Kenpo Blade Work

[jazkiljok]

raining lance..

having gone thru this topic- i was wondering (Doc in particular) if folks would like to comment on this methodology for handling what Doc said was perhaps the most realistic of attack scenarios.



1. As the 9:00 attacker comes in with an overhead knife attack, step to 1:30 with your right foot and turn counter clockwise into a left neutral bow as you extend your right down out and down. Do a left downward block (scraping down your right arm) to guide the knife past you and into attackers groin.
2. With your left arm checking at solar plexus level, push drag forward into attacker while doing a right inward elbow to attackers chest.
3. While turning into a reverse bow, switch hands, checking low with your right hand while your left does an inverted claw (palm up) to attackers throat.
4. Switch hands again, checking low with your left hand while doing a right inward hand sword to attackers nose, into a right heel plam claw to attackers face

 

[Doc]

raining lance..

having gone thru this topic- i was wondering (Doc in particular) if folks would like to comment on this methodology for handling what Doc said was perhaps the most realistic of attack scenarios.



1. As the 9:00 attacker comes in with an overhead knife attack, step to 1:30 with your right foot and turn counter clockwise into a left neutral bow as you extend your right down out and down. Do a left downward block (scraping down your right arm) to guide the knife past you and into attackers groin.
2. With your left arm checking at solar plexus level, push drag forward into attacker while doing a right inward elbow to attackers chest.
3. While turning into a reverse bow, switch hands, checking low with your right hand while your left does an inverted claw (palm up) to attackers throat.
4. Switch hands again, checking low with your left hand while doing a right inward hand sword to attackers nose, into a right heel plam claw to attackers face

You're punctured and bleeding.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Ummm...don't do this. I'm not sure if I'm reading your writing correctly, but I suspect trying this, as written, will provide your opponent ample opportunity to harm you with the sharp edge of his weapon. If the guys mad and animated, you're in trouble.

Regards,

D.

 

[jazkiljok]

these are a few more i pulled from misc. websites --- Doc, any change in results using these descriptions?

Set IX: Raining Lance (Right overhead knife attack from 9:00)
a. Pull the left foot back to 6:00, and pivot into a cat facing 9:00, and then step with the left foot to 9:00 into a left neutral bow as the left hand does an overhead downward parry (mirroring Thrusting Lance) to touch the right bicep. ?b. Slide to 9:00 with a left chop\push. ?c. Shuffle to 9:00 with a right inward horizontal elbow to the face. ?d. Pivot clockwise into a right reverse bow facing 1:30 as the right hand checks and the left hand does an inverted crab hand to the throat and the left knee checks. As the left hand checks, pivot counter-clockwise into a left forward bow facing 9:00 as the right hand circles outward, upward, and then downward into a right chop which becomes a rolling claw.

Set 9: Raining Lance (Flank: Right Overhead Knife)
1. An attacker at 9 o'clock comes at you with a right overhead knife.
2. From your left neutral bow facing 12 o'clock and within the flow of motion from your backfist, step your left foot to 9 o'clock into a left neutral bow facing 9 o'clock as you execute a left inward parry to the outside of your attacker's right arm.
3. With the overhead attack still in motion, pivot clockwise into a horse stance facing 12 o'clock as your right hand assists your left into guiding your attacker's knife hand. Without losing momentum, pivot into a left neutral bow as you stab the knife into your attacker's right thigh.
4. Pivot into a left forward bow facing 9 o'clock as you execute a right inward elbow to your attacker's sternum to hold them vertical while your left hand continues to pin your attacker's right hand to their wounded thigh.
5. Pivot into a left neutral bow as your left hand tracks up your attacker's right arm into a palm up tiger's mouth strike to your attacker's throat. Simultaneous with this action, your right hand will switch and continue to press down on the knife in your attacker's thigh as well as check off their right hand.
6. Switch hands again, this time your left forearm pressing your attacker's thigh as your left hand grabs and squeezes your attacker's testicles. Simultaneously your right will circle counterclockwise and be palm up at your right shoulder. Execute a right tiger's mouth, using the forefinger and thumb to squeeze your attacker's eyes.

RAINING LANCE
Defense against an overhead knife attack
Step to 10:30 with your left foot into a left Neutral Bow while doing a left inward parry to guide attackers knife arm down past your left arm and into attackers thigh or groin.

Push Drag into attacker (if necessary) while doing a right Inward Elbow to attackers chest.

Switch hands, pinning attackers right arm down with your right hand while your left hand grabs (palm up) attackers throat.

Switch hands again, pinning attackers right arm down with your left hand while doing a right Inward Hand Sword to attackers nose, into a right Heel Plam Claw to attackers face.

As you move into a right High Wide Kneel (or down onto your left knee), slide your left hand up attackers chest, grab their neck or chin and anchor your elbow down, pulling attacker backwards. At the same time, circle your right hand from attackers face into a Back Knuckle to attackers kidney. As attacker lands on your right thigh, finish the circle with your right hand by doing a right overhead Hammerfist to attackers chest.

Push attacker off your knee and do a right Side Kick to attackers face.

 

[Doc]

these are a few more i pulled from misc. websites --- Doc, any change in results using these descriptions?

Set IX: Raining Lance (Right overhead knife attack from 9:00)
a. Pull the left foot back to 6:00, and pivot into a cat facing 9:00, and then step with the left foot to 9:00 into a left neutral bow as the left hand does an overhead downward parry (mirroring Thrusting Lance) to touch the right bicep. ?b. Slide to 9:00 with a left chop\push. ?c. Shuffle to 9:00 with a right inward horizontal elbow to the face. ?d. Pivot clockwise into a right reverse bow facing 1:30 as the right hand checks and the left hand does an inverted crab hand to the throat and the left knee checks. As the left hand checks, pivot counter-clockwise into a left forward bow facing 9:00 as the right hand circles outward, upward, and then downward into a right chop which becomes a rolling claw.

Set 9: Raining Lance (Flank: Right Overhead Knife)
1. An attacker at 9 o'clock comes at you with a right overhead knife.
2. From your left neutral bow facing 12 o'clock and within the flow of motion from your backfist, step your left foot to 9 o'clock into a left neutral bow facing 9 o'clock as you execute a left inward parry to the outside of your attacker's right arm.
3. With the overhead attack still in motion, pivot clockwise into a horse stance facing 12 o'clock as your right hand assists your left into guiding your attacker's knife hand. Without losing momentum, pivot into a left neutral bow as you stab the knife into your attacker's right thigh.
4. Pivot into a left forward bow facing 9 o'clock as you execute a right inward elbow to your attacker's sternum to hold them vertical while your left hand continues to pin your attacker's right hand to their wounded thigh.
5. Pivot into a left neutral bow as your left hand tracks up your attacker's right arm into a palm up tiger's mouth strike to your attacker's throat. Simultaneous with this action, your right hand will switch and continue to press down on the knife in your attacker's thigh as well as check off their right hand.
6. Switch hands again, this time your left forearm pressing your attacker's thigh as your left hand grabs and squeezes your attacker's testicles. Simultaneously your right will circle counterclockwise and be palm up at your right shoulder. Execute a right tiger's mouth, using the forefinger and thumb to squeeze your attacker's eyes.

RAINING LANCE
Defense against an overhead knife attack
Step to 10:30 with your left foot into a left Neutral Bow while doing a left inward parry to guide attackers knife arm down past your left arm and into attackers thigh or groin.

Push Drag into attacker (if necessary) while doing a right Inward Elbow to attackers chest.

Switch hands, pinning attackers right arm down with your right hand while your left hand grabs (palm up) attackers throat.

Switch hands again, pinning attackers right arm down with your left hand while doing a right Inward Hand Sword to attackers nose, into a right Heel Plam Claw to attackers face.

As you move into a right High Wide Kneel (or down onto your left knee), slide your left hand up attackers chest, grab their neck or chin and anchor your elbow down, pulling attacker backwards. At the same time, circle your right hand from attackers face into a Back Knuckle to attackers kidney. As attacker lands on your right thigh, finish the circle with your right hand by doing a right overhead Hammerfist to attackers chest.

Push attacker off your knee and do a right Side Kick to attackers face.

E) None of the above.

 

[JenniM]

Interesting thread - however I feel that most martial knife-defense techniques have critical, and likely fatal, deficiencies. Many Instructors demonstrate techniques that appear to be effective, however, it is important to distinguish between what is achievable in pre-arranged demonstrations, and what is the nature of "chaos" in a real life encounter. We practice and demonstrate defenses against a single over-extended non-retracted strike in which the attacker (never using his free hand) then complies with the attempts of the defender. Combination random attacks are rarely addressed. This is not a criticism of the Kenpo techniques being discussed here but blade work is just not our specialty. I have studied some blade work outside of the Kenpo realm and man did it open my eyes to the "mentality" of training with blades, I've trained in Kenpo for 25 years now and it certainly made me re-evaluate our knife techniques so I guess what I'm trying to say is don't get too bogged down with discussing specific knife techniques, if you're really interested and want the experience, go find a professional knife fighter and train with him/her - you'll never look at bladework the same again! To quote Leo Gaje "I respect you and I respect your art, but my blade does not".:asian:

 

[Doc]

Interesting thread - however I feel that most martial knife-defense techniques have critical, and likely fatal, deficiencies. Many Instructors demonstrate techniques that appear to be effective, however, it is important to distinguish between what is achievable in pre-arranged demonstrations, and what is the nature of "chaos" in a real life encounter. We practice and demonstrate defenses against a single over-extended non-retracted strike in which the attacker (never using his free hand) then complies with the attempts of the defender. Combination random attacks are rarely addressed. This is not a criticism of the Kenpo techniques being discussed here but blade work is just not our specialty. I have studied some blade work outside of the Kenpo realm and man did it open my eyes to the "mentality" of training with blades, I've trained in Kenpo for 25 years now and it certainly made me re-evaluate our knife techniques so I guess what I'm trying to say is don't get too bogged down with discussing specific knife techniques, if you're really interested and want the experience, go find a professional knife fighter and train with him/her - you'll never look at bladework the same again! To quote Leo Gaje "I respect you and I respect your art, but my blade does not".:asian:

Her Majesty has spoken! Good advice. Take it.

 

[MJS]

Interesting thread - however I feel that most martial knife-defense techniques have critical, and likely fatal, deficiencies. Many Instructors demonstrate techniques that appear to be effective, however, it is important to distinguish between what is achievable in pre-arranged demonstrations, and what is the nature of "chaos" in a real life encounter. We practice and demonstrate defenses against a single over-extended non-retracted strike in which the attacker (never using his free hand) then complies with the attempts of the defender. Combination random attacks are rarely addressed. This is not a criticism of the Kenpo techniques being discussed here but blade work is just not our specialty. I have studied some blade work outside of the Kenpo realm and man did it open my eyes to the "mentality" of training with blades, I've trained in Kenpo for 25 years now and it certainly made me re-evaluate our knife techniques so I guess what I'm trying to say is don't get too bogged down with discussing specific knife techniques, if you're really interested and want the experience, go find a professional knife fighter and train with him/her - you'll never look at bladework the same again! To quote Leo Gaje "I respect you and I respect your art, but my blade does not".:asian:

Well said and I agree! This was one of the reasons why I started this thread..to break down the various knife defenses, talking about other options that the attacker has, other than just trying to hit us with the blade, such as the other hand, as you mentioned.

I've heard two methods of thinking, when talking to different people. One group who states that the majority of folks that attack us, probably won't be a trained person. The other group who states that we won't know the skill level of the person attacking us, so therefore, why not train for the worst scenario. Personally, I tend to lean more towards the second group.

Mike

 

[JenniM]

Well said and I agree! This was one of the reasons why I started this thread..to break down the various knife defenses, talking about other options that the attacker has, other than just trying to hit us with the blade, such as the other hand, as you mentioned.

I've heard two methods of thinking, when talking to different people. One group who states that the majority of folks that attack us, probably won't be a trained person. The other group who states that we won't know the skill level of the person attacking us, so therefore, why not train for the worst scenario. Personally, I tend to lean more towards the second group.

Mike

Good plan!! The best chance you have to be able to deal with an knife-weilding attacker is to become the attacker and study the mentality and methods of knife fighting - then I believe you will be able to identify very quickly the skill level (or not!) of your assailant and know what you are dealing with. The thing is that blades are so easily concealed and practical to carry at all times, it is legal if chosen accordingly, you can carry several knives with ease and they are easy to obtain. They have to be a consideration when dealing with a potential assailant, and you have to be totally switched on . Put yourself in the position of predator for a day and identify all those around you in your everyday life who you would class as a potential "Victim" - this is a very interesting exercise to do and certainly brings home the number of people out there on the streets who are potential "Victims" to anyone in predatory mode - add a blade to the scenario and the ease with which you could just walk past someone, slice them and disappear into the crowd.....scary stuff!! Here in the UK we have a lot of knife crimes, sadly it appears they are on the increase and from reports it appears they range from single stab wounds either in pub brawls or muggings on the street to frenzied attacks from psychologically disturbed persons. Anyway I'm rambling on.....lol!! I wish you luck and success with your bladework!!!! :asian:

 

[JenniM]

Her Majesty has spoken! Good advice. Take it.

:wavey: x x

 

[Doc]

I've heard two methods of thinking, when talking to different people. One group who states that the majority of folks that attack us, probably won't be a trained person. The other group who states that we won't know the skill level of the person attacking us, so therefore, why not train for the worst scenario. Personally, I tend to lean more towards the second group.
Mike

Well I, and even Mr. Parker had a much different perspective. He did extensive research and training with professional law enforcement personnel, and I as well using my own personal experience as a base.

According to Ed Parker Sr. "... the trained knife fighter scenario is strickly a fantasy..." concocted to justify what initially was not even a part of the self defense philosophy of Ed Parker's Kenpo-Karate. Knives were introduced as a weapon form strickly for tournament competition because students demanded it. In the original system, (commercial motion or otherwise) there was not one knife scenario presented as a technique. Guns and clubs, yes, knives no. Skilled Knife fighters do not square off because there are no winners, and they know this. Therefore the overwhelming majority of knife assaults are unskilled downward plunging. All other knife assaults are defensive slashing.

In this country, if you encounter a 'skilled knife fighter,' he is propbably assuming the role of assasin and he will attack you surreptitiously and you will never see in coming. More than likely he will attack you from behind, immobilize you with one hand and bury the blade with the other.

In thirty years of confrontation with wanted criminal and street people, I've only had a knife drawn on me once. I venture to say I've had a lot more confrontations then anyone who doesn't do law enforcement for a living.

Instead of entertaining fantasies of ninja jumping out of trees with bladed weapons as you come out of the Circle K/Seven Eleven, perhaps we should all get the same understanding of just how we're supoosed to make that dam neutral bow stable. This my small rant, directed at no one in particular.

Just a thought, but what the hell do I know.

 

[JenniM]

Skilled Knife fighters do not square off because there are no winners, and they know this. Therefore the overwhelming majority of knife assaults are unskilled downward plunging. All other knife assaults are defensive slashing.

In this country, if you encounter a 'skilled knife fighter,' he is propbably assuming the role of assasin and he will attack you surreptitiously and you will never see in coming. More than likely he will attack you from behind, immobilize you with one hand and bury the blade with the other.

I agree with regard to the Skilled Knife Fighters and I can only speak for here in the UK that the majority of knife assaults are unskilled by mindless thugs! The execution of their strikes I cannot comment on.

Unfortunately the news headlining today here in the UK is in relation to an off-duty policewoman who was viciously knifed when she ventured out into the street outside of her home to investigate a disburbance, she tragically died in her husband's arms - the post-mortem revealed that she had died from a stab wound to the top of her left groin, hitting the femoral artery - another senseless attack here in the UK, a spokesperson from the Police Campaign Group "Protect" said "Knife crime is clearly out of control on the streets of Britain - the sooner the Government and the judiciary wake up to this, the better for us all" - Sad news but one that is unfortunately for us in the UK on the increase and one that I fear this poor lady could have done little about!- :asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

Not just the UK, in the Netherlands two box cutters with a coin taped between them with duct or electrical tape, is the gang banger weapon of choice. You get a cut to the face that cannot be sutured together without leaving a serious scar (the two parallel cuts several millimeters apart.)

My only knife fight, the attack was a slashing thrust, I used the back of my hand and did get a cut on the retraction. It only took 3 stitches between my fingers, but boy it pissed me off, and I would have had plenty of time to maim, injure, or kill him had my skill set and age not been what they were. I got the disarm but was bleeding like a stuck pig.

You can train to learn to use the knife, but do not be under the illusion that learning that is the best way of learning knife defense. It gives you a good perspective, but you are only honing your own skills unless you practice empty hand against, knife. I have lots of friends that do Petit-Tirsa or Serrak. They think they have good hands, but the Kenpo black belt who gets his guru under Gage or another real knife fighter uses his Kenpo to do the empty hand self-defense. It is really neat to watch someone who has both and see what has evolved from the techniques we do have. None of the techniques survived as written, but many principles and concepts are the same. Understanding reverse and returning motion, point of origin, contouring, supressing checks, closing the gap or staying out of range, zones of sanctuary, etc., are all part of a skilled practitioner's knife defense ... regardless of art.

OK, I am off my soapbox.

-Michael

 

[MJS]

Well I, and even Mr. Parker had a much different perspective. He did extensive research and training with professional law enforcement personnel, and I as well using my own personal experience as a base.

According to Ed Parker Sr. "... the trained knife fighter scenario is strickly a fantasy..." concocted to justify what initially was not even a part of the self defense philosophy of Ed Parker's Kenpo-Karate. Knives were introduced as a weapon form strickly for tournament competition because students demanded it. In the original system, (commercial motion or otherwise) there was not one knife scenario presented as a technique. Guns and clubs, yes, knives no. Skilled Knife fighters do not square off because there are no winners, and they know this. Therefore the overwhelming majority of knife assaults are unskilled downward plunging. All other knife assaults are defensive slashing.

In this country, if you encounter a 'skilled knife fighter,' he is propbably assuming the role of assasin and he will attack you surreptitiously and you will never see in coming. More than likely he will attack you from behind, immobilize you with one hand and bury the blade with the other.

In thirty years of confrontation with wanted criminal and street people, I've only had a knife drawn on me once. I venture to say I've had a lot more confrontations then anyone who doesn't do law enforcement for a living.

Instead of entertaining fantasies of ninja jumping out of trees with bladed weapons as you come out of the Circle K/Seven Eleven, perhaps we should all get the same understanding of just how we're supoosed to make that dam neutral bow stable. This my small rant, directed at no one in particular.

Just a thought, but what the hell do I know.

Thanks for the reply Doc. I guess I'm just looking at it from the perspective of not assuming anything. You're right, chances are, the person we're facing, be it empty hand or weapon, may not be a pro-boxer, MMA cage fighter or Filipino master. However, just like a new student in a MA class, those are the ones that I'm a bit more cautious with, compared to a Black Belt or upper ranked student, who has more control. The untrained ones have the tendancy to be a bit more unpredictable.

 

[jazkiljok]

E) None of the above.

oddly, doesn't seem to be anyone here to disagree.

thank you for the response.

 

[Doc]

I agree with regard to the Skilled Knife Fighters and I can only speak for here in the UK that the majority of knife assaults are unskilled by mindless thugs! The execution of their strikes I cannot comment on.

Unfortunately the news headlining today here in the UK is in relation to an off-duty policewoman who was viciously knifed when she ventured out into the street outside of her home to investigate a disburbance, she tragically died in her husband's arms - the post-mortem revealed that she had died from a stab wound to the top of her left groin, hitting the femoral artery - another senseless attack here in the UK, a spokesperson from the Police Campaign Group "Protect" said "Knife crime is clearly out of control on the streets of Britain - the sooner the Government and the judiciary wake up to this, the better for us all" - Sad news but one that is unfortunately for us in the UK on the increase and one that I fear this poor lady could have done little about!- :asian:

Doesn't matter what you do, bad people will find something to do bad things with. Guns, knives, box cutters, ice picks, or a broken beer bottle. We had a homicide once where a woman was beat to death with a coke bottle, and it never broke.

 

[Seig]

As a Kenpo instructor, I find myself having to defend myself against media hype (more than anything else and certainly more times than Ihave been attacked physically) about the newest, latest, greatest thing. I now have a standard defense, "Oh yeah, let's see it."
I'm still teaching Kenpo.