you take over, and when dealing with an armed assailant we must cancel dimensions and spare him no capacity to act against us.

In our group, we describe a controlled engagement in eight stages: 1) Out of Range and within your tactical area of response, 2) In range (i.e. entering your own Four Rings), 3) Contact penetration, 4) Impact Manipulation, 5) Contact Manipulation, 6) Contact maintenance, 7) Release, and 8) Extraction (cover). To cut you, the attacker has brought you to step no. 2. We proceed through to 6 which is when you've done the damage and now have physical control over his body, and can make a strategic assessment - escape (steps 7 and 8), re-engage as necessary (3 through 6 again), take on his buddies (1 through 8), etc.

Anyway, that's where I was going with the discussion of range. Does that make sense?

I suppose all of this talk of fighting against knives would lead an outsider to think we're all nuts, and probably invites mockery from knife enthusiasts. I can stress enough the importance of Doc's advice: taking on a trained knife fighter (or any knife for that matter) when its not mandatory to do so is insane. But, we all know we should run first, we all know to get the tire iron or pool stick, or to draw. But this discussion is of kenpo against a blade, and as long as readers take it in that context, I feel this is a very important topic.

Thank you for your posts. Cheers and good day.

Steven Brown
Universal Kenpo Federation
Phoenix, Arizona

 

[TChase]

No, not really. They are all little differences under the same theories. As I've said, I have dealt with lots from the Kempo/kenpo communites, and I still say go with the FMA's. (First I'd say don't even do it! Run away!!!).

While you are entiled to your opinion and I certainly respect that, I wouldn't be so quick to say "there is little difference under the same theories". There are huge differences within American Kenpo itself, let alone its difference to other Kempo/Kenpo styles. Just some food for thought my friend.

 

[Doc]

While you are entiled to your opinion and I certainly respect that, I wouldn't be so quick to say "there is little difference under the same theories". There are huge differences within American Kenpo itself, let alone its difference to other Kempo/Kenpo styles. Just some food for thought my friend.

Ditto.

 

[Hand Sword]

While you are entiled to your opinion and I certainly respect that, I wouldn't be so quick to say "there is little difference under the same theories". There are huge differences within American Kenpo itself, let alone its difference to other Kempo/Kenpo styles. Just some food for thought my friend.

That's exactly what all of this is-- everyone's opinion and preferences. From what I've seen in those "communities" over the last 10 yrs are not huge differences. EPAK is EPAK ultimately speaking, unless your a SL4 Stylist (right Doc?). Your techniques and theories are theirs as well, from the same Man. The only differences are the Tailorings involved in their execution. If I can offer some food back, here it is : If you want to learn to cook go to a chef. If you want to learn blades go with FMA's. Again, it's my opininion from my experiences.

 

[JamesB]

Greetings, thanks for the reply.

All of these discussions are of course under the assumption that we are required to engage - avoiding, running, and shooting are of course always the best options.

Where I'm going with this is that IF we are actually required to engage and take out an assailant with a blade, we must take the approach the kenpo does so well - to deflect the initial attack, dominate his body and space, and destroy him (personally, I'm not a fan of using submission and compliance when it comes to a life and death scenario). We can stay at an arms length and do damage, no doubt, but bear in mind that if we are to attack the major skeletal structure to the point of maiming or killing, we must get up close and all sorts of personal. This means invading his Four Rings (4th Ring = foot range, 3rd = Hand range, 2nd = knee range, 1st = elbow range), and directly attacking and gaining control of his mass and skeleton.

Emtpy hand or bladed kenpo, when you invade the spine you take over, and when dealing with an armed assailant we must cancel dimensions and spare him no capacity to act against us.

In our group, we describe a controlled engagement in eight stages: 1) Out of Range and within your tactical area of response, 2) In range (i.e. entering your own Four Rings), 3) Contact penetration, 4) Impact Manipulation, 5) Contact Manipulation, 6) Contact maintenance, 7) Release, and 8) Extraction (cover). To cut you, the attacker has brought you to step no. 2. We proceed through to 6 which is when you've done the damage and now have physical control over his body, and can make a strategic assessment - escape (steps 7 and 8), re-engage as necessary (3 through 6 again), take on his buddies (1 through 8), etc.

Anyway, that's where I was going with the discussion of range. Does that make sense?

that makes perfect sense, thanks for the explanation!
cheers,
James

 

[Hand Sword]

Theoretical sense? Yes. However, easier said than done.

 

[bujuts]

Theoretical sense? Yes. However, easier said than done.

Very true. Its all nice and organized on paper, but when the mierda is hitting the ventilador, theory an concepts are out the window. Its boils down to the meat and potatoes that only rigorous and effective training will provide. I think the concepts, strategies, etc. are important because help our analytical minds guide our kenpo path, but I agree that they serve no purpose in the moment of the confrontation.

Enjoyed this topic immensely.

Steven Brown
UKF

 

[Doc]

Very true. Its all nice and organized on paper, but when the mierda is hitting the ventilador, theory an concepts are out the window. Its boils down to the meat and potatoes that only rigorous and effective training will provide. I think the concepts, strategies, etc. are important because help our analytical minds guide our kenpo path, but I agree that they serve no purpose in the moment of the confrontation.

Enjoyed this topic immensely.

Steven Brown
UKF

While I agree wholeheartedly, I feel the same applies to every aspect of a physical confrontation and not just a 'knife' attack. None of it is as simple as some would suggest in reality.

 

[TChase]

That's exactly what all of this is-- everyone's opinion and preferences. From what I've seen in those "communities" over the last 10 yrs are not huge differences.

Which was exactly my point. What you've seen and all that is out there are two seperate things entirely.

Your techniques and theories are theirs as well, from the same Man. The only differences are the Tailorings involved in their execution.

No...not quite. There are some fundamental differences.

If you want to learn to cook go to a chef. If you want to learn blades go with FMA's. Again, it's my opininion from my experiences.

If that's what works for you then excellent. I'm happy for you and wish you the best of luck in your training. Myself, I have experienced the FMAs and choose to be where I am.

:asian:

 

[kenpoworks]

Doc.....None of it is as simple as some would suggest in reality.

Reality: "all tha is real and not imagined or fantasy"(Oxford dic)... what we do Kenpo is real enough it physically happens in Studios and Dojo's around the clock and around the world, but its how it translates to an actual incident that is the reality test, thats why I tell anyone who trains with me "make all your mistakes in the Dojo"....because a real situation with or without weapons is unforgiving. W.R. Rich

 

[Hand Sword]

Which was exactly my point. What you've seen and all that is out there are two seperate things entirely.


No...not quite. There are some fundamental differences.


If that's what works for you then excellent. I'm happy for you and wish you the best of luck in your training. Myself, I have experienced the FMAs and choose to be where I am.

:asian:

:asian: