Is Rank Revokable?

[Zujitsuka]

A belt is just a belt.

The man or woman makes the belt not the other way around. I'd rather be a white belt that fights like a black belt, than be a black belt that fights like a white belt. Like one of the Gracies said, "A belt only covers two inches of your ***. The rest is up to you."

Personally, I could care less about the color of my belt - it is my intention to train and keep seeking out new things until the day I die anyway. So either way, I'm always going to be a white belt.

Peace....

 

[Cruentus]

Your right....there are holes in my examples.

My University example doesn't fit every aspect of a belt ranking. Martial arts ranks aren't state endorsed, etc. Plus, of course in a University you can start where you left off, which I don't believe should be the case for M.A.. My example does fit the other aspects of what I had said however, mainly the points I was trying to illustrate.

Also...of course there is no guarantee that your belt rank will carry over from school to school, and you definatily risk starting from scratch. However, your black belt would still hold more leverage then an underbelt if it was the same system. I've seen many cases where the student and the instructor have made compromises, were the black belt student from the other school could wear his belt, but was required to retest for his current degree before testing for a higher rank, and so forth. It is also usually easier (at least it should be) for a Black Belt to excel in another martial arts altogether, making it easier to attain another black belt in that other martial art. My point was, that your black belt holds a lot more leverage then an underbelt in just about any situation you look at.

To me, I basically believe that there is a barrier, or "Chinese Wall" if you will between black belts and underbelts. Basically the underbelts are your "apprentices," who are subject to demotion, promotion, etc. Your "Knights" are your black belts. Does this illustration fit every aspect of the belt system in Martial arts, no it won't.

I don't know. If it sounds like I'm reaching here, it's because I am. The reason is that mainly, the belt system in Martial Arts is completely unique in and of itself. I can use examples to illustrate my points, but they will all fall short in one way or the other. The second part of my problem is that this is my way, and I really don't have or need a compelling arguement to back it up. And, I really don't care. I believe my way is right because of the results that can be derived from my way of thinking about rank; I feel that these results are better. I don't care if other people don't think it's "right."

My way is that the road to black belt is a journey. If you give up, take a break, vere off the correct path, etc., then you risk getting demoted, among other risks and trials on this journey. When you reach your first black belt, you are at the end of one journey, but at the beginning of another. That is what a black belt, to me, signifies: the end of one journey, a level of enlightenment or rebirth from the achievement, and the beginning of another journey. It signifies accomplishment as an apprentice, while opening up a new pathway to mastery. In your 1st journey you were subserviant to black belts; you looked to them for guidance, and you risked getting rebuked by them. This could mean a demotion in rank (in a very rare circumstance) by the head instructor. When you are a black belt, you now have many classmates who are under you, and who look to you for guidance. As a black belt you have achieved something that cannot be taken away, and new doors to greater experiences have been opened up to you. The consequence to that is with this black belt, you have great responsabilities to your art, to society, and to yourself. You have to own up to a lot more. You have new trials and tribulations, new things to master, and new things to learn. Really, your black belt is just a beginning. But, it is a new beginning that cannot be taken away.

This is my way. I think that "Black Belt" should be revered differently then any of the "under belts." This is how I teach my students, and this is how I treat my own personal rank regardless of the thought of my instructors. I take these things very seriously. If all instructors revered a black belt the same way I do, it is my opinion that they would be kicking out better quality students, and their students who recieved black belts would wear them with more respect, responsability, gratitude, and pride then people do today.

This is the way I grew up, and was taught. And this is the way I will teach, because when I give ANYONE a black belt, it is because I am sure that they are able to uphold the responsability. This is my way, wrong or right. If you want to follow a different way, then it's your livelyhood.

Now, if someone here on MT would like to enlighten us on some history behind belt ranking syestem in itself, then we can observe how the difference between "black belt" and "under belts" were treated in other cultures, in different times (mainly when "ranking" was first established in MA). I don't know enough history (nor do I have the time to research it), otherwise I could bring something forth of which we could make comparisons. I am very curious to learn how my way, the ways of today (which I think are different then my way), and the ways of the past hold up against each other. What are the consequences of each way of thought? If someone has any info, I think it would add to the discussion greatly.

As for those who say "rank doesn't matter," I also uphold that position to a degree. Your skill level is the bottom line. However, it would be nice if a rank really could reflect achievement in the combat arts. Unfortunatily with the way it is taken for granted, it usually doesn't, now a days.



:asian:

 

[Master of Blades]

Nope, it shouldnt be revoked.......I still like to believe that I can trust other MAists and if someone comes to the class with a Belt and asks for it to be revoked then Ok, I'll think about it, but if there not up to standard just make them do stuff till they are. On the basis of the students belt being revoked in the same school then that is stupid, you gave him the belt, your own fault :asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

I don't think its right to revoke rank at all except if they said something along the lines of you are no longer a ## Dan in the #### Federation. Period. MA politics should not get in the way of schools livelyhood.

Disassociation is acceptable and expected but spreading more dirt in the MA world is just more negativity for us all.

 

[Michael Billings]

Well said Paul, the only thing I would add is that you never "give" anyone a black belt ... they earn it.

Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com

 

[Rich Parsons]

I think YES it can be revoked! WIth a reason.

Are they in your Organization? Are yo kicking them out of the organization?

If so then Yes,

If just to get even with someone then Nope!

:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
I think YES it can be revoked! WIth a reason.

Are they in your Organization? Are yo kicking them out of the organization?

If so then Yes,

If just to get even with someone then Nope!

:asian:

Assuming someones rank is revoked and they were at an instructor level. What now? Are they a "legit" instructor or not?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by akja
Assuming someones rank is revoked and they were at an instructor level. What now? Are they a "legit" instructor or not?

In that Art NOPE!

Can they go to a new town and Lie, YES!.

Will they still have their Certifiactes. Most likely.

Yet I could strap a BB on call my self Grand Poh Bah of "Tie this one one" or some other rank of this art, and if I really did have something to offer, I would and could teach it. People would listen.

Every Art had to start somewhere.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
In that Art NOPE!

Can they go to a new town and Lie, YES!.

Will they still have their Certifiactes. Most likely.

Yet I could strap a BB on call my self Grand Poh Bah of "Tie this one one" or some other rank of this art, and if I really did have something to offer, I would and could teach it. People would listen.

Every Art had to start somewhere.

Thats the part that I don't agree with. Blackballed from a system, OK, but if I pay you, what I receive day by day becomes mine to do as I choose fit.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by akja
Thats the part that I don't agree with. Blackballed from a system, OK, but if I pay you, what I receive day by day becomes mine to do as I choose fit.

I agree, what you do day to day is fine, as long as what you do does not affect the organization. It should not cause the organization to loose money or loose face or reputation. IF so, the head of the organization should be able to kick you out. NAd say you have no rank.

The person kicked out, can then say I am in a differnt organization and still have the same rank.

I think we are closer than you may think
:asian:

 

[D.Cobb]

Where I train, it's not just about the techniques.
Each belt or rank shows that you have progressed, not just in your martial arts knowledge, but also as a person......

When you reach black belt in our school, it means you have put in the time and more importantly effort. It also means you are a person of character. If you should do something to show that this is not the case, then you will either be demoted or asked to leave, depending on the severity of what you have done.

If any of us attend a grading and do not put in, we will be demoted on the day, and have to regain rank at the next grading.
This applies to everyone above yellow belt.

Also within the school, there are some of us that are expected to go that little bit further, for what ever reason. We are seen to be the next generation of instructors, and our Senseii asks a lot from us. However, it is not what he asks that is important, it is what we are prepared to give.

So if I am prepared to show commitment to my training, and to push myself to the point of collapse on grading days, and prepared to help anyone that needs it, and then get my black belt, because I have earned it, then after receiving it, I turn around and just train 1 day a week, and go to grading days but don't put in, and dont try to help anyone because I couldn't be bothered, then yes I should lose my rank.

True, my knowledge stays with me, but the rank means more than that. It testifies to my character.

--Dave

:asian:

 

[sweeper]

I would say rank witin an organisation is revokable but your history should not be. deleting all records like you were never there is just wrong, if a student goes an asks if X instructortrainedin Y stystem and the answer from Y system is "no" when instructor X actualy did, it's a lfat out lie.

but my view on the matter is that rank in martial art is genneral only valid within a given organisation, and if an organisation desides that you should be kickicked out than in a sence your rank is void, however you still did have the rank at one time and you of course hae all the knowledge.. so I think if you achived X rank in Y style there is nothing wrong with saying you are X rank even if you have left Y style, unless the situation arises that you should not have recieved the rank in the first place (it comes out a year latter you bribed your instructor).

 

[ace]

But i do not Agree with it.
If a person has earned something it's theres
Nothing can change the Fact that they once erned it.

Now a Day's i am seeing experation dates on Black Belt Certifacites as if it were spoiled Milk.

It seems to me that polotics continue to
creep into the Martial Arts World.

Now as for outcasting an individual Who may have discrased
The organization That he/she may have been apart off.
Is something else. But i don't think That the rank they earned
can be taken away other wise it never existed.

Just my Personal thoughts.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Once a person recieves the rank it is theirs. No matter what anyone says it can not be taken back. You may say the person no longer is part of your organisation, or you no longer acknowledge the rank, but the fact remains they where awarded it .
The only way is if a persons rank is probationary. If they screw up or don't get through the probationary period then they do nmot have the rank. They also where never given that rank and all the papers that go with it.

 

[ace]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
There seems to be alot of focus when dealing with a "black belt". What about other ranks? A person with an orange belt worked as hard for that rank given the "time and expectations" as a black belt did. Should a lower rank be demoted for something like being away for a while, and a black belt not be demoted for the same thing? Are lower ranking people less insignificant than black belts?

Absolutely Not The Belt Cover only 2 inches of the
A$$ The rest is up to U.

I know of a hand full of Lower Belts That
Would Give most Black Belts a Run for there Money.

 

[jeffkyle]

Paul,

You are right and you can and will do things how you would like, we all can. I don't have a problem with that. I know exactly how you feel about it as I have been in that environment before. I agree with most of it, but not all.

But all of what you said doesnt' seem to answer my question. It doesn't really matter though, I was just throwing it out there for piece of mind and discussion.

I merely believe in fair treatment, if possible, to ALL human beings, considering the situation of course, regardless of rank.

 

[Shinzu]

i don't feel that it can be revoked either. the person has the knowledge...period. i feel this way for colored belts too. the reason why i say this is because i was there. i quit and went back, quit and went back. it took me some time to regain all the knowledge, but i felt that i earned the rank no matter what.

different people will have different view, and different instructors will have different policies. all i know is that i wouldn't take away what someone eared, no matter where they earned it. but i would hold them there until they could prove to me that they deserved to be advanced (if needed).

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
I agree, what you do day to day is fine, as long as what you do does not affect the organization. It should not cause the organization to loose money or loose face or reputation. IF so, the head of the organization should be able to kick you out. NAd say you have no rank.

The person kicked out, can then say I am in a differnt organization and still have the same rank.

I think we are closer than you may think
:asian:

Yes I think we are. I left as a brown belt and because of my experience in Karate and the fact he I continued to train was able to start as a brown a couple of other Karate system. But I was not booted though. and my brown belt did not carry over to the arts that were to differant and I had to start oiver in Jun Fan Gung-Fu and Jujitsu.:asian:

 

[Rob_Broad]

Rank may be revocable but the knowledge is not.

 

[James Kovacich]

I also have noticed that I am not the only one here that thinks the way I do as far as my opinion and others opinions are not that far away either.