Is Rank Revokable?

[loki09789]

But isn't tenure revokable?

Also, how can a decision be organic?

Tenure is not Rank. Tenure is a period of probation that gives you the chance to show that you are worth becoming vested in the institution - this could equate to 'authority.' Tenure cannot be revoked because it is like Seniority in the private sector. If you devoted x number of years then those years can not be taken away.

The educational equivalent of martial rank is your degrees. No one can take away the degree.

NONE of this attempt to make a distiction between 'rank' (please read a representation of skill and knowledgel) and 'authority'(read decision making power or institutionally sanctioned power like "Treasurer" or "Testing Officer") is to say that people should not be held accountable for wrond doings, misconduct or acting outside of the 'corporate culture' of a given group.

I think too many people unconsciously link martial arts rank with a pseudo-military/monkish 'power' with each promotion. It ain't so. I had a thread that talked about breaking down your weekly, monthly and rank levels into percentages of topics that are focused on in training (80% Kata, 10% conditioning...and so on). I would say people really need to pay attention to what is emphasized (by the amount of time spent, volume of what is verbally reinforced during instruction and practice...) to consider what 'rank' really means.

If you just observe what you are tested on and what the majority of training time is devoted to, rank is about skill and knowledge almost 100%.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Tenure is not Rank. Tenure is a period of probation that gives you the chance to show that you are worth becoming vested in the institution - this could equate to 'authority.' Tenure cannot be revoked because it is like Seniority in the private sector. If you devoted x number of years then those years can not be taken away.

The educational equivalent of martial rank is your degrees. No one can take away the degree.

NONE of this attempt to make a distiction between 'rank' (please read a representation of skill and knowledgel) and 'authority'(read decision making power or institutionally sanctioned power like "Treasurer" or "Testing Officer") is to say that people should not be held accountable for wrond doings, misconduct or acting outside of the 'corporate culture' of a given group.

I think too many people unconsciously link martial arts rank with a pseudo-military/monkish 'power' with each promotion. It ain't so. I had a thread that talked about breaking down your weekly, monthly and rank levels into percentages of topics that are focused on in training (80% Kata, 10% conditioning...and so on). I would say people really need to pay attention to what is emphasized (by the amount of time spent, volume of what is verbally reinforced during instruction and practice...) to consider what 'rank' really means.

If you just observe what you are tested on and what the majority of training time is devoted to, rank is about skill and knowledge almost 100%.

Hello Paul,

Thank you for this answer. Some of my tenured professors have lost their tenure for various reasons, I was wondering what the process of being 'de-tenured' was? It took some action from the Dean and Chancellor to have one prof lose his tenure for some academic scandal.

Also, in my obsessive research on the genius Dr. Jigoro Kano, he designated judo training to consist of the following ratio: 80% Randori; 17% Kata; and 3% shiai, which I concur (source: 'What Is Rank?' Donn Draeger). Dr. Kano also warned that "competition should not be too emphasized!"

This is the attitude reflected by the KANO SOCIETY http://www.kanosociety.org which is 'not' Zen Judo, but traditional judo as prescribed by the founder, and not twisted into a sport by the International Judo Association.

Yours in judo

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

This thread has shared a lot of different opinions on the same topic and as long as we agree to disagree, there shouldn’t be any real problems here. I would like to share some information which may help people understand where I am coming from. In Modern Arnis, most black belt and instructor certificates have expiration and/or renewal dates on them. This was to keep the instructors current on their material as well as coming up with a solution for the belt collectors who would earn a belt and then disappear.

To Professor, black belt and instructor certificates were almost the same thing, which is why there were expiration dates on them. Under the Inosanto lineage of Jeet Kune Do there are no belts, but levels of instructors. At one time, having a Jeet Kune Do instructor teaching at my school, I had the opportunity to look at his diplomas. They, like the Modern Arnis diplomas, had expiration dates on them. Now in Modern Arnis ALL of the black belt and instructor promotions came directly from GM Presas himself and when rank was suspended or revoked, it was by his hand. Now the big argument is that you can’t take away knowledge or skill, which is correct. But these two attributes need to be maintained. Over time we may neglect to train certain attributes or techniques due to injury, time constraints or possibly forgetting the technique itself.

This policy was there from the beginning of my Modern Arnis training. So in this discussion, to me stripping of the rank is not unheard of. Personally I would have like to seen it be stripping of instructor status, but too many people see black belt and instructor as the same thing. For the record, I feel that this should be done only in extreme circumstances and should not happen on a regular basis. I only know of a small number of incidents that it actually happened and the in case that I know of, I feel that it was done justly. Once again, I would like to state that I respect people’s opinions even if they differ from my own.

Respectfully, :asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Mr. Martin-

In this thread you have made comments about policies of GM Presas and Modern Arnis. I would like to point out to you and anyone who may have read this, that you really have no clue when it comes to Modern Arnis policy. You have admittedly said that you met Professor Presas only once, possibly twice, in your Modern Arnis career. You are a second generation student of the Professor and your instructor left the organization around 1992-1993. Now, there are no guarantees that you were taught any policies in the Modern Arnis world. There were many updates in both the art as well as the organization since 1992. Now seeing that you had no ties to the governing body, it would be difficult for you to make any comments on what was or was not policy. By no means am I trying to attack you. I just want to point out that you are out of the loop when it comes to topic of Modern Arnis policies and procedures and I wouldn’t want anyone to get the wrong idea due to misinformation.

Respectfully, :asian:

 

[ARNIS PRINCESS]

I feel that it may be alright in certain cases.

 

[loki09789]

Mr. Martin-

In this thread you have made comments about policies of GM Presas and Modern Arnis. I would like to point out to you and anyone who may have read this, that you really have no clue when it comes to Modern Arnis policy. You have admittedly said that you met Professor Presas only once, possibly twice, in your Modern Arnis career. You are a second generation student of the Professor and your instructor left the organization around 1992-1993. Now, there are no guarantees that you were taught any policies in the Modern Arnis world. There were many updates in both the art as well as the organization since 1992. Now seeing that you had no ties to the governing body, it would be difficult for you to make any comments on what was or was not policy. By no means am I trying to attack you. I just want to point out that you are out of the loop when it comes to topic of Modern Arnis policies and procedures and I wouldn’t want anyone to get the wrong idea due to misinformation.

Respectfully, :asian:

Well, why don't you explain what you do know instead of implying that you 'know what I don't know' (which you don't). Just because you change the language and add disclaimers like "... by no means..." doesn't mean that it the message isn't "Shut up, because you don't know what you are talking about."

Dispute my points. MA was a referencial example only because it was the organization that I was affiliated with. It is by no means the only example.

I never claim to be anything more than what I am. A student of a student of RP. Fine, but that doesn't mean that I don't/didn't keep my finger on the pulse of the organization. Just because I didn't talk to you doesn't mean total ignorance. AND, official affiliations does not mean that MA members post 92 weren't still associates of Jerome's or mine. I really wish you would stop trying to undermine folks and just discuss the points.

What 'character standards' were specifically included in RP's (please specify WHICH organization as well) rank/instructor charters/code of conduct... that would be used to justify rank revokation?

You made the point that Rank had expiration dates on it, under which organization and which time? Jerome's rank had no expiration dates from my viewing of the certificates.

Again, if you want to discuss points like this in more detail, PLEASE do so through PM or Email so that we don't end up degrading or hijacking the topic of discussion.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Regarding the Modern Arnis sidebar:
Most != All

I have heard many stories on various peoples ranks from many sides.
In the end, the heads of the organizations make the rules.

If Remy revolked the rank, or didn't add the expiration dates, that was his option.
If he did, well, he made those rules.

Those who left the parent group gave up the right for that rank to be reconized, as they were no longer members of the organization.

It doesn't dimininsh their skills, just their right to wear rank, until such time as they can find another group to reconize them.

For example:
I have a blue belt.
A WMAA blue belt.
Can I goto the IMAF and be reconized as a blue there?
I haven't been on the floor in a while.
Is it still even valid?
How about if I quit?
Is it then?

Ranks expire, drop, or are revolked all the time.
1 group does not have to reconize anothers ranks.
Skill however can only be lost, nor revolked.
I lose my skill by not using it, not working it, or through injury.
Saying "You are not a Black Belt" doesn't mean I lose the black belt skills...
just the right to claim that rank.

In the end, for me, rank is just a way to keep score. One also must know the scoring system in order to properly compare across different systems.

I look for skill, not rank in my teachers.
The sheepskin and sash is secondary.
My opinion. t's all.

Peace.

 

[loki09789]

Regarding the Modern Arnis sidebar:
Most != All

I have heard many stories on various peoples ranks from many sides.
In the end, the heads of the organizations make the rules.

If Remy revolked the rank, or didn't add the expiration dates, that was his option.
If he did, well, he made those rules.

Those who left the parent group gave up the right for that rank to be reconized, as they were no longer members of the organization.

It doesn't dimininsh their skills, just their right to wear rank, until such time as they can find another group to reconize them.

For example:
I have a blue belt.
A WMAA blue belt.
Can I goto the IMAF and be reconized as a blue there?
I haven't been on the floor in a while.
Is it still even valid?
How about if I quit?
Is it then?

Ranks expire, drop, or are revolked all the time.
1 group does not have to reconize anothers ranks.
Skill however can only be lost, nor revolked.
I lose my skill by not using it, not working it, or through injury.
Saying "You are not a Black Belt" doesn't mean I lose the black belt skills...
just the right to claim that rank.

In the end, for me, rank is just a way to keep score. One also must know the scoring system in order to properly compare across different systems.

I look for skill, not rank in my teachers.
The sheepskin and sash is secondary.
My opinion. t's all.

Peace.

Bob,

Based on past posts it is pretty clear that I don't agree with this line. This mentallity implies that rank is "given" and not "earned" and that Rank is not symbollic of skill and knowledge but "gang colors and standing in your group" in essence.

I know that organizations do it. I know that they do it with some kind of reasoning, I just don't agree with it philosophically UNLESS the organization (like businesses/professional licensing or military organizations do) clearly and obviously states what constitutes the earning of rank outside of just demonstrating skill and knowledge. Since most martial arts ranks are almost exclusively based on skill/knowledge demonstration (much like passing a grade or degree/trade certification), once you earn it it is yours. Now, expiration dates means that YOU either 'earn it again' or you fail to meet standards. It doesn't mean that you have anything revoked (as in taken away) because essentially once the 'rank date' expires, you are taking a test for a new rank all over again - either you do pass or fail standards. I like the practice of expiration dates and such because it promotes quality standards BUT it is not the organization revoking anything, it is the person failing to earn (even if it is for a second, third time) a 'rank.'

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Paul,
I agree with you, and I disagree.

Let me tangent here.
I am an A+ certified hardware tech. That cert is a lifetime cert. I took the test, passed, and now until I die am an A+ tech. Even if the requirements change, I am still certified.

I hold a Windows 95 MCP (Microsoft Certified Professional) rank, now expired. Microsoft "End of Lifed" it a while back. I took the test, passed, but now that my 'rank' has been retired, I'm no longer considered an MCP by the issuing body (Microsoft). I still know what I knew....it just don't count no mo.

If I earned a blackbelt in 1990, sat on my *** eating cheetos for the last 14 years....
Am I still a blackbelt?

I may have the paper...but the skills would have gone.

Put another way....
would you want to undergo heart surgery from a surgeon who was once the 'best' but hadn't logged any OR time in 5 years?

or get in a plane flown by a pilot who hadn't logged any air miles in the last year?

I see this as all the same thing.
The paper means nothing.
It's the skill level at that time that counts.


The only reason I got the A+ and the MCP was to 'validate' my skill in the eyes of employers. I could right now pass another dozen industry certs if I cared to...but, I don't. The papers to me are meaningless.
Just like a rank cert.
It's just a way to keep score.
Or, a way to say "I completed the study course", like a high school diploma.
It doesn't mean you really learned or more importantly retained, anything.

It's that day-to-day use and exploration that counts.

 

[loki09789]

I guess the point is what the rank stands for or means. If it is a sign of legitimacy and a ticket to the clubhouse then it can be taken away. Either fairly or unfairly, based on clear or ambiguous, poorly outlined expectations.

If it is a roadsign of accomplishment and proof of acceptable knowledge and skill that moment, that accomplishment can not be taken away, and therefore nor can the rank.

Organizations, at least in Martial arts, are not requirements to legally open up a shop, so the political 'clubhouse' mentallity really means diddly squat in the grand scheme of things. Sure it might mean 'insider status' or something but there are some very successful stand alone schools that are not affiliated with any organization being run by people with 'frozen' rank because they don't have a senior or a group that can promote them. Like you said, the skill is what counts, but he/she can still use their last rank earned (because they own that accomplishment NOT the organization).

If you were awarded a rank under organization Mickey Mouse and they kicked you out/'revoked' that rank, you still earned that rank. If you open up a martial arts shop and put on your bio that you earned said rank you are not being false. If someone checks with that organization, they can not say that he/she did not meet those standards, make that accomplishment or else they are being false. They can say that you are no longer a member of that organization or something along those lines but they can not take away what that rank means or deny that you made that accomplishment.

The confusion is that these organizational groups have NO REAL POWER to stop you from doing business. They are reputation builders, support networks and mutual admiration societies. You join them voluntarily and you can leave them voluntarily. If you leave, they can't stop you from practicing your art, teaching or running a school. You might have to modify certain market presentations and terminology to avoid copyright or trademark infringement but no one can stop you from running a 'Self Defense' or a "Karate" or "TKD" program as long as you don't use a trademark term like "ATA TKD" or "Modern Arnis" or "Taboada Balintawak" when you are no longer an active member. You have every right to list on your bio for qualifications to teach that you earned a Black Belt under that system though.

Until there is a professional licensing of Martial arts schools with standards that have to be met, any untrained person can throw up a shingle and run classes. Chances are it will die quickly, but the point is that it can be done.

I look at rank as a sign of personal accomplishment that is earned, owned and retained by the individual NOT as a reward or sign of recognition for political affiliation with a group. It is a metaphor for that skill that you mention, so if they can't take the skill they can't take the rank. Within the AMAA (American Modern Arnis Associates) they use a slogan of "Skill is rank" to make that point clear.

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

I.M.O.

If a teacher takes the rank away that somene worked hard for they can never take the knowledge away that was carved into this person through blood, sweat and tears of the years.
So I guess im saying it might be possible to take the physical belt color away but the knowledge is here to stay.......

The knowledge does not simply disappear when the rank is removed or taken away.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Let me add this:
Since it is -very- debatable how many folks stand for tests past 2nd degree....

What is the real "Skill" value of a 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th or even 9th dan?
What about a 10th?

I've heard the "time in" and "contributions to the arts" bit....How does that equate to things?


How about the people who 'mint their own'?

Would or should my "Martial Talk Black Belt" be seen as the same as a 'real' one?
How about if I can get 4 'notables' to sign off on it?

Rank and Skill are not the same.

Rank is a score card, a medal, an award. It can be given, taken, lost and thrown away.

Skill is a measure of ability, once learned, it can not be taken.
It can however, be lost.

Maybe if people would worry less about keeping score, and just work on self-improvement there wouldn't be so much crap in the arts.
Sadly, egos, etc. permeate all things, this included.

Now, if y'all will excuse me, I have to go write a check to some 'council" so they reconize my 'art' of 'Talkie-do', so I can start charging y'all for those 'ranks' that show up.

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

Let me add this:
Since it is -very- debatable how many folks stand for tests past 2nd degree....

What is the real "Skill" value of a 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th or even 9th dan?
What about a 10th?

I've heard the "time in" and "contributions to the arts" bit....How does that equate to things?


How about the people who 'mint their own'?

Would or should my "Martial Talk Black Belt" be seen as the same as a 'real' one?
How about if I can get 4 'notables' to sign off on it?

Rank and Skill are not the same.

Rank is a score card, a medal, an award. It can be given, taken, lost and thrown away.

Skill is a measure of ability, once learned, it can not be taken.
It can however, be lost.

Maybe if people would worry less about keeping score, and just work on self-improvement there wouldn't be so much crap in the arts.
Sadly, egos, etc. permeate all things, this included.

Now, if y'all will excuse me, I have to go write a check to some 'council" so they reconize my 'art' of 'Talkie-do', so I can start charging y'all for those 'ranks' that show up.

Very well put.
I also wonder how many people think Bruce Lee was a great martial artist and worthy of a 10th degree ?
I think he was one of the greatest, but wait he never had a black belt. Does that make him any less of the great man he was ? I don't think so.

I wonder how many people out there are really legit. I have found a few on the web that were advertising their school but when you look at their credentials they never went very high in rank but they have a 10th deg in their system.

I guess the proof is in the pudding as they say. Your skill and ability will eventually speak for itself whether you are a white belt with many shades of gray or a 10th deg black belt.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Paul,

No disrespect yet I am confused.

I guess the point is what the rank stands for or means. If it is a sign of legitimacy and a ticket to the clubhouse then it can be taken away. Either fairly or unfairly, based on clear or ambiguous, poorly outlined expectations.

Where is this statment different from what I and others have said? Only different word are being used. The meaning and intent are the same. The knowledge cannot be removed, the recognition can be.

If it is a roadsign of accomplishment and proof of acceptable knowledge and skill that moment, that accomplishment can not be taken away, and therefore nor can the rank.

I disagree, it can be taken away. As you state below, it can be stated the person X did pass have the rank of Y on a given date. Yet, as of a new date, no association or recognition of rank is noted.

Organizations, at least in Martial arts, are not requirements to legally open up a shop, so the political 'clubhouse' mentallity really means diddly squat in the grand scheme of things. Sure it might mean 'insider status' or something but there are some very successful stand alone schools that are not affiliated with any organization being run by people with 'frozen' rank because they don't have a senior or a group that can promote them. Like you said, the skill is what counts, but he/she can still use their last rank earned (because they own that accomplishment NOT the organization).

True, I could open op a CMA school never having had studied CMA other than from Bruce Lee in the Movies. And, Yes the skill is important, and there are independants with frozen rank. Yet, when was the last show down betwen masters at high noon? In this litigious society, it just does not happen. So, my skill at teaching and my students skills are also important. Correct? As to using the last earned Rank, I think they can use it in an honest manner. If they state I obtained a Xth degree from Y association on Z date. And if asked, which no one ever does, is it current, or are you still associated with Y? Then you reply honestly and tell them no. Or that Organization Y does not recognize my rank. In the long run honesty and integrity with this skill people talk about, will let everyone know who is who.

If you were awarded a rank under organization Mickey Mouse and they kicked you out/'revoked' that rank, you still earned that rank. If you open up a martial arts shop and put on your bio that you earned said rank you are not being false. If someone checks with that organization, they can not say that he/she did not meet those standards, make that accomplishment or else they are being false. They can say that you are no longer a member of that organization or something along those lines but they can not take away what that rank means or deny that you made that accomplishment.

I think a person should state that yes I was a Mouseketeer of the 4th order on this date. All ties to the Mickey Mouse associatation were severed on this date. I agree they cannot take away the skill, nor the fact that you had rank at one time. The person did earn it. The also could have had it revoked.

The confusion is that these organizational groups have NO REAL POWER to stop you from doing business. They are reputation builders, support networks and mutual admiration societies. You join them voluntarily and you can leave them voluntarily. If you leave, they can't stop you from practicing your art, teaching or running a school. You might have to modify certain market presentations and terminology to avoid copyright or trademark infringement but no one can stop you from running a 'Self Defense' or a "Karate" or "TKD" program as long as you don't use a trademark term like "ATA TKD" or "Modern Arnis" or "Taboada Balintawak" when you are no longer an active member. You have every right to list on your bio for qualifications to teach that you earned a Black Belt under that system though.

I agree 110%, with he addition of what I said above, about being honest and not misleading your students. Tell them where you stand, let them decide if your skill is somethign they truly wish to learn.

Until there is a professional licensing of Martial arts schools with standards that have to be met, any untrained person can throw up a shingle and run classes. Chances are it will die quickly, but the point is that it can be done.

Yes, it can be done. Anyone can do it. And your state tried to create legislation which requried a person to be 3rd degree before opening a school and to pass a test hosted by a committee of Masters from different arts. the logistics would just not work out. In my humble opinion.

I look at rank as a sign of personal accomplishment that is earned, owned and retained by the individual NOT as a reward or sign of recognition for political affiliation with a group. It is a metaphor for that skill that you mention, so if they can't take the skill they can't take the rank. Within the AMAA (American Modern Arnis Associates) they use a slogan of "Skill is rank" to make that point clear.

I agree the rank is earned and owned by the individual. Yet, if a person gets there black belt and then leaves for 20 years, and makes claims of association with the organization, this is falsehood. If they have not practiced in thsoe twenty years they cannot hope to be good enough to pass the same requirements 20 years later.

Also, no disrespect to Tom Bolden, I saw those T-shirts, and the attitudes of the students, and it seem to me to just like any other organization out there. Yet, I have to ask would they recognize my skills? In particular since I am not a part of their group and do not do things exactly their way. I know you cannot speak for him. Just curious though.

:asian:

 

[Tgace]

Rich,

I may be wrong, but I think the general point hes trying to make is. Yes, an organization can "revoke" a persons "paper rank". But what is that revocation supposed to accomplish? If you desire to stay in the organization, it is an "administrative punishment" of sorts. If its meant to rein in a "rouge" instructor, I dont think it will make much of a difference unless it means a lot for that instructor to stay a part of the original organization.


Just IMHO...

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich,

I may be wrong, but I think the general point hes trying to make is. Yes, an organization can "revoke" a persons "paper rank". But what is that revocation supposed to accomplish? If you desire to stay in the organization, it is an "administrative punishment" of sorts. If its meant to rein in a "rouge" instructor, I dont think it will make much of a difference unless it means a lot for that instructor to stay a part of the original organization.


Just IMHO...

Tom et al,

And how is this different from what I and others have said? Yes rogue instructors and Adminsistrative punishments do work this way. I have also stated that you cannot take away the persons' skills either. Yet, I believe that an organization has the right to disassociate themselves from someone. Yes, tell the truth, that so and so did obtain a rank. They also lots all rank and association at this time as well. Do not change history and state they never had rank.

For example Tom, if you had a fellow officer who went bad, and took money from the bad guys, and also killed little children and women, and sold drugs, to kids, and also assualted those children, would not the police find it in thier best interest to disassociate themselves from this rogue cop? They do not deny he was employeed from this date to this date, yet he no longer has rank or a job with them, because of these incidents. The officer would still have his/her skills and firearms and working the streets et al. Yet, they would no longer be associated with that police department. Now, this does not stop them from going elsewhere and being a cop, unless they have a real criminal record, in which case then it would be a matter of public record for the new agency.

What if you had a student who was hiding the fact that they were on medication, and later in life stopped taking it, and would not seek help. Would you not if asked, tell people that this person had changed or stopped taking their meds? And that you no longer have any association with them? Yes, the student could still go out and teach. I never said that the could not. Integrity would satate they should not, yet if they had integrity most likely they would not be the topic of rank being revoked. (* Unless it was petty polictics *)

Just my opinions. It almost seems like Paul is trying to get somewhere with this, and I cannot see where. Hence, my confusion.

:asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I'm not sure where this is going either..... it seems we all agree on most points, yet are still arguing them??

Could someone list the points of contention that still remain?

 

[Tgace]

Well, your Police analogy dosent really equate to MA rank. You can revoke a persons LEO status and that will effectively keep him from being able to work, at least in the state of issue. If another agency sees fit to hire and re-cert that person I guess they could but it wouldnt be likely.

MA rank is different in that it really has no binding "power" beyond the organization from which it was issued....

Im not disagreeing with you or anybody else as far as I can see.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Well, your Police analogy dosent really equate to MA rank. You can revoke a persons LEO status and that will effectively keep him from being able to work, at least in the state of issue. If another agency sees fit to hire and re-cert that person I guess they could but it wouldnt be likely.

MA rank is different in that it really has no binding "power" beyond the organization from which it was issued....

Im not disagreeing with you or anybody else as far as I can see.

Tom, The Police officer analogy was not to be able to get work elsewhere only. It was to show how an organization would wish to no longer have association with an individual.

Let me restate what you wrote:
MA rank is different in that it really has no binding "power" beyond the organization from which it was issued....

If it has no binding power from the organization in which it was issued then, the organization has the right to revoke the rank. There is nothing binding on the individual to stop them from going elsewhere with another group or by themselves. The only binding is the individual to the organization and the organization to the individual. This can be severed for just about any reason.

 

[Tgace]

Tom, The Police officer analogy was not to be able to get work elsewhere only. It was to show how an organization would wish to no longer have association with an individual.

Let me restate what you wrote:
MA rank is different in that it really has no binding "power" beyond the organization from which it was issued....

If it has no binding power from the organization in which it was issued then, the organization has the right to revoke the rank. There is nothing binding on the individual to stop them from going elsewhere with another group or by themselves. The only binding is the individual to the organization and the organization to the individual. This can be severed for just about any reason.

Yes, I agree with that.