Is Rank Revokable?

[pesilat]

Originally posted by CHUNNER
I do not think a period of inactivity or changing organisations is justification for reduction in grade.

I have actually seen this happen where a Shodan in wado ryu had to take two years off training because of a life threatening kidney disease. He re-started training under a different governing body and was reduced in rank to 1st kyu. I have always thought this was a disgrace.

I've seen this thought (new organization) pop up a couple of times in this thread.

To me, this makes perfect sense. If I go train in a new organization (i.e.: at a different school), and the head of it doesn't think my skill/ability is up to par with their standards for my rank, then I would fully expect to be given the rank that they feel I perform at.

In the case you mention, I would disagree. I think some leeway should be granted for the extenuating circumstances. Someone who's been unable to train for a couple of years due to reasons beyond their control has to be expected to lose some sharpness/crispness. Personally, if I were in charge of the org. he transferred to, then I'd give him a grace period. I'd explain that, currently, he doesn't meet our requirements for 1st Dan. That normally, we'd re-rank him at 1st Kyu because that's where we think he is by our standards. But due to extenuating circumstances, we'll leave him at 1st Dan, but he has 6 months or a year to resharpen his material. Then we'd reevaluate.

Should his rank be acknowledged? Absolutely. But if he's joining the organization and his material isn't up to par for the organization's requirements, then I see no problem with a drop in rank. After all, if he joins the org. then he's going to be representing the org. If he's representing it as a BB but doesn't have the qualifications that they expect from their BBs then he won't be representing the org. well.

It wouldn't be a "demotion" of rank, really. Because if he'd been with the org. the whole time he'd either meet their standards and be a 1st Dan by now, or he'd still be a 1st Kyu.

But if someone is representing me when they visit other schools or events, then I want to make sure that the person's skill is up to snuff so I can rely on him to represent me (and my org.) well.

If, however, he's not joining the org., then there shouldn't be an issue. His rank should be acknowledged and recognized, regardless of whether they think he really exhibits that level of skill/ability.

Mike

 

[lucifersdad]

is rank removable?
i think that although once a dan grade always a dan grade the authority, responsibilty and benefits that come with being a senior grade are revokable.
so what if a govening body takes away a bit of cotton or silk, as my instructor told me when i was down-graded, "its not wot you wear round your waist, its what you wear in your heart."
i think that pretty much says it all.

 

[Kope]

Originally posted by pesilat
Rank isn't really a representation of skill, per se. It's an official recognition of achievement.

I agree with this completely. Which is why it can not be revokable under any circumstances. An achievement is a matter of historical fact. The rank is nothing more than the acknowledgement of that fact.

Earning a rank merely means that on such-and-such a date someone met the criteria. That's a matter of historical record. We can't change history just 'cause we decided we didn't like a person or their actions.

Disassociate someone, fine. But you can't take rank away. Rank is not a thing that is possessed, it's an official recognition of achievement - that achievement doesn't magically not have happened just 'cuase.

 

[gman]

Rank shouldn't be taken away. Rank is something that has been awarded based on study and practice. If you get a college degree and then do not work in the field of your study they don't take away your BS and give you an AA. If you return to your study than you should be expected to relearn any knowlede you have forgotten. But I think your position is the same none the less.

 

[Rob_Broad]

Rank is your position in a hierarchy, people are promote and demoted all the time in the military. Your rank is where you fit in the hierarchy of your style/art/system. Your belt level is a different matter it can not be revoke because they can not take away your knowledge.

 

[SRyuFighter]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad
Rank is your position in a hierarchy, people are promote and demoted all the time in the military. Your rank is where you fit in the hierarchy of your style/art/system. Your belt level is a different matter it can not be revoke because they can not take away your knowledge.

So what's the difference? At the place I train the Shodans are of higher rank than the lower belts. Greens are higher than whites, so on and so forth.

 

[moromoro]

your GM could always revoke your rank in japan a certificate called HAMON was given to Hatsumi sensei from Ueno sensei revoking and cancelling his grandmastership titles he recieved from Ueno sensei

 

[SRyuFighter]

Originally posted by moromoro
your GM could always revoke your rank in japan a certificate called HAMON was given to Hatsumi sensei from Ueno sensei revoking and cancelling his grandmastership titles he recieved from Ueno sensei

So he's not a Grandmaster? I'm just plain confused now.

 

[bdparsons]

skill is not.

Respects,
Bill Parsons

 

[moromoro]

So he's not a Grandmaster? I'm just plain confused now.

yes he is ueno sensei rovoked his rank because hatsumi studied with TAKAMATSU SENSEI the 33rd Soke so in turn hatsumi became the succesor of takamatsu and not of ueno

 

[SRyuFighter]

Oh ok thanks for clearing that up.

 

[moromoro]

no problem

 

[Shinzu]

unless the person totally disrespects their association, school, or system or causes harmfullness to others, i still stand by my opinion. rank is not revokable.

it shouldn't matter how long you are away. your rank is what it is.

 

[moromoro]

sometimes instructors give out ranks

and the student thinks he is that level but the instructor knows he is not

 

[Shinzu]

giving out rank for the wrong reason shames not only the instructors integrety, but also the association he is affiliated with. i wish there was some way we could all avoid this but there are too many crooked people in the world. sometimes it is left for the student to judge. hopefully he will know the difference between offered and earned.

 

[moromoro]

sometimes it is left for the student to judge. hopefully he will know the difference between offered and earned.

i agree

 

[loki09789]

I haven't read through the other responses so this may be redundent.

Rank should stand because it is based on what you did. But, I come from a Once a Marine, Always a Marine mentallity on 'rank.'

The distinction I would make would be on the revokable 'titles' that can be associated with authority or administrative positions.

"Senior Instructor"
"Forms Master"


Or other administrative or leadership titles that give the holder decision making/curriculum affecting powers. If the person has acted outside of a clear code of conduct or not carried out the duties well then they should have the title taken away so that it can be given to someone else.

Rank is like retirement to me. I left the military at rank X, therefore my rank stands. Now, title and authority should/can be revoked...with good reason.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Don't people lose rank in the military for screwing up?

 

[Kenpodoc]

Once you have been awarded a Blackbelt you will always have the blackbelt. That doesn't mean your any good, a blackbelt is just a piece of cloth unless you have the chops to back it up.

I have an MD. I will have an MD till the day I die. A state can revoke my license to practice but the MD is permanent. Just like a blackbelt, some MD's have the chops some don't,

Jeff

 

[OC Kid]

I didnt read the entire thread so I dont know if this was mentioned.

A person can/should have their rank pulled by a system for conduct unbecoming, Foolin around with students, be arrested for drugs, selling drugs to students ect picking fights and or deliberately hurting people and other things.

Does that mean they lose the knowledge or skill..No.

It does mean that their rank is no longer sanctioned by a governing body for obvious reasons.
Which is why governing bodies have their place.