Is Rank Revokable?

[Rich Parsons]

Like I said before, you cannot take away the skill or knowledge, you can take away the rank.

The military has retired, Honorable, Medical, Other than Honorable, and Dishonorable. You can loose your rank and benefits, yet the knowledge they taught you is still there. Does this prohibit you from going to someone elses's army? No way. The same holds true, you can go to another Martial Art. It is a little bit harder to have your own army, even though you can open your own school.

On the opening your own school, you can do this today with out rank or certs or just print your own up and hang em up on the wall.

In the end those who train with you may learn what you know and do not know. Yet, you may still not be a recognized member or hold/have rank in an art.

Best regards

 

[SenseiBear]

For my 2 cents (and as an aside... didn't there used to be a symbol for "cents" on typewriter keys... what happened to it?)

Rank is not revokable. We have codified that concept in our school. Certificates read (in part) "you have demonstrated mastery of the requirements for promotion to the rank of ________..... you are hereby promoted to the permanent rank of ________, and are honor bound to uphold and perpetuate the traditions....."

The certificates read the same for yellow belt or Master. You have demonstrated mastery of that level of technique before a panel of blackbelts (or masters, depending on the level), and rank and a certificate has been issued in recognition of your mastery over that set of skills, techniques, etc. If after 10 years of not training you lose your skill set, that is to your shame for not living up to your rank, not our shame for bestowing it upon you.

SB

 

[tshadowchaser]

are honor bound to uphold and perpetuate the traditions

and what about the ones who dishonor the traditions or make a mockery of them?

 

[SenseiBear]

Well again, that is their disgrace. We (as a group of students and instructors) can refuse to associate with that person. They can be prevented from promoting further... If they were my student, I would likely feel embarassed that I promoted them - but I cannot be responsible for anothers actions.

If I give a few bucks to a beggar, that is for my karma - if they buy booze or drugs with it, that is their karma to deal with, not my responsibility.

I can control who I associate with, and who I endorse - but as rank is given in recognition of a certain skill set, I can no more revoke it than I can their skills. (philosophy and personal development are an integral part of our system, and a persons philosophical understanding and beliefs are tested prior to the physical test - again, we hope to weed out the "bad guys")

 

[Shurikan]

We train our students to believe that the belt only represents there knowledge and ability in the Arts. I know as an instructor i can take away the belt, but i can not take away what it took to get that belt, it can only be lost by the student who lets it get lost.

 

[Tgace]

What does revoking rank really achieve? You arent able to brainwash the physical shill out of somebody, and you dont need a belt (or even skill) to open a school. In the military, when rank is revoked, you are no longer allowed to work in the position that rank afforded. Unlike in MA.

 

[Flatlander]

What does revoking rank really achieve? You arent able to brainwash the physical shill out of somebody, and you dont need a belt (or even skill) to open a school. In the military, when rank is revoked, you are no longer allowed to work in the position that rank afforded. Unlike in MA.

While this is true, opening a school without being able to use well recognized affiliations would somewhat reduce the credibility of the instructor, wouldn't it? I mean, the revocation doesn't necessarily need to be a public thing (humiliation) in order to take something away. The whole point of having affiliations with other larger groups would be for the added credibility and exposure that can bring someone ($), so I can see a revocation of that being detrimental to one's success ($). Perhaps not an impasse, but a speed bump.

 

[Tgace]

That may be true if you have aspirations to MA notoriety, but Ive yet to see any streetcorner dojo where students even asked to verify anybodies credentials. But yeah, the politics of the thing will bite you if you try to climb the ladder.

 

[Kenpodoc]

I think that this discussion is in general about the exception and not the rule. There are truly bad people who get Black Belts and teaching certificates. Most squabbles are about personal problems and personal disagreements and respect and not about truly dangerous people. I think this line of questioning mostly points out that Instructors should be careful about who they promote because if that person goes "wrong" they can never completely erase them from their lineage.

Jeff

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I think that this discussion is in general about the exception and not the rule. There are truly bad people who get Black Belts and teaching certificates. Most squabbles are about personal problems and personal disagreements and respect and not about truly dangerous people. I think this line of questioning mostly points out that Instructors should be careful about who they promote because if that person goes "wrong" they can never completely erase them from their lineage.

Agreed. Why don't we look at an example that might be appropriate to revoke a person’s rank or status.


http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2224&highlight=Dino

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/1494272/detail.html

You be the judge. :asian:

 

[Rob Broad]

Agreed. Why don't we look at an example that might be appropriate to revoke a person’s rank or status.


http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2224&highlight=Dino

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/1494272/detail.html

You be the judge. :asian:

The second story form the news site seems real familiar. Kind of reminds me of a Guy in London ON area, that did teh exacts same things. Both guys should be stripped of all rank, and removed from society permenently.

 

[Tgace]

Strip away...nothing stopping them from teaching though. Unless a court orders it.

 

[loki09789]

Agreed. Why don't we look at an example that might be appropriate to revoke a person’s rank or status.


http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2224&highlight=Dino

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/1494272/detail.html

You be the judge. :asian:

Unless you have a clear code of conduct/oath of some kind that either clearly states or reasonably implies that there are character/priniciples that are to be maintained, you can not logically revoke rank, even for something like these cases.

Reasonably, if these are instances in your school, you can kick the person out an basically cut off that person from any hope of advancement.

And, as I have said before, any titles/jobs that have authority/decision making powers can be revoked.

If a teacher is caught in a statutory violation with a student, they don't loose their 'rank' as in degrees that represent the knowledge/skill they attained. They DO loose their license to do legal business as a professional. They do loose the institutionally given authority which would give them access to students or opportunity to do more harm.

I can understand the emotional outcry to distance yourself from someone who is guilty of something like this and to demonstrate in a public way your disapproval, but reasonably speaking rank in martial arts is skill and can not be removed.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Unless you have a clear code of conduct/oath of some kind that either clearly states or reasonably implies that there are character/priniciples that are to be maintained, you can not logically revoke rank, even for something like these cases.

Many orgs do have codes of conduct that DO address unethical behavior. Mine happens to be one of them. I believe that you are innocent until proven guilty, but if found guilty actions will be taken. Ultimately you can’t take knowledge away from somebody, but you can pull all endorsement that you or your org has given.

Paul - Ask your teacher what two people that GM Presas revoked their rank in Buffalo.


Respectfully, :asian:

 

[loki09789]

Paul - Ask your teacher what two people that GM Presas revoked their rank in Buffalo.


Respectfully, :asian:

Already know about them and have even read the letter that started the process on one of them and understand the underlying interaction/personallity issues that were in part the motivation for that one. I would say that, as in all cases, there are more than one perspective on these as well.

It is too late to be cryptic now Tim, in the archives of past posting, you have told your version of stories about these attempted revokations in far more detail. Especially the one involving Jerome. Alluding to, airing or retelling these incidents here (especially after your refusal to accept or set up phone contact, email/pm communication about anything like this stuff) is in poor taste and puts Modern Arnis as a system/family/RP in a bad light that is unnecessary IMO.

I will not entertaining such discussions here any further because I do believe that we are moving into the are again of talking about someone (ie Jerome) instead of too them. If you would be willing to set up a phone chat time or accept PM's emails on things like this now, after refusing to do so in the past, to discuss these types of things in private instead of here, that would be better.

In the wise and wonderful words of Forrest Gump: "And that's all I have to say about That"

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Yes, rank is revokable. But don't forget, the martial arts are not the military. In the military, if you lose a stripe, you also lose pay, prestige, and privledges.

In the martial arts, you lose your belt within your organization, and that's it. They can't remove your years of knowledge.

In the martial arts you can have your rank revoked simply over a petty disagreement with your instructor, or a dispute with the organization's policy. And so what!

That is how so many different schools get started, when senior students have a falling out with their sensei's or sifu's - they start their own school, and start their own ranking system.

Look at all the petty little girly man arguments and dojo politics within styles of ju-jitsu, karate, and kung fu. And soon to happen in judo over sports/martial arts affiliation.

I am very loyal to judo, whether I lose my rank or not, and intend to practice it for the rest of my life, even if I have to start my own judo dojo and my own ranking system, rather than practice judo as a sport!

So rank is revokable in the martial arts, but the question is - so what?

 

[loki09789]

So rank is revokable in the martial arts, but the question is - so what?

Thank you! Though I don't agree with the idea of rank being revokable the idea that "so what" because they can't take the skill or knowledge is where we agree. To me ALL martial arts rank is based on skill/knowledge predominately so IMO it is not revokable BUT ultimately because you retain the skill/knowledge "So what"

love it.

 

[dubljay]

Yes I feel that rank is revokable in certain situations. For example: if a student recieves a higher rank, and neglects the basics that came before and his/her performace deterorates considerably and refuses to correct the situation I believe that their rank should be reduced at least temporarly. Or if a student uses their skills in an unacceptable manner then clearly the student has missed basic ethical concepts of lower ranks. That is provided the student isn't removed from the school.

As for myself I reached 3rd brown in EPAK, but not having worked out in over 3 months my blue and green belt techniques are in bad shape. I will not wear my brown belt until I feel, or an instructor feels that I am ready to proceed with new material. However I am slowly starting regular workouts to pollish all my basics. But thats just me.

-Josh

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Yes I feel that rank is revokable in certain situations. For example: if a student recieves a higher rank, and neglects the basics that came before and his/her performace deterorates considerably and refuses to correct the situation I believe that their rank should be reduced at least temporarly. Or if a student uses their skills in an unacceptable manner then clearly the student has missed basic ethical concepts of lower ranks. That is provided the student isn't removed from the school.

As for myself I reached 3rd brown in EPAK, but not having worked out in over 3 months my blue and green belt techniques are in bad shape. I will not wear my brown belt until I feel, or an instructor feels that I am ready to proceed with new material. However I am slowly starting regular workouts to pollish all my basics. But thats just me.

-Josh

Hi Josh,

I think that 'revokable' and 'reducable' are two different things. I have seen rank reductions all the time. Mostly when a new student with a high rank in the same style, but from a different instructor, clearly cannot keep up with students of equal rank in his new school. So a rank reduction is in order.

For example: A student who earned a black belt from a franchise school in style X, decides to enroll in a formal school teaching style X. When he gets evaluated and cannot even begin to compare with the other blackbelts of the same level, then he will be reduced in rank (but not have his rank revoked).

Revoking a rank is an extreme action.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Especially the one involving Jerome. Alluding to, airing or retelling these incidents here (especially after your refusal to accept or set up phone contact, email/pm communication about anything like this stuff) is in poor taste and puts Modern Arnis as a system/family/RP in a bad light that is unnecessary IMO.

Why do you turn everything into attacking you and camp Barber? There were two people (not Jerome) that had there ranks revoked while Jerome was still with Remy. You can ask him whom I'm refering to.