Weapon Techniques

[MJS]

You are thinking in a way that has crippled American Kenpo and that is that we are a "technique based system". Meaning if someone does this, you have to do this tecnique or that technique. If someone has a knife and attacks me this way the student is suppose to do raining lance, if the attack is this way, I am supposed to do thrusting lance... etc.

The techniques we learn are "NOT THE ANSWER". Mr. Parker designed the "techniques" as desquised repitition. The techniques are a PUZZLE teaching MANY thing, not that you are supposed to do them completely if someone attacks you in a certain way.

Yes, the techniques can possibly work step for step under the correct circumstances. Step for step the knife techniques are not the best to do in all situations but remember this- ALL of the EP techniques should be over in the first couple of moves. Take scrapping hoof for example. Do you think you are honsestly supposed to do the entire technique using both legs??

No, you practice both legs so you learn how to do the technique with both legs. Now take that principle and apply it to all of your techniques. Discect each technique. What are the legs and feet doing? Look at the foot work. Examine all of the stirkes envolved. What type of blocks, parries, checks are there? Examine the disarms. Is there an arm bar or arm break? Compare the arm break to other breaks in other techniques and see how they relate. Is there a take down? If so, how and why does it work? Compare it to other take downs or examine all the take downs in form 5.

That is another good point, form 5 our take down form. The entire form has take downs. Lets forget the techniques and look at all the various takedowns. Take downs from the front, from the back, from the side, pulling the bottom of the opponent out or the opposite taking the top of the opponent over. ALL of our techniques are like that, they are a puzzle to be taken appart and examined. Look at each piece to see what it is teaching you if you practice the technique.

Look at the knife techniques at each individual piece to see what it is teaching you, not that you have to do the technique step per step as taught. Disguised repetition. If you practice the technique as taught, your body is learning to move in certian ways instead of the constant line drills over and over again. Techniques are a way for you to practice.

No, we should not change the knife techniques as they are designed to teach us different principles. You can change your knife approach to how you would deal with a knife attack and use that in spontaneous drills if you apply the kenpo mechanics but over haul the techniques? No way! You would be taking out what GM Ed Parker was trying to teach you in that technique. Your job is to take the technique appart and find out what he was trying to teach you.

Yours in kenpo, Teej

Nice post! Two things relevent to this discussion, came up in other discussions that I've had with my instructors recently. First off, I'll start by saying that what you just said, is the same thing I say to people: "Use the techs. as a foundation to build off of."

Just this past Tuesday, I was going thru some techs. with my instructor. Of course, always keeping my on my toes, and making me think, he'll throw in little things, outside of the textbook way of doing the technique. During one move, where I was supposed to parry and grab the arm, controlling it, he pulled his hand back pretty quick (just like any Joe on the street would) so I wasn't able to maintain control. However, this didn't stop me from finishing the technique, as I just adapted to what he did and finished the move.

A few weeks ago, during a private Arnis lesson, my inst. and I were working on some of the basic disarms. One thing led to another and we were discussing actually being able to pull these off in a sparring type situation. Textbook, no, pretty hard to do. However, we went over some scenarios in which we found ourselves in a position to do them.

Point of that was...they are valid moves, just need to know where to apply them.

Mike

 

[Blindside]

I guess I'm not seeing the low percentage part of this move given the attack that it is for, a fully committed practically lunging stab(although I may be biased having been taught this move seperately in different systems..gotta have some merit if different systems and different people with different philosophies on combat agree on a common movement) .

Different attack, I try not to assume over-commitment on the part of my opponent.

Lamont

 

[Blindside]

Interestingly enough, I'm sure depending on who you said that to, you'd hear, "Well, if you have an attack for a round house/backhand club attack, theres your slashing kinfe defense!" I'm not disagreeing with you here, just giving the reply that I've got in the past.

Yes, I've gotten that reply in the past as well. I didn't buy it as a green belt, I don't buy it now.

Lamont

 

[teej]

Again, I can't stress enough that EP kenpo techniques are a puzzle, they are ideas to be studied, broken apart to find the lessons to be learned.

Are you forgetting these principles:

To any given base, whether it is a single move or a series of movements, you can:

1. Prefix it - add a move or moves before it,
2. Suffix it - add a move or moves after it,
3. Insert - add a simultaneous move with the already established sequence (this move can be used as a (a) pinning check - using pressure against an opponent's weapons to nullify their delivery, or (b) positioned check - where you place the hand or leg in a defensive position or angle to minimize entry to your vital areas
4. Re-arrange - change the sequence of the moves,
5. Alter the - (a) weapon, (b) target, or (c) both weapon and target,
6. Adjust the - (a) range, (b) angle of execution (which affects width and height), or (c) both angle of execution and range,
7. Regulate the - (a) speed, (b) force, (c) both speed and force, or (d) intent and speed,
8. Delete - exclude a move or moves from the sequence.

Don't like piercing lance for a knife you say? You wouldn't be the first or last to say this. Apply #5 and make the attack a thrusting club or punch.

"We don't address slashing knife attacks." Really? What if you looked at "returning storm" and made the attack a slashing knife attack? Of course you might want to apply #3 and insert a disarm or maybe add the extension from crossing talon?

These principles in and of themselves should tell the EP kenpo student that these "techniques" are not set in stone. They are learning models.

Go through ALL of your techniques and put a knife in the attackers hand. Which entries do you feel comfortable with, which ones don't you?

What about this for possibly teaching piercing lance if you are not comfortable with it. You teach the technique as taught for a knife. [nothing like a knife coming at you to get the student to move off the line.] Then run your practice session using it and after ask your class what they think of it. [make them think]

You come back explaining to your class that with your escrima background you would not apply this for a knife and explain why. Then tell your class, however; lets look at this again and make the attack a thrusting short club. Practice it some more and again ask for their thoughts.

You are not only with your thoughs concerning this topic. That is why I am suggesting you ask Huk Planas. It is not my place to post his thoughts, but I have attended plenty of his seminars and tested in front of him. He teaches escrima drills and he teaches the kenpo knife techniques and I have heard his comments/answers for your questions.

Again, techniques are a teaching model of ideas and principles not answers for attacks. In the "perfect ideal phase" all of the techniques can work as taught, but we are not in a perfect world. The streets are not the ideal phase safe classroom environment. That is why principles #1-8 above are supposed to be, in fact I'll go out on a limb here and say - "must be" taught and applied in out teachings. More spontaneous drills in class. I personally am a big proponent of less techniques and more class drills.

Yours in kenpo, Teej

 

[Blindside]

You are not only with your thoughs concerning this topic. That is why I am suggesting you ask Huk Planas. It is not my place to post his thoughts, but I have attended plenty of his seminars and tested in front of him. He teaches escrima drills and he teaches the kenpo knife techniques and I have heard his comments/answers for your questions.

Again, techniques are a teaching model of ideas and principles not answers for attacks. In the "perfect ideal phase" all of the techniques can work as taught, but we are not in a perfect world. The streets are not the ideal phase safe classroom environment. That is why principles #1-8 above are supposed to be, in fact I'll go out on a limb here and say - "must be" taught and applied in out teachings. More spontaneous drills in class. I personally am a big proponent of less techniques and more class drills.

I appreciate the suggestion of contact Mr. Planas. To be honest I don't really feel I need to, I have an effective weapon curricullum, it just doesn't come from kenpo. One that teaches that movement X is flipping moronic against this angle knife slash and why, so I suggest you do movement Y instead, 'course if they are good they are going to counter by doing movement Z, so you better save your *** by doing movement A.

Again, its a difference in teaching models, and I don't agree with the one that you are presenting as the AK commercial model.

Lamont

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Different attack, I try not to assume over-commitment on the part of my opponent.

Lamont

In actual combat yes assumption is the mother of all..... In learning however, all basic learning begins with an assumption or hypothesis. In martial arts of all forms (at least the many I've experienced) the basic attack is the assumption for the learning model. It's like trying to do an FMA counter to a #1 strike against a number #5 strike...not exactly the best idea. Same thing here. You want to work within the model of piercing lance? then use the right assumption. If you want to start with a different assumption then don't complain the movemove doesn't fit that different assumption. Gift of Destruction is not going to save you from a roundhouse club. An 'umpa' bridge is not going to help you counter a sweep. etc.

 

[teej]

I appreciate the suggestion of contact Mr. Planas. To be honest I don't really feel I need to, I have an effective weapon curricullum, it just doesn't come from kenpo. One that teaches that movement X is flipping moronic against this angle knife slash and why, so I suggest you do movement Y instead, 'course if they are good they are going to counter by doing movement Z, so you better save your *** by doing movement A.

Again, its a difference in teaching models, and I don't agree with the one that you are presenting as the AK commercial model.

Lamont

I appologize completely as I assumed your were an Ed Parker Kenpo black belt teaching the EP system. Thinking you were an EP kenpo instructor, I was trying to help you understand the thinking behind the commercial model teaching. I do not agree with all of it either, but I understand the reasoning.

If I wasn't a second generation EP black belt and studied another style, I most probably would have the exact same views as you do. Do not get me wrong as I do understand where your thinking is coming from and I am sure you are teaching effective material. But let me assure you that "taught correctly" the EP material is very effective. The key seems to be finding who can teach it correctly.

Again, I understand your points and again my apologies for my assumptions.

Yours in the arts, Teej

 

[Blindside]

I appologize completely as I assumed your were an Ed Parker Kenpo black belt teaching the EP system. Thinking you were an EP kenpo instructor, I was trying to help you understand the thinking behind the commercial model teaching. I do not agree with all of it either, but I understand the reasoning.

If I wasn't a second generation EP black belt and studied another style, I most probably would have the exact same views as you do. Do not get me wrong as I do understand where your thinking is coming from and I am sure you are teaching effective material. But let me assure you that "taught correctly" the EP material is very effective. The key seems to be finding who can teach it correctly.

Again, I understand your points and again my apologies for my assumptions.

Yours in the arts, Teej

No worries, I actually spent several years trying to get weapon material out of several kenpo lineages, and wasn't realy happy with what I got, I wound up in Pekiti, and that was like the holy grail. I haven't really felt a need to go back since.

Lamont

 

[Blindside]

In actual combat yes assumption is the mother of all..... In learning however, all basic learning begins with an assumption or hypothesis. In martial arts of all forms (at least the many I've experienced) the basic attack is the assumption for the learning model. It's like trying to do an FMA counter to a #1 strike against a number #5 strike...not exactly the best idea. Same thing here. You want to work within the model of piercing lance? then use the right assumption. If you want to start with a different assumption then don't complain the movemove doesn't fit that different assumption. Gift of Destruction is not going to save you from a roundhouse club. An 'umpa' bridge is not going to help you counter a sweep. etc.

I think I've learned Piercing Lance from three completely different AK lineages, only one of them suggested that the technique was only for a commited lunge, and that was more like "this works better when the guy commits." Which is sort of redundant, everything works better if the guy overcommits.

Lamont

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I think I've learned Piercing Lance from three completely different AK lineages, only one of them suggested that the technique was only for a commited lunge, and that was more like "this works better when the guy commits." Which is sort of redundant, everything works better if the guy overcommits.

Lamont

:rofl: All you can say to something like that is "Well Duh!!!" then ask "can you show me the defense that works best when the attacker doesn't commit?" Then stand, wait and watch the puzzled expression.

 

[nlkenpo]

1) The punch will never work...all you have to is parry
2) The shoot doesn't work...all you have to do is sprawl
3) The leg kick doesn't work..all you have to do is lift your shin
4) The rear naked choke doesn't work....all you have to do is tuck your chin
5) The armbar doesn't work....all you have to do is keep the elbows in
6) Piercing Lance doesn't work..all you have to do is....

See what I mean?

Great reply, kudo's to James !!!

I always tell my students to not concentrate on the 100 reasons a technique won't work or can be countered. Concentrate on the single reason it will work or the one thing you might learn from it.

 

[kenpostudent]

This discussion may be a little above my pay grade, but is there any defense in kenpo against the guy who tries to pick you off a piece at a time with knife jabs and slashes? What can you do against that kind of attack, period? If an opponent doesn't commit, what options do you have? You'll have to attack at an opportune moment or try to draw a commitment, right? Either way, you are likely to get cut...and maybe killed.

I have been taught that kenpo knife techniques are against a particular kind of knife as well as a particular type of attack: a thrust with a stiletto. A "Crocodile Dundee" knife is more akin to a small sword. If someone had a knife like that, why would they thrust with it? It would make more sense to slash than stab. If you have a switchblade, wouldn't you want to stab because the blade is thin and doesn't have much of an edge? That's how my instructor explained it to me. I may be way off base. Any thoughts?

 

[teej]

In the class room you are taught in the "ideal" phase. ie, the attacker is attacking with this foot forward and attacking with this arm in such a manner, etc. As a 3rd brown I am sure you are familiar with the 3 phases of combat that Ed Parker taught.

From learning a specific technique this way, your classroom drills have to move on to drills where you increase the distance between you and your opponent and the opponent moves around trying to attack. [kind of like sparring with a training knife. you are unarmed, the attacker has a knife.]

You have to use your foot work, blocks and parries and keep moving until the attacker does over commit. Stop thinking that every time the attacker pokes at you that you are supposed to disarm him.

Move!!! Keep moving!!! Try not to get cut or poked. When you do get touched with the training knife, "DO NOT STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND SAY, "OH YOU GOT ME"!!!! [boy do I hate that, teaching yourself to stop when the knife touches you may very well get you killed]

Keep moving. When your partner finally commits then try a disarming technique. If the attacker comes in and you parry somehow and are close to him, stick to him until you can do something. If you loose control of the situation, get distance between you. Push him, hit kick or punch, but get some distance and start movning around again until the next commited attack.

After you successfully disarm your attacker, then and only then, go back and examine any mistakes you made. Does kenpo have anything for someone trying to pick you off piece at a time?? Yes it is called "footwork" and phase 3 of your training, "spontaneous drill training".

Hope this helped, Teej