Belt Revoked...did my brains go too?

[ChingChuan]

Hm, I think I agree with kidswarrior. If you've achieve a rank in a honest way, you can't suddenly take it away, just as you can't take away someone's high school diploma or something. Maybe some people do it, but I'd think of it as... strange... Does a rank reflect the organisation or does it reflect a person's skill? I'd say the latter.

And, well, even if a person has commited a crime (a real crime, like murdering someone), would it be right to 'take away' the rank? I mean, even though that person has become a criminal, he still retains the knowledge, and I've never heard of instances in which high school or universities suddenly took away the degrees criminals had obtained at their school.

So maybe we're just over-rating the concept of rank?

However, IF my rank (I don't have any, but if I were to have one) would be taken away, I don't think I'd be really 'cool' and distanced about it. I'm human after all! A rank, especially a high one, is something you worked for, it means emotionally a lot for you. So, if it's taken away, of course, you know that you've still got the knowledge, but apart from the stress of being 'expelled', I think that the taking away of my rank would be a big blow to me. So, yes, I think I'd feel quite worthless at first. In the end, obviously, I'd overcome it etc.etc. but I don't think that I'd just walk away, laughing, after they took away my rank.

 

[Sukerkin]

Kidswarrior's perspective outlined above is a very good one - I hadn't really thought of the issue in such terms before.

I have to say that before reading that, I'd've spoken in line with the 'lawyers being disbarred' approach. Now I'll have to think about it with a wider view (never a bad thing ).

 

[MJS]

I've read a fair number of threads where someone has a falling out with their organization/school/instructor, and the end result is someone has their rank revoked.

Sometimes, there seems to be solid reasons, as in the case of the child molester who was ejected from his organization after conviction. Sometimes it's over money or personality conflicts. An easy dozen reasons are out there in different places.

But, what does it really mean?


To me, it simply means "I/This Organization, no longer recognize you as a member in good standing, nor consider your rank in this group active."

You still have the knowledge. You can still hopefully demonstrate technical mastery. You still have that which you learned. That, can't be taken away.

Right?




Thoughts? (I'm leaving this post unfinished on purpose.

)

Yes, that is the way I take it as well. The rank, knowledge and belt is something that is earned, therefore can't be taken away. Yes, you can be removed from a school or organziation, so if that is what people mean by 'revoked' then yes, thats correct. If someone wanted the belt bad enough, they are a dime a dozen, so it would really be nothing to buy a new belt.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Okay, but ...

Let's say you don't know much about martial arts and you want to sign up your kid for lessons. You do so and, after a few years your kid is ready to test for a high color rank or for black belt, and you somehow and quite suddenly come into the knowledge that his/her teacher has had his/her rank "revoked" by his/her instructor or is no longer recognized as ranking in his/her former organization.

Would you still have the same opinion?

I really don't thinks its on the same lines as say a doctor. AFAIK, don't they have to maintain a license or something to practice medicine? Different with the arts. Perhaps they're training under a new org? Then again, is it a requirement that you have to be affiliated with a large org? A Kenpo school can choose to be part of Larry Tatums organization, but they don't have to be in order to teach Kenpo.

How do you come to the truth in the situation, -or- how does a lay person or a martial arts newbie discover the truth about said person? Doesn't it then become a matter of he-said-she-said? And what would you do if you couldn't discover *the truth*? Change schools/instructors and ... start ... all ... over???

Research.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yes, that is the way I take it as well. The rank, knowledge and belt is something that is earned, therefore can't be taken away. Yes, you can be removed from a school or organziation, so if that is what people mean by 'revoked' then yes, thats correct. If someone wanted the belt bad enough, they are a dime a dozen, so it would really be nothing to buy a new belt.

Mike

I am in agreement here. Once the belt is earned it really cannot be revoked or taken away. So as instructors you can and should be careful in giving out rank. However, removing someone from an organization or basically putting out a message that someone is no longer part of an organization and that in a very agregious situation that they do not represent the organization and that the organization will have nothing to do with them is fine. (excommunication - hamon, etc)

I have seen instructors use the removal of a belt as a tool or weapon so to speak and those that have done this have greatly lost my respect. Several of these instructors were using this as a leverage point to keep someone under their thumbs and part of their organization because those individuals were paying them lots of money. This type of business tactic is something that is really appalling.

 

[Grenadier]

Several scenarios:

Stripping someone of his rank completely, is nothing more than a symbolic gesture. In such cases, the individual is usually exiled from the organization, and usually did something so offensive to the organization, that they want nothing to do with him at all. Often times, when this happens, it's occurs when the exiled individual has already left the organization anyways.


Stripping someone of his rank, and giving him a lesser rank, is still quite rare amongst the dan rank holders, but it sometimes does happen. One such organization's head decided that he would re-test all of his instructors, since some were reportedly not things the way he had taught them. When test time came, The overwhelming majority of the instructors were basically given the "OK," and were kept at the same rank. A few outstanding ones were promoted, a couple were demoted by a single dan rank, and given an opportunity to re-test for their previous ranks a month later (and both did quite well the second time around).

 

[arnisador]

Licenses, degrees, citizenship, and other types of recognized status can be revoked. I see it as merely a statement of disapproval by the body that conferred the status in the first place. If a state board revokes a surgeon's license, they are merely saying "We can no longer endorse this person as qualified." He remains as qualified as he was...which may be unqualified, if the status was originally granted in error/based on false information, or his abilities have changed. If he had had a stroke, it might even be non-pejorative--a necessity to remove it.

Revoking a belt is akin to revoking a college degree, to my mind. Either someone lied about something before being promoted (e.g., a candidate for black belt hid a felony murder conviction that might be viewed by the org. as making him morally unfit, or a candidate plagiarised a black belt thesis, etc.), or they have since done something dishonorable in the eyes of the org. or not kept up their skills. (It seems to me that rank is almost never revoked for a medical condition.) Only if their skills have fallen off due to negligence or ill health, or perhaps if they have failed to keep up with changes in the art, could you really argue that they have retrogressed.

I always assume it's a political matter. That doesn't mean that one side mightn't be right and the other wrong--sometimes it's that simple. To my mind it's usually preferable to boot them from the org. but not try to take away their rank.

Still, several years back a fellow arnis org. had one of their instructors convicted of molesting children--his students--at out-of-town, multi-day arnis camps. He was kicked out of their org. (I assume--at least, he lost his administrative position). Would you revoke his rank? I wouldn't want anyone to hire him as a martial arts instructor once he gets out of prison. Should his org. answer queries as "He has a black belt but we don't recognize it as a credential any longer" or as "No, it was revoked--draw your own conclusions as to why." In some senses it's safer to revoke it (not that the felon wouldn't find a way around that, but it's better for the org., I think). He's as good a martial artist (on technical grounds) as ever--but would you still say he's a good martial artist all-around?

It hardly matters in most cases, though, practically speaking. Still, some orgs. use ranks that "time out" after a set number of years. I think that that's not a bad idea. I occasionally meet someone who says "I'm a black belt" and he hasn't practiced for over 20 years and can no longer recall the full name of the style and org., just "some type of karate" or the like. You're inactive, dude--you're retired.

 

[Sukerkin]

That last point is a good one that hasn't been touched on yet, arnisador.

As an example, it's very pertinent to me, actually, as, through no fault of my own I had to stop practising Lau Gar. This was nearly twenty years ago and I haven't made much of my black sash in the style other than as a sort of credential that I have some idea of what I'm talking about on martial arts issues {fellow members may feel free to chortle at this conceit (but should bear in mind that I now play with swords :stock-villain evil glare: ) :lol:}.

However, I could decide to use it as a credential for more lucrative endeavors, such as opening a school for beginners. Given that I haven't practised for so long, that would be laughable. Then again, 'students' who actually paid for the standard of tuition I could provide after so long inactive probably shouldn't be allowed out on their own .

Anyhow, the point is that I could do this if I chose - I might even be sincere when I did it thinking that I might not have the 'moves' any more but I can still teach 'the heart of the art' :angel: (this being despite the fact that if I was to re-test today I probably wouldn't even rate a white sash ).

I think most of is would consider this fraudulent, which is why I think arnis's point about time-limited certification is a valid one. I for one wouldn't object to being down-checked on an organisations list of 'qualified' instructors if I didn't retest every now and again. After all, I have to do similar for certain other (work related) certifications I hold, so why not my Martial Arts?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I've watched a number of people over the last few years check out schools. Rarely do they get past the 'what rank are you' question to the more important ones like 'when was your last test, who was your instructor, where did you accredit, etc'.


Sometimes, ranks are revoked simply because someone didn't pay the annual fee. The arguement for this made was something like comparing it to a drivers license, or hunting license. My problem with that is, it's not a license, but a diploma. My high school is gone, yet I'm still a graduate, and my diploma is still considered valid. I don't have to send in $50 every year to my college to keep my degree. I don't send in a check to Comptia or Microsoft annually to continue my certifications under them. So, why, when so many people insist on using the educational system as the model for their promotions, do they make this modification? Money. Plain and simple. Maybe in these cases, they should issue a dual certificate, a non-expiring diploma of completion, and an annually renewing for a fee teaching license?

 

[arnisador]

Well..some orgs. do see the black belt as conferring instructor's status and do think of it as an informal etacher's license. If you don't visit the HQ once per year to be checked up on, they say, you may still be doing well--but we can't vouch for it.

Kaith's comments point to an unresolved and unresolvable question: Does a black belt certify martial arts technical skill, teaching ability and suitability, or some combination of those and good character, etc.?

The black belt represents many things to many people. It's like a H.S. diploma only if it represents having completed a specified curriculum to a specified level in a specified time period. It's like a driver's license if the skills must be (demontrably) maintained, even despite illness. It's like a teacher's license if one must keeping showing the ability to teach it and having kept up with changes.

What does the black belt mean?

 

[Em MacIntosh]

Oh the politics.
If I was a soke (real one) of my own method of karate it would be taught to my son if I had one. If I did take other students it would remain a very small class (three or four max) and we would train five hours per day. As my students achieved 3rd or 4th dan, I would determine if they are competent to teach others. If so they would have the option of opening another school. I would still be soke and anyone achieving the dan ranks would be graded by me and my shihan (plural) if I had trained anyone to that level. If anyone would be authorized to strip a rank it would be me and I would not do it. A black belt (earned) is a milestone, but it's just cloth. For all the emphasis on cotton, I would no more strip a student of rank than tell him not to use his karate ever again for all the good that would do. If I had moral issues with one of my students and I did not want them representing me I would kick them out of the school and continue to recognize their rank. If they went on to teach karate in their own dojo, they could not consider me soke and would have to rename their art or I would sue them. If someone wanted verification of lineage, I would tell them they trained under me, tell them the last rank I graded them for, and they are not authorized to teach my art. They would have to become their own first generation soke. Would this do any good though? He would still teach what I taught him. Calling it something different. Like a belt, words are symbolic. I feel symbolism is overemphasised to a point where it removes some people from reality. You cannot take away knowledge, a name's just a name and a belt is good for holding your pants up.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

By the way I'm a blue belt aspiring for my black. The symbolicism is important to me too.

 

[IcemanSK]

I like KwanJang's comparing it to disbarment for a lawyer. The knowledge is still there, but "we" don't sanction him/her any longer. There are times when it's appropriate (Like the situation KJ mentioned). In fact, there is a Dateline "Predator" episode of a TKD instructor who was caught. Dateline mentioned that months after the episode aired, he was still listed as an instructor on their website. This is a good example of an opportunity to somehow "disbar" this person from one's organization: as it might invite negative attention on one school or organization.

my 2 cents.

 

[LawDog]

Ranking represents a level of achieved physical ability, this can never be taken away from anyone.
When an organization strips away your Dan ranking they are taking away your ability to be promoted higher and your ability to promote someone within their system.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Brains gone too? Never had any, so no harm or foul here.

D.