Kenpo Blade Work

[MJS]

Out of interest has anybody investigated the 'Kenpo Counterpoint' series developed by Mr Zach Whitson? He has a second DVD available which details a series of 'knife flow drills'. The drills are a two-man set/form and combine all of the kenpo knife techniques (glancing/raining/piercing etc) into one continuously flowing form.

The counterpoint drills are a very interesting take on the knife techniques and include Pekiti-Tirsia Kali concepts+tactics within the form. I thought it was seriously cool when watching the DVD as have others I've shown it to..

this is the site (although I bought mine from the kenponet-mall):
http://www.kenpocounterpoint.com/Store.html


James

Havent seen the DVD in question. Perhaps you could give us some feedback on what he has done with the knife techniques.

Mike

 

[bujuts]

This is a good topic, I've enjoyed reading all the posts. I won't spend any time on the notion of "run first", because, well, that should be obvious to any martial artist with half a brain. Granted, that assumes running is an option. Similarly, its extremely rare (as was stated by others) that civilians will get into a knife scrap, and still very rare for military and law enforcement, save for perhaps very surgical military manuevers requiring stealth and hand to hand - still, primarily a thing for the movies.

With all that aside, I would have to submit a respectful disagreement with some of your posts:

If you have to fight/defend...use shoes,belt,jacket or anything around you for a weapon to fight back with! Grab something...anything~!

Always have your outer arms facing out with palms facing you! It the knife attacker tries to cut you, he will not cut the veins.

Why compromise your kenpo training and your alignment based on your fear of getting cut? If someone is trying to kill you (not play with you), the position of your forearms will matter little. Your mind should be in kill mode, not in fear for your life mode and take actions unnatural to your training for the sake of "what if this" or "what if that".

and always use TWO HANDS to hold on to the knife hand and use the rest of your body to strike with! If you can grab and hold on!

IMHO, this is weapon fixation. You get clocked in the head by his free hand, then he makes a cut as you reel. Deal with the initial attack, dominate his space and eliminate his ability to continue attacking, and destroy. Isn't that kenpo in a nutshell?

don;t be fool with your everyday techiques in class....in the real world things will happen FAST, the adrenline,fear factor,heart pumping, the darkness...so on...

100% agreed. Many knife training sessions are wrought with unrealistic lack of violence and multiple, quick repetitive attacks (the classic prison shank comes to mind - how many times can a person stab in 1 second? Alot). The way I see it, anyone coming at me with a knife is 1) likely crazed, 2) quite strong, 3) has done this before, 4) fast, and 5) all of the above. It goes without saying what our arednaline dump will be, to boot.

IN class NO one trains against a real attacter and a real blade! and every knife fighter will be different, some more experience,some slashers, and so on...

Again, agreed. Our study should be principle based and focused on dealing with the initial attack. Many many martial artists do all sort of sepctacular manuevers against unrealistic attacks, working to bump up their after-control performance than how to deal with the initial onset of the violence.

These are my thoughts..........never been in a real knife attack....so I could be wrong here............Aloha

Nor I, nor do I ever want to be. I've learned enough about the knife from the real deal to know I don't know crap about the knife. Unless there is absolutely no choice, I will run w/out hesitation.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF

 

[Doc]

This is a good topic, I've enjoyed reading all the posts. I won't spend any time on the notion of "run first", because, well, that should be obvious to any martial artist with half a brain. Granted, that assumes running is an option. Similarly, its extremely rare (as was stated by others) that civilians will get into a knife scrap, and still very rare for military and law enforcement, save for perhaps very surgical military manuevers requiring stealth and hand to hand - still, primarily a thing for the movies.

With all that aside, I would have to submit a respectful disagreement with some of your posts:



Why compromise your kenpo training and your alignment based on your fear of getting cut? If someone is trying to kill you (not play with you), the position of your forearms will matter little. Your mind should be in kill mode, not in fear for your life mode and take actions unnatural to your training for the sake of "what if this" or "what if that".



IMHO, this is weapon fixation. You get clocked in the head by his free hand, then he makes a cut as you reel. Deal with the initial attack, dominate his space and eliminate his ability to continue attacking, and destroy. Isn't that kenpo in a nutshell?



100% agreed. Many knife training sessions are wrought with unrealistic lack of violence and multiple, quick repetitive attacks (the classic prison shank comes to mind - how many times can a person stab in 1 second? Alot). The way I see it, anyone coming at me with a knife is 1) likely crazed, 2) quite strong, 3) has done this before, 4) fast, and 5) all of the above. It goes without saying what our arednaline dump will be, to boot.



Again, agreed. Our study should be principle based and focused on dealing with the initial attack. Many many martial artists do all sort of sepctacular manuevers against unrealistic attacks, working to bump up their after-control performance than how to deal with the initial onset of the violence.



Nor I, nor do I ever want to be. I've learned enough about the knife from the real deal to know I don't know crap about the knife. Unless there is absolutely no choice, I will run w/out hesitation.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF

Really good thoughts Mr. Brown.

 

[bujuts]

My thanks. I really think this the whole notion of dealing with the first attack is critical. When training empty hand against the knife, I practice more dealing with the first motion than anything else. Once I'm in his space and have established control over the knife, the rest is easy. Its getting there that's the hard part.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF

 

[MJS]

My thanks. I really think this the whole notion of dealing with the first attack is critical. When training empty hand against the knife, I practice more dealing with the first motion than anything else. Once I'm in his space and have established control over the knife, the rest is easy. Its getting there that's the hard part.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF

Thanks for your feedback! I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the techniques that I've listed for discussion.

Mike

 

[bujuts]

Thanks for your feedback! I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the techniques that I've listed for discussion.
Mike

Using Glancing Lance:

1. An attacker at 12 o'clock comes at you with a right shuffling knife thrust.

2. Step your right foot to 7:30 into a left neutral bow as you get out of the line of attacker. Execute a right outward hand sword to the outside of your attacker's right wrist. Immediately after you strike the right wrist, seize the wrist and execute a left palm strike to the outside of your attacker's right elbow.

The classical version of this technique has always been a little sketchy to me. It sounds about as easy as catching a boxer's jab. When I envision a thrusting knife attack, I see it as something close to his body, not extended, the elbows bent and achored, and him literally running into me as he makes a pin cushion out of my intestines. There is not just one thrust - its repeated again and again, and quickly. The fact that the attack is a shuffle and not a step through suggests he's already closer than he should be anyway.

3. Execute a right front kick to your attacker's groin. (When kicking, maintain control of your attacker's right hand so as they do pull back and slice you up.)

Like most strikes to the groin, I personally do not see it as a strike to the groin. I see it as a forceful displacement of the hips by kicking into the pelvic gurdle. If he has genitals in the way that's his problem. My objective here is to affect height.

4. As you land forward into a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock, have your right leg buckle and check the inside of your attacker's right leg while you execute a right two-finger inward hook to your attacker's eyes. (Your left hand should be maintaining the check on your attacker's right arm.)

I personally like the use of a downward bracing angle check with my left forearm, literally pressing the offending arm into him. I don't use a lot of open hand in this sort of thing, as it requires more accuracy than I'll probably have given the adrenaline dump, speed, and anxiety that's at hand at the time. Gross motions with proper alignment. Does that make sense?

5. Hop your left foot to 9 o'clock into a one-leg stance as you execute a right outward downward parry to the outside of your attacker's right elbow. As you parry, execute a right palm strike to your attacker's right shoulder.

I personally feel "hopping" is insane. Step. Stay engaged at all times. If the attack was truly aggressive, you're dealing with his entire mass. After that powerful boot through the groin to the pelvis, he may buckle down and crash into you if your "checking palm" is inadequate to control his depth, and if your eye hook missed, leaving you nothing to control height with. Not to mention, if you're eye hook DID work right, then you've got a human eyeball in your palm, and now his mind is now in a co-contracting frenzy. Control of the dimensions is now critical; there's no telling what he'll do. When we work Leaping Crane, we don't "leap" at all. We step to about 10:30, then invade in towards 1:30 or so, never coming to that dangerous state called "balance".

6. Execute a right knife edge kick to the outside of your attacker's right knee.

7. Land into a right neutral bow between your attacker's legs as you simultaneously finish the loop of the downward parry and execute a right inward palm claw to your attacker's face. (Your left hand will slide from his shoulder to his arm to check it.)

8. Anchor your right elbow using it and your forearm to check down your attacker's back and arm; all the while your right hand wrenching back on their neck and face.

9. Execute a left middle-knuckle strike to the back of your attacker's head.

10. Move your left hand to check on your attacker's shoulder as you execute a right inward elbow to the side of your attacker's head.

If this was truly a killing scenario (i.e. one requiring a kill), which in my mind it is, this would likely end like similar to leaping crane. The elbows anchored in no. 8 to control the torso, you should have the levarage and positioning to break the neck. There's no way I can describe that one by writing, the positioning must be very specific. If it didn't need to be taken to the kill, this is a great spot for the Jamdown (another difficult one to describe).

One last thing on the subject of killing. This is a point of fantasy for many, I believe, and I contend too few "knife practitioners" take the time to maturely contemplate the implications of a bladed scenario. I will first disclaim that I have never done such a thing, and pray I never have to. But all ethical and moral discussions aside, the human body is very tough and there are very few ways to bring about a quick kill. Something my teacher mentioned to me once that stuck with me: nothing is more dangerous than a human in the throngs of death. You remove an eyeball, you cut someone for the sake of cutting (i.e. "defanging the snake"), you are putting someone in that state of being, the desperate state of co-contraction. All cards are now on the table, and its not a weekend bar scrap anymore. It may be that their intent wasn't so much to kill you as to just give you a quick stick in the belly so they can grab your wallet and leave you in a fetal position for a likely rescue. Now its different, now they want you 100% D-E-A-D, and if they think they're dying, that is pretty much all they're set on doing. ANY failure to control the weapon nd their body could result in you dying too. Sketchy stuff, this knife business.

Any input is welcome, thanks for the discussion.

Steven Brown
UKF

 

[Doc]

Using Glancing Lance:



The classical version of this technique has always been a little sketchy to me. It sounds about as easy as catching a boxer's jab. When I envision a thrusting knife attack, I see it as something close to his body, not extended, the elbows bent and achored, and him literally running into me as he makes a pin cushion out of my intestines. There is not just one thrust - its repeated again and again, and quickly. The fact that the attack is a shuffle and not a step through suggests he's already closer than he should be anyway.



Like most strikes to the groin, I personally do not see it as a strike to the groin. I see it as a forceful displacement of the hips by kicking into the pelvic gurdle. If he has genitals in the way that's his problem. My objective here is to affect height.



I personally like the use of a downward bracing angle check with my left forearm, literally pressing the offending arm into him. I don't use a lot of open hand in this sort of thing, as it requires more accuracy than I'll probably have given the adrenaline dump, speed, and anxiety that's at hand at the time. Gross motions with proper alignment. Does that make sense?



I personally feel "hopping" is insane. Step. Stay engaged at all times. If the attack was truly aggressive, you're dealing with his entire mass. After that powerful boot through the groin to the pelvis, he may buckle down and crash into you if your "checking palm" is inadequate to control his depth, and if your eye hook missed, leaving you nothing to control height with. Not to mention, if you're eye hook DID work right, then you've got a human eyeball in your palm, and now his mind is now in a co-contracting frenzy. Control of the dimensions is now critical; there's no telling what he'll do. When we work Leaping Crane, we don't "leap" at all. We step to about 10:30, then invade in towards 1:30 or so, never coming to that dangerous state called "balance".



If this was truly a killing scenario (i.e. one requiring a kill), which in my mind it is, this would likely end like similar to leaping crane. The elbows anchored in no. 8 to control the torso, you should have the levarage and positioning to break the neck. There's no way I can describe that one by writing, the positioning must be very specific. If it didn't need to be taken to the kill, this is a great spot for the Jamdown (another difficult one to describe).

One last thing on the subject of killing. This is a point of fantasy for many, I believe, and I contend too few "knife practitioners" take the time to maturely contemplate the implications of a bladed scenario. I will first disclaim that I have never done such a thing, and pray I never have to. But all ethical and moral discussions aside, the human body is very tough and there are very few ways to bring about a quick kill. Something my teacher mentioned to me once that stuck with me: nothing is more dangerous than a human in the throngs of death. You remove an eyeball, you cut someone for the sake of cutting (i.e. "defanging the snake"), you are putting someone in that state of being, the desperate state of co-contraction. All cards are now on the table, and its not a weekend bar scrap anymore. It may be that their intent wasn't so much to kill you as to just give you a quick stick in the belly so they can grab your wallet and leave you in a fetal position for a likely rescue. Now its different, now they want you 100% D-E-A-D, and if they think they're dying, that is pretty much all they're set on doing. ANY failure to control the weapon nd their body could result in you dying too. Sketchy stuff, this knife business.

Any input is welcome, thanks for the discussion.

Steven Brown
UKF

Man, you're good.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Man, you're good.

Dang, Doc. This guy one of yours?

D.

 

[Doc]

Dang, Doc. This guy one of yours?

D.

Nope, but he sures make sense. There are a lot of smart guys out there. That's how I met you, remember?

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

For those of you who were asking about Mr Whitson's Counterpoint DVD: I like the DVD's but I am bias because I travel up to TN about every other month to train in Kenpo, Kali (Pekiti Tirsia) and Counterpoint along with a fellow kenpo brother. His Counterpoint knife flow drills take in consideration that your opponet is a trained knife fighter and knows how to counter. I would recommend them to anyone however, it is just the tip of the iceburg and I would try to catch him at a seminar sometime.

 

[Blindside]

For those of you who were asking about Mr Whitson's Counterpoint DVD: I like the DVD's but I am bias because I travel up to TN about every other month to train in Kenpo, Kali (Pekiti Tirsia) and Counterpoint along with a fellow kenpo brother. His Counterpoint knife flow drills take in consideration that your opponet is a trained knife fighter and knows how to counter. I would recommend them to anyone however, it is just the tip of the iceburg and I would try to catch him at a seminar sometime.

How do the knife defenses from the kenpo counterpoint drills differ from the unarmed Pekiti kali defenses? What alterations to the base kenpo techniques have been made to take into account dealing with a "trained knife fighter"?

I've been interested in Mr. Whitson's knife counterpoint (I really liked the original counterpoint release) but I figured I wouldn't get that much out of it since I already train in PTK. Would that be incorrect?

Thanks,

Lamont

Lamont

 

[JamesB]

Havent seen the DVD in question. Perhaps you could give us some feedback on what he has done with the knife techniques.

Sorry for not responding sooner, I've been trying to find a spare moment to sit down and watch the DVD again so I can write something about it.....review of the DVD further down...

How do the knife defenses from the kenpo counterpoint drills differ from the unarmed Pekiti kali defenses? What alterations to the base kenpo techniques have been made to take into account dealing with a "trained knife fighter"?

I've been interested in Mr. Whitson's knife counterpoint (I really liked the original counterpoint release) but I figured I wouldn't get that much out of it since I already train in PTK. Would that be incorrect?

I have no exposure to PTK so I can't really address this very well, but I think if you enjoyed the first Counterpoint release you will definitely like the knife-counterpoint. I'll do my best to give an outline of what the DVD presents but bear in mind I'm not an expert and have spent very little time actually working the counterpoint drills.

Mr Whitson has taken the six kenpo-karate knife-techniques (Clipping-the-Lance, Glancing Lance, Thrusting Lance, Entwined Lance, Raining Lance, Piercing Lance), and (from a kenpo viewpoint) turned them into a two-man form.

​

The DVD itself is very well presented. The picture quality and audio is very good for this type of project - of course it is nowhere near that of a movie, but compared to other kenpo tapes/DVDs this one seems to me to be much better in terms of quality. The DVD is broken into chapters, and each knife technique has it's own chapter on the disc. The disc starts with an introduction, then moves onto safety issues that should be observed whilst training. The rest of the disc contains the actual techniques, with a full demonstration of the form at the end. In the tape Mr Whitson uses one of his students - I think his name is Mr Josh Ryer.

The form starts with Clipping the Lance, a modified version of Clipping the Storm, but for a knife attack. Mr Whitson first introduces the 'base' technique that everyone will be familar with, but then moves onto how the technique can be utilized against a *trained* knife attacker. The technique starts with the arms's raised. The attacker steps in and thrusts the knife towards your belly with his right hand.

​

The defender steps back and deflects the the knife-thrust on the outside of the arm with a right downward parry. The next move in Lance/Storm is to destruct the attacker's outstretched arm with a left outward/downward handsword to the wrist. However before this action is completed the attacker 'back-draws' the knife to the opposite side of his body and there is no target to hit.

The third 'move' of Clipping the storm should be a right inward hand-sword to the forearm with your 'rear' arm. However the attacker has withdrawn the knife and is already returning with a backhand strike to your head. The strike which should be hitting the forearm is held high and blocks the incoming knife-strike, this time on the outside of the attacker's right arm (it is a backhand movement remember).

​

On this DVD Mr Whitson introduces a knife-fighting principle called 'Cross-hands' which teaches how to check and control a knife-arm, always using the 'opposite' hand to what you are being attacked with. It is not the attacking arm being used that is important here, but where the knife is coming from. If the attack comes from the *left* side of the attacker's body (using either his left or right hand) then the defender's *right* arm should be used to block/check the knife arm. Likewise, if the attack comes from the *right* side of the attacker's body (using either arm), the defender should use his *left* arm to counter the attack. Mr Whitson breaks this principle down and explains why it is important, and introduces several applications of it's use, including how to intregrate it into the knife-flow-drill.

Using this principle, the next move of clipping the lance requires the defender to bring his *left* arm up to check the outside of the attacker's arm, alongside the right arm which is already checking. The defender then attempts to circle the attackers arm down against his (attacker's) own body, and with the already-chambered right arm, re-attempts a right inward handsword to the knife-arm to cause a destruction.

No sooner as this action is taking place, the attacker withdraws his knife arm, steps out wide and cancels+controls the defender's width by checking (on the outside) of the defender's lead (left) arm, above the elbow, and also checks the defender's knee with his leg. The attacker's right arm draws back, ready for a kill-strike to the defender's head as he is turned away.

​

This takes us up to the next chapter on the DVD, Entwined Lance. Again Mr Whitson introduces the 'original' technique and then details how it has been integrated and modified to fit into this two-main knife drill. The technique follows on directly from the last with the two persons in the same fighting positions.

Look at the picture above. The knife thrust is coming in towards the head. Defender must step forwards into a rotating twist, bringing his left arm up to check the incoming knife-arm. He steps again in toward the attacker just like you do in Entwined Lance) with the right outward-hand-sword to the attacker's throat. However the attacker checks the incoming handsword.....

I'm going to stop there as hopefully people can see where this is going. Each knife technique flows into the next throughout the form. However the detail is in how each 'major move' is countered/recountered, by both attacker and defender. The form doesn't stop with the last technique though - when it gets to this stage, the Defender produces a knife and it is his turn to 'attack'. The roles reverse - the attacker becomes the defender, and the form repeats itself.

Basically the entire form is a free-flowing, dynamic two-man knife set. Rather than taking each technique to completion, portions of them are used with the idea that the attacker is *trained* and knows how to counter your defensive actions. Principles found in PTK (and in also in kenpo if you know where to look!) are interwoven into the techniques and what results is a fantastic two-man form which adds a totally new dimension to the kenpo knife techniques.

At the end of the DVD Mr Whiton (and ..) demonstrate the form, first slowly, then at full speed. It is simply amazing to watch. However at the start of the DVD Mr Whitson does state this this is just a 'beginner' form - and to properly train these concepts and obtain spontenaity, random timing and positions should be trained as well.

I would recommend this DVD / training series to anybody. People may say that all these countering/knife tactic principles are already in the 'base' techniques, but if you don't train that way to begin with (dynamically) then there is simply no way to train these concepts. This two-man form does a terrific job of presenting the 'troubled' kenpo knife techniques. The dynamic/free flow training nature will give you a new dimension to approach your kenpo training.

And if you haven't seen his first DVD (in which he presents 'regular' kenpo techniques such as five-swords, raining claw, leaping crane, retreating pendulum, and many more), then you really should try and seek this man out at seminars if you live in the US.

James

p.s. I hosted the images in this post at www.imageshack.us, as I couldn't find a way to attach them 'inline' using this forum's features. I've attached them all below just in case the image-shack links break.

 

[Hand Sword]

Cool Stuff. However, I would recommend studying the FMA's for stick and knife fighting over the Kenpo stuff. (sorry)

 

[MJS]

Using Glancing Lance:



The classical version of this technique has always been a little sketchy to me. It sounds about as easy as catching a boxer's jab. When I envision a thrusting knife attack, I see it as something close to his body, not extended, the elbows bent and achored, and him literally running into me as he makes a pin cushion out of my intestines. There is not just one thrust - its repeated again and again, and quickly. The fact that the attack is a shuffle and not a step through suggests he's already closer than he should be anyway.

Agreed!

Like most strikes to the groin, I personally do not see it as a strike to the groin. I see it as a forceful displacement of the hips by kicking into the pelvic gurdle. If he has genitals in the way that's his problem. My objective here is to affect height.

Agree again! One of the key principles: height, width and depth.

I personally like the use of a downward bracing angle check with my left forearm, literally pressing the offending arm into him. I don't use a lot of open hand in this sort of thing, as it requires more accuracy than I'll probably have given the adrenaline dump, speed, and anxiety that's at hand at the time. Gross motions with proper alignment. Does that make sense?

Yes, it makes perfect sense! I use this 'pressing' idea in my Arnis.

I personally feel "hopping" is insane. Step. Stay engaged at all times. If the attack was truly aggressive, you're dealing with his entire mass. After that powerful boot through the groin to the pelvis, he may buckle down and crash into you if your "checking palm" is inadequate to control his depth, and if your eye hook missed, leaving you nothing to control height with. Not to mention, if you're eye hook DID work right, then you've got a human eyeball in your palm, and now his mind is now in a co-contracting frenzy. Control of the dimensions is now critical; there's no telling what he'll do. When we work Leaping Crane, we don't "leap" at all. We step to about 10:30, then invade in towards 1:30 or so, never coming to that dangerous state called "balance".

I'm not a big fan of the hopping either, and I do not do it when I do Leaping Crane.

If this was truly a killing scenario (i.e. one requiring a kill), which in my mind it is, this would likely end like similar to leaping crane. The elbows anchored in no. 8 to control the torso, you should have the levarage and positioning to break the neck. There's no way I can describe that one by writing, the positioning must be very specific. If it didn't need to be taken to the kill, this is a great spot for the Jamdown (another difficult one to describe).

One last thing on the subject of killing. This is a point of fantasy for many, I believe, and I contend too few "knife practitioners" take the time to maturely contemplate the implications of a bladed scenario. I will first disclaim that I have never done such a thing, and pray I never have to. But all ethical and moral discussions aside, the human body is very tough and there are very few ways to bring about a quick kill. Something my teacher mentioned to me once that stuck with me: nothing is more dangerous than a human in the throngs of death. You remove an eyeball, you cut someone for the sake of cutting (i.e. "defanging the snake"), you are putting someone in that state of being, the desperate state of co-contraction. All cards are now on the table, and its not a weekend bar scrap anymore. It may be that their intent wasn't so much to kill you as to just give you a quick stick in the belly so they can grab your wallet and leave you in a fetal position for a likely rescue. Now its different, now they want you 100% D-E-A-D, and if they think they're dying, that is pretty much all they're set on doing. ANY failure to control the weapon nd their body could result in you dying too. Sketchy stuff, this knife business.

Any input is welcome, thanks for the discussion.

Steven Brown
UKF

You have made some EXCELLENT points!! Thank you for a very informative discussion!:asian:

Mike

 

[MJS]

I'd like to thank Atlanta-Kenpo and JamesB for posting feedback about the DVD's. Its certainly something worth checking out! I like the way Mr. Whitson has broken the moves down, taking into consideration that we may not be facing the 'average Joe' with a knife.

Thanks again to both of you!:asian:

Mike

 

[JamesB]

Cool Stuff. However, I would recommend studying the FMA's for stick and knife fighting over the Kenpo stuff. (sorry)

I general I agree - especially with the kenpo-knife 'base' techniques - a FMA (under which I believe Pekiti-Tersia would fall??) would be superior for knife/stick fighting against skilled opponents. After all these systems were developed, and 'stress tested' with this goal specifically in mind.

However do take the time to see what other (non-mainstream) people are doing with this stuff. I simply can't do justice in explaining what Mr Whitson has done with the kenpo techniques as I've not spent any serious time studying it.

 

[TChase]

Cool Stuff. However, I would recommend studying the FMA's for stick and knife fighting over the Kenpo stuff. (sorry)

Well that would depend on what Kenpo knife stuff you've been exposed to wouldn't it?

The problem with whole "knife fighting" idea is that there really is no "knife fighting"...just knife killing. Someone who attacks you with murderous intent isn't going to duel with you. Criminal violence is fast and brutal and if not dealt with at the onset of the engagement the results can be disastrous. There will be no back and forth.

 

[bujuts]

Someone who attacks you with murderous intent isn't going to duel with you. Criminal violence is fast and brutal and if not dealt with at the onset of the engagement the results can be disastrous. There will be no back and forth.

I can't help to to agree with Mr. Chase here, but that's expected as we are in the same group.

By this post I mean no slant whatsoever towards Mr. Whitson or any of his students. I've heard Mr. Whitson is very talented and have had the privelage of mat time with one of his students, who had much to offer. What I discuss below is based only on my VERY LIMITED understanding of the knife, and of course I welcome commentary.

On the notion of knife training. To train how to flow back and forth against an assailant with a knife, whether you have a knife or not - slipping, parrying, dodging, reading, trapping, and "countering" - teaches us to remain primarily in a reactive mode. If the enemy does this, I do this, if he does this, I react thusly. In my mind, this is incredibly dangerous, and requires enormous talent for someone to be effective against true violence. This approach, to me, spends much time dealing with the blade and limbs, and takes the primary emphasis off of the real threat - the person doing the cutting. At the inception of our action, we should be in attack mode. If we are successful at deflecting or stopping the initial action, we should be in pursuit of the spinal ring. Kenpo is a system of annhialating the other's ability to continue their assault - we take over their space and dominate their dimensions. Its a dangerous proposition to go back and forth.

To put this in perspective, I turn to JamesB's (very informative, btw) synopsis of the DVD's.

...The technique starts with the arms's raised. The attacker steps in and thrusts the knife towards your belly with his right hand

The defender steps back and deflects the the knife-thrust on the outside of the arm with a right downward parry. The next move in Lance/Storm is to destruct the attacker's outstretched arm with a left outward/downward handsword to the wrist.

I personally do not trust my accuracy in the chaotic fray of a life or death scenario to hit a wrist with a hand sword. As mentioned before, a gross motion with alignment is what I rely on, the path of action against the incoming line.

However before this action is completed the attacker 'back-draws' the knife to the opposite side of his body and there is no target to hit.

At this point, we as kenpoists should be on top of him, and if I could help it he'd have no more use of that knife. The pull back of the knife to the attacker's opposite side, a signature motion for many FMA systems, lacks a bracing angle. Granted, the empty hand is used as a countering item to parry and block. By and large this will work against your arm during a back and forth ebb and flow engagement, but it will not stand up to the freight train of your invading mass. In empty handed kenpo, we'd capitalize on this as we invade, pinning the offending arm to the torso as we assault. IMHO, our approach shouldn't differ just because he has a knife. The same principle applies.

The third 'move' of Clipping the storm should be a right inward hand-sword to the forearm with your 'rear' arm. However the attacker has withdrawn the knife and is already returning with a backhand strike to your head. The strike which should be hitting the forearm is held high and blocks the incoming knife-strike, this time on the outside of the attacker's right arm (it is a backhand movement remember).

Perhaps a skilled knife fighter would find a way to back up from the kenpoists' assault, I don't know. But this is the now the third cut to occur without us invading. If we are in range to parry the first strike, it shouldn't be more than a fraction of a second away from being in range to crack, crush, gouge, tear, break, or otherwise destroy some piece of his anatomy. The second and third strikes should only occur as a last ditch effort on his part. If we fail to engage, then we will get diced like sushi.

The same approach, then, should perhaps apply to the kenpoist using the knife? Otherwise, we might slip, parry, counter, cut, counter, slip, parry, cut, dodge, evade, cut, cut, and THEN make a final cut to the neck - then waiting of course about thirty to sixty *very long seconds* before he gets woozy (See my above post about leaving someone in the throngs of death - now you have a real menace on your hands)

Much of this points back to our intent in our training. There is much to be gained from drilling a continuous flow, and again I would have much to learn from anyone with the sorts of skills exhibited in this fashion. But insofar as survival as concerned, I contend our actions against a knife should be short, and the training should support this. We should not try to bleed the fight out of someone - they should be dead or nearly dead by the time we cover out. I have said before that kenpo is not a fighting system. It is a fight ending system. Continuous reaction is dangerous.

I'd like to hear the thoughts of others. There is nothing wrong with blending FMA into kenpo - this practice has put out alot of talented practitioners, not the least of which has been the subject of discussion here. I'm aware what I'm proposing is contrary to many some beneath FMA systems. However, if you look at the kenpo knife system, it operates the same as the empty handed system.

Your thoughts?

Cheers, thanks for reading.

Steven Brown
UKF

 

[lenatoi]

I have only had one experience with a knife "fight." One men had a knife, and the other one was on the floor with that guy's wife. Neither of the men had any kind of training, so this isn't exactly related, but it was a scary situation. By the time pictures were taken of the scene, the unarmed man was dead, and the attacker was covered in blood(the other guy's). It was hard to tell who the victim was.
When my husband arrived at the scene he asked the guy to put down the knife, and the guy did. That was how my husband used his training.
I'll tell you what, if he had decided to jump in there to save the guy instead of using his brain, I would have laid into him myself when he got home!
I know this is a bit off subject, but I thaught it was important to mention how you can use other things than you body in a fight. Aaron tells people thet he uses his kenpo every day. I think this is what he is talking about.

 

[Doc]

I can't help to to agree with Mr. Chase here, but that's expected as we are in the same group.

By this post I mean no slant whatsoever towards Mr. Whitson or any of his students. I've heard Mr. Whitson is very talented and have had the privelage of mat time with one of his students, who had much to offer. What I discuss below is based only on my VERY LIMITED understanding of the knife, and of course I welcome commentary.

On the notion of knife training. To train how to flow back and forth against an assailant with a knife, whether you have a knife or not - slipping, parrying, dodging, reading, trapping, and "countering" - teaches us to remain primarily in a reactive mode. If the enemy does this, I do this, if he does this, I react thusly. In my mind, this is incredibly dangerous, and requires enormous talent for someone to be effective against true violence. This approach, to me, spends much time dealing with the blade and limbs, and takes the primary emphasis off of the real threat - the person doing the cutting. At the inception of our action, we should be in attack mode. If we are successful at deflecting or stopping the initial action, we should be in pursuit of the spinal ring. Kenpo is a system of annhialating the other's ability to continue their assault - we take over their space and dominate their dimensions. Its a dangerous proposition to go back and forth.

To put this in perspective, I turn to JamesB's (very informative, btw) synopsis of the DVD's.



I personally do not trust my accuracy in the chaotic fray of a life or death scenario to hit a wrist with a hand sword. As mentioned before, a gross motion with alignment is what I rely on, the path of action against the incoming line.



At this point, we as kenpoists should be on top of him, and if I could help it he'd have no more use of that knife. The pull back of the knife to the attacker's opposite side, a signature motion for many FMA systems, lacks a bracing angle. Granted, the empty hand is used as a countering item to parry and block. By and large this will work against your arm during a back and forth ebb and flow engagement, but it will not stand up to the freight train of your invading mass. In empty handed kenpo, we'd capitalize on this as we invade, pinning the offending arm to the torso as we assault. IMHO, our approach shouldn't differ just because he has a knife. The same principle applies.



Perhaps a skilled knife fighter would find a way to back up from the kenpoists' assault, I don't know. But this is the now the third cut to occur without us invading. If we are in range to parry the first strike, it shouldn't be more than a fraction of a second away from being in range to crack, crush, gouge, tear, break, or otherwise destroy some piece of his anatomy. The second and third strikes should only occur as a last ditch effort on his part. If we fail to engage, then we will get diced like sushi.

The same approach, then, should perhaps apply to the kenpoist using the knife? Otherwise, we might slip, parry, counter, cut, counter, slip, parry, cut, dodge, evade, cut, cut, and THEN make a final cut to the neck - then waiting of course about thirty to sixty *very long seconds* before he gets woozy (See my above post about leaving someone in the throngs of death - now you have a real menace on your hands)

Much of this points back to our intent in our training. There is much to be gained from drilling a continuous flow, and again I would have much to learn from anyone with the sorts of skills exhibited in this fashion. But insofar as survival as concerned, I contend our actions against a knife should be short, and the training should support this. We should not try to bleed the fight out of someone - they should be dead or nearly dead by the time we cover out. I have said before that kenpo is not a fighting system. It is a fight ending system. Continuous reaction is dangerous.

I'd like to hear the thoughts of others. There is nothing wrong with blending FMA into kenpo - this practice has put out alot of talented practitioners, not the least of which has been the subject of discussion here. I'm aware what I'm proposing is contrary to many some beneath FMA systems. However, if you look at the kenpo knife system, it operates the same as the empty handed system.

Your thoughts?

Cheers, thanks for reading.

Steven Brown
UKF

Mr. Brown your position is eloquently and reasonably stated. Because I too agree with you and have said so it he past, let me be a tad more forthcoming in a response.

"Dueling with a skilled knife-fighter is sheer stupidity. Much like trying to out swin a shark. You may survive for a brief moment, but ultimately, you will lose. You must attack the attacker to have any chance of surviving the encounter." - Ron Chapél