Kenpojujitsu3
Master Black Belt
So are we saying that the American Kenpo System has no gaps, no areas of self defense that it doesn't cover, no areas of offense that it does not introduce?pete said:
Kenpo Knife and Club Techniques
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
Dark Kenpo Lord
Brown Belt
Dude, your thoughts are becoming so clear, it's inevitable you're going to see more improvement every passing day.pete said:
DarK LorD
Dark Kenpo Lord
Brown Belt
Kenpojujitsu3 said:
You'd be surprised just how married Kenpo, Hapkido, Chi Na, Aikido, and JJ are, and our discoveries show where they are intertwined in the base techniques, not only in the defense, but in the nature of the attack. The only gaps are simply percieved ones by the individuals, not to those that have a better general understanding of AK. For every situation you can find a gap, I probably have an answer, available within the paradigm of AK.
DarK LorD
Likaes the Bandit
White Belt
I know that if you practice, and practrice and then practice some more you will become a godd martial artis, that i know. every sistem works that beacuse they have been around for so long. And I know that my expirience in Kenpo is not that much to make a good observation in the subject at hand (at least for a few ones in this forum) but if there is no gap no need to refine what you have, could you guys tell me why are that much people looking for more, asking the questions like the one is this page?
and please dont tell me that is because they dont want to practice or they want to take the easy way out of a situation because is you like to take the easy way out of a situation, all you have to do is buy a gun not practice martial arts.
and please dont tell me that is because they dont want to practice or they want to take the easy way out of a situation because is you like to take the easy way out of a situation, all you have to do is buy a gun not practice martial arts.
Likaes the Bandit said:
As it was already said, there are often times when material is not fully understood by ones instructor. That being said, if the instructor does not have a good understanding of something, the student most likely will not as well. Often it takes someone who has that understanding to be able to clear up those questions. Those people are out there, but it may take some searching to find those people.
As for the cross training...Yes, you'll find people who cross train because they need to fill those gaps, or because that particular art happens to interest them. We don't always have to cross train but instead we can cross reference as DKL would say.
Despite what some may think, a gun is not the answer to every SD situation.
Mike
Dark Kenpo Lord
Brown Belt
I take it English is NOT your native tongue, if so, then I can tell you where to start looking, in the mirror.Likaes the Bandit said:
DarK LorD
Kalicombat
Green Belt
Kenpojujitsu3 said:
This topic has been gone over and there is no decisive answer. We all have our opinions based upon our experiences. Im not discounting anyones elses experience, nor trying to inflate my own. I'm just gonna say that in my personal experience, fights resulting in both parties UFC'ing it on the ground have been non existant. The ground game is not the end all of self defense, much to the shagrin of Blackbelt Magazine, countless little start-up BJJ schools, and legions of high school wrestlers turned MMA'ers.
As far as knife techniques, the best possible scenario is to have your Glock present, then the old adage about bringing a knife to a gun fight reigns true. The second best scenario is blade -vs-blade; dont leave home without it. If you find yourself against a blade, and the only weapon you have is a proficient applicable knowledge of the EPAK lance techniques, then you are equipped to handle the situation. That is, and only, if you can not walk, run, or catch a taxi away.
Concerning rod techniques, if your opponent has a gun, drawn, and ready to use, you'd better do whatever you can to survive. This is seldom some drunken testosterone-junky, and he isnt trying to show off for his friends. Use the techniques and whatever else you can to avoid at best, stop, injure, mame, or kill your attacker. I wont call a gun toter an opponent. At this point he is more then a test of ones kenpo skill, he is the enemy and there is nothing but survival.
In the event you get taken to the ground, a working knowledge of escape techniques would undoubtedly be a positive thing, however, as I have previously stated, in my experiences, this is not an occurance that has happened to me. I have tripped, and been kicked while getting back up. I have swept people and taken them down, but I did not join them there. I was content to kick them while they attempt getting up.
I agree with Darklord, there is an answer within the EPAK world if you look for it.
Gary C.
kenpoworks
Purple Belt
you are right Kalicombat, but the trick with kenpo or any other system is not having to start looking for an answer when you really need it! After all we are all experts after the fact.Kalicombat said:
Also I agree with you about surviving an assault armed or unarmed, being able to walk away is a result, believe it.
Q. do you have all the answers?....EP.I have'nt heard all the questions yet!
Rich
M
MisterMike
Guest
Yup. There's an answer in EPAK, Aiki Jujutsu, Aikido, Tai Chi, TKD, Kung Fu, Ju Jutsu, Judo, Karate, etc. if one of those practitioners "sees" the answer. This isn't unique to Kenpo. What is common in Kenpo is someone not seeing the answer played out by one of the 154 or whatever techniques.
By the way? How many knife fights was Ed Parker engaged in? How many times did he have to defend himself from a knife? I'm guessing not enough to claim any true system of knife fighting off of his personal experiences alone. We're studying theory and ideas. I wouldn't get caught up in the "This technique will save my butt" fantasy.
By the way? How many knife fights was Ed Parker engaged in? How many times did he have to defend himself from a knife? I'm guessing not enough to claim any true system of knife fighting off of his personal experiences alone. We're studying theory and ideas. I wouldn't get caught up in the "This technique will save my butt" fantasy.
Dark Kenpo Lord
Brown Belt
Please tell me this post is simple sarcasm. If not, you have some real problems with Kenpo. Most people doubt what they don't comprehend and I hear lots of doubt in your text if what you write are your true feelings.MisterMike said:
DarK LorD
M
MisterMike
Guest
I respect all arts and have no doubts about the integrity of any of them. Just certain practitioners. There was no slight against Kenpo.
Likaes the Bandit
White Belt
There is always room for improvement, in every little thing that people do.
Seabrook
Black Belt
I don't agree.Likaes the Bandit said:
In reality, what is happening is that more and more people are cross-training because they lack the persevearance and discipline to learn American Kenpo the right way so they pursue rank in as many arts as possible to push their egos. What is left is a less than optimal skill level in their base art.
Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
M
MisterMike
Guest
Cross training is good to see other styles' doctrines and strategies of dealing with weapons. Kenpo has its own, but other styles may better suit the particular individual.
Why keep going down the rabbit hole if you're sure it's empty?
There is no 1 single best answer (doctrine, strategy, technique set).
Why keep going down the rabbit hole if you're sure it's empty?
There is no 1 single best answer (doctrine, strategy, technique set).
MisterMike said:
IMO, this is a good point. We have defense against weapons and various grappling type attacks, such as a tackle, lapel grab, etc. These defenses in and of themselves are good, but to further expand our defense against these types of attacks, it may be good to look at an art such as Kali or Arnis for the weapons and Wrestling, BJJ, etc. for the grappling aspect.
What better person to go to, to learn about weapons, than someone who trains with these weapons on a daily basis? The same for grappling.
I've taken some of the various positions from BJJ, put myself in the less dominant one and have come up with some very good ways to fit my Kenpo in. Again, having someone who can guide you along this path is also a big help.
Mike
Kenpoist
Green Belt
The probability that you are going to be attacked by a skilled knife fighter is remote, unless you are somehow being targeted by some would be assassin or ninja clan (let's not get paranoid).
Most knife attacks are by some telephone tough guy/ mope/ criminal (who obviously can still kill you, but is not a Danny Inosanto knife expert). The kenpo system takes into account the probability of the most likely attack (right handed, basic knife attacks) and has techniques to counter these attacks. I disagree with the previous post stating that the knife techniques were not adequate for the slasher and skilled knife fighter. Someone tell me a "perfect" system for fighting a skilled knife fighter with empty hand. They will cut everything in front of them and take you out at a moments notice. Every gun/knife /club technique can be interchangeable for each respective attack and don't forget the other non-weapons techniques that you have in your arsenal.
Be aware of your surroundings, get the hell out of there if you can and look for a weapon to use if you find yourself in this predicament.
As previously stated , if you are worried about the "expert", than carry a gun, have a good pair of running shoes on or carry a blade to give the attacker a second thought about coming at you with an attack.
Let's be prepared but not paranoid.
Most knife attacks are by some telephone tough guy/ mope/ criminal (who obviously can still kill you, but is not a Danny Inosanto knife expert). The kenpo system takes into account the probability of the most likely attack (right handed, basic knife attacks) and has techniques to counter these attacks. I disagree with the previous post stating that the knife techniques were not adequate for the slasher and skilled knife fighter. Someone tell me a "perfect" system for fighting a skilled knife fighter with empty hand. They will cut everything in front of them and take you out at a moments notice. Every gun/knife /club technique can be interchangeable for each respective attack and don't forget the other non-weapons techniques that you have in your arsenal.
Be aware of your surroundings, get the hell out of there if you can and look for a weapon to use if you find yourself in this predicament.
As previously stated , if you are worried about the "expert", than carry a gun, have a good pair of running shoes on or carry a blade to give the attacker a second thought about coming at you with an attack.
Let's be prepared but not paranoid.
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
There are no complete arts, because there are no complete contexts, and arts are developed in context-specific arenas. In the context of judo grapplers who latch on to your lapels to toss you on your heiny, kenpo self-defense includes many options against lapel grabs. Due to the cross-contextual universality of sound basics, you can apply some context-specific techniques to "new" situations...attacks for which there is not a specific counter in kenpo. That means that:
1. Kenpo is not a perfect, pure system with pre-planned responses for all possible scenarios. It was never meant to be. It WAS meant to provide you the tools to develop as a practitioner to a point that you could creatively wing it and make up what was needed on the spot, based on your intimate understanding of body mechanics, interactive ballistics, and offense/defense interplay developed through many hours of training and rehearsal (both mental, and physical).
2. There is information useful for self-defense which resides OUTSIDE the standard kenpo repetoire. HOWEVER, using the vocabulary of motion, developed and understood over time & study, kenpo practitioners are best suited to re-interpret that data and assimilate it into their own vocabularies. Boxers have a hard time elucidating on the mechanics of motion present in a rear cross, but a kenpoist could write a thesis on it. Therefore, with a little training, he could do it. Ideally, better than a boxer (after proper deconstruction/reconstruction).
3. Parker cross-trained; it's where kenpo came from. Get over it.
4. The moves out there in other systems being practiced now weren't around in this particular form during the most recent evolutions in EPAK. The Gracies had been in America for a short time only prior to 12/90, and although their end-moves were super-similar to finishing holds from Judo, the transitions they used to get to them -- and the strategies the transitions were buried in -- were significantly different. (Personal note: I was in judo for over a decade, and it remains and integral part of the fighting skills I teach...after brief exposure to the GJJ material, I was able to handily manage and beat my former professors. Not a better me; just a different approach not seen before, so unplanned for). In order to learn how to best respond to a ground assault ala BJJ, it makes sense to me to learn the ins and outs of BJJ. I recently watched a video of a "senior" kenpo practitioner executing a SD tech against the mount...it was evident to me that his ground skills were never really very advanced, but at least he tried in the spirit of exploration; most kenpoists won't even get on the ground, much less put time into learning "how" to get on the ground and make it matter.
SO...while it remains unlikely that one will ever bump into a professional slasher or trained knife wielder, it does not -- in my mind -- justify remaining adamantly ignorant about what some of the knife-pro techniques look like. At the bare minimum, learn enough to recognize the grips and stances so you can tell when to disengage and run like hell.
Is there room for improvement in the kenpo knife and stick techs? Of course. Even the founder of our system would have looked at you cross-eyed for insisting the art was flawlessly designed. It was intelligently organized based on logic and need, as opposed to just being a standardized collection of traditional forms...but not flawless. Much of the arts SD techs were developed against what guys in the street were doing in the 50's and 60's as cops and collectors were bumping into attacks they needed viable responses for. Personally, with the increase in weapons availability & televised UFC brawls, I think the average joe crime-element guy on the modern street is a little more sophisticated then they were 30-40 years ago. But again, that doesn't mean kenpo need fail you.
In the end, it will not come down to what you don't know, but how ballsy and battle-ready you are with what you do know. There are lotsa guys out there with little or no training that would bounce black belts around like rubber baby toys, simply because -- in their minds -- they get what it means to be a fighter. Most kenpoists are hobbyists, and realistically will not benefit from EITHER cross-training OR really mastering kenpo to the Nth degree, because they will hardley ever find themselves in a place in their lives where they are fighting for their lives. Most of the several million kenpo practitioners worldwide will only ever fight for their lives in a hospital bed against enemies like heart disease, cancer and stroke. Last I looked, there was no good kenpo self-defense technique for checking the influences of time.
Train hard, stay real, and lighten up...3-score and ten are up before you know it.
Regards,
Dave
1. Kenpo is not a perfect, pure system with pre-planned responses for all possible scenarios. It was never meant to be. It WAS meant to provide you the tools to develop as a practitioner to a point that you could creatively wing it and make up what was needed on the spot, based on your intimate understanding of body mechanics, interactive ballistics, and offense/defense interplay developed through many hours of training and rehearsal (both mental, and physical).
2. There is information useful for self-defense which resides OUTSIDE the standard kenpo repetoire. HOWEVER, using the vocabulary of motion, developed and understood over time & study, kenpo practitioners are best suited to re-interpret that data and assimilate it into their own vocabularies. Boxers have a hard time elucidating on the mechanics of motion present in a rear cross, but a kenpoist could write a thesis on it. Therefore, with a little training, he could do it. Ideally, better than a boxer (after proper deconstruction/reconstruction).
3. Parker cross-trained; it's where kenpo came from. Get over it.
4. The moves out there in other systems being practiced now weren't around in this particular form during the most recent evolutions in EPAK. The Gracies had been in America for a short time only prior to 12/90, and although their end-moves were super-similar to finishing holds from Judo, the transitions they used to get to them -- and the strategies the transitions were buried in -- were significantly different. (Personal note: I was in judo for over a decade, and it remains and integral part of the fighting skills I teach...after brief exposure to the GJJ material, I was able to handily manage and beat my former professors. Not a better me; just a different approach not seen before, so unplanned for). In order to learn how to best respond to a ground assault ala BJJ, it makes sense to me to learn the ins and outs of BJJ. I recently watched a video of a "senior" kenpo practitioner executing a SD tech against the mount...it was evident to me that his ground skills were never really very advanced, but at least he tried in the spirit of exploration; most kenpoists won't even get on the ground, much less put time into learning "how" to get on the ground and make it matter.
SO...while it remains unlikely that one will ever bump into a professional slasher or trained knife wielder, it does not -- in my mind -- justify remaining adamantly ignorant about what some of the knife-pro techniques look like. At the bare minimum, learn enough to recognize the grips and stances so you can tell when to disengage and run like hell.
Is there room for improvement in the kenpo knife and stick techs? Of course. Even the founder of our system would have looked at you cross-eyed for insisting the art was flawlessly designed. It was intelligently organized based on logic and need, as opposed to just being a standardized collection of traditional forms...but not flawless. Much of the arts SD techs were developed against what guys in the street were doing in the 50's and 60's as cops and collectors were bumping into attacks they needed viable responses for. Personally, with the increase in weapons availability & televised UFC brawls, I think the average joe crime-element guy on the modern street is a little more sophisticated then they were 30-40 years ago. But again, that doesn't mean kenpo need fail you.
In the end, it will not come down to what you don't know, but how ballsy and battle-ready you are with what you do know. There are lotsa guys out there with little or no training that would bounce black belts around like rubber baby toys, simply because -- in their minds -- they get what it means to be a fighter. Most kenpoists are hobbyists, and realistically will not benefit from EITHER cross-training OR really mastering kenpo to the Nth degree, because they will hardley ever find themselves in a place in their lives where they are fighting for their lives. Most of the several million kenpo practitioners worldwide will only ever fight for their lives in a hospital bed against enemies like heart disease, cancer and stroke. Last I looked, there was no good kenpo self-defense technique for checking the influences of time.
Train hard, stay real, and lighten up...3-score and ten are up before you know it.
Regards,
Dave
Kenpojujitsu3
Master Black Belt
Excellent post Dave. I agree, very good and independently thought out points.
Kenpojujitsu3
Master Black Belt
Out of curiosity..your information says you're a blue belt in EPAK. How well versed are you in the knife/gun/stick techniques to say whether they are adequate or not? In every EPAK school I've ever visited or trained in you wouldn't have been exposed to the knife/gun except by observation at that level. And there is no perfect system against ANYTHING. SHOW ME the "perfect" system against punches/kicks/tackles/shoots/etc. and show me the expert. I guarantee myself and easily 200 other martial artists I know will nail the expert with the said technique. Your post seems to be anti-crosstraining but you mention 3 seperate systems in your information. I'm curious. Martial artists need to stop training to beat the "regular Joe" and start training to beat "the expert". If someone need Years on top of Years of training JUST to beat the inexperienced local idiot then they need to re-evaluate their training. The real problem is people claim to teach and learn self defense but don't want to train for the really hard self defense scenarios such as (wait for it) trained-experienced attackers. That's why many who say they're in the arts for self defense are really just hobbyists with false bravado looking to say "I know how to defend myself" whether it's true or not. And I'm not saying YOU I'mspeaking in generalities.Kenpoist said:
My personal opinion and how I train myself and my students: Simple. The worst scenario we can come up with we train for it. Whatever nasty situation we can think of we prepare as much as possible. I'd rather know a good way to defend against a skilled knife-wielder and not need it than need it (i.e. can't run away) and not know it. Suppose there is a skilled knife wielder/attacker and I'm walking with my 4 year old son? Can't out run him carrying a 40 pound child now can I? So what do I do now? That's how I train. Others might want to get over the training for the "best case scenario." If that's all we train for we might as well not train at all.
Kenpoist said:
IMHO, I feel that Dave and James made excellent posts! :asian: James made a good point here:
I agree with this 100%! If one wants to excell in something, they need to train with people better than them. Considering that the FMA's deal with stick and bladed weapons, I'd think that they'd be able to provide some different or possibly better ways to deal with those weapons. Sure, getting out of the situation is ultimately the best option, but if that option is not available, I for one, would want to have some tools under my belt.
As for who is delivering these attacks. Keep in mind that we're not going to know the persons skill level until the attack begins to unfold. I don't want to assume anything about my attacker.
In closing, it has nothing to do with being paranoid, it has to do with preparing ourselves for the worst case scenario.
Mike
