Is it possible to be good at wing chun...

[LFJ]

Effective hitting is not about seeing. It is about expecting. The VT training methodology empasises this above all else.

Expecting? Like anticipating? You'll have to explain further. I don't agree.

And use of gloves enforces a boxing style body movement and power generation.

No, it doesn't. You must just not be very good.

A good example of evidence for the detrimental effect of constant gloved training is the wing chun of Alan Orr's fight team. Do you prefer your wing chun to look this way?

You obviously care more about what you look like than how effective you are. Considering they are one of the few Wing Chun groups actually knocking people out in professional MMA, I'd say I'd definitely prefer that over Jerry's runaway slap boxing you think is so great because he looks like something.

Obviously with gloves on VT is a far from optimal way of fighting and will get you destroyed in the ring pretty quickly (try gloved sparring with decent boxers using VT and see what happens).

That's not true. I've done gloved sparring with decent proponents of various styles. Having gloves on never got me destroyed, and I can do the same thing with or without gloves. You probably just aren't very good. Something about putting gloves on makes you revert to your previous styles. You probably need more practice to ingrain your VT behaviors.

What is VT for do you think?

Hitting people. And I can do it just the same with or without gloves on. If light gloves change the way you move so drastically, you have not trained enough for your VT to not break down over even something as simple as having a little padding on your fists. You just need more practice.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Most would say VT is for self-defense, not sport. Of course that means different things to different people. I thought the following clips with Martin Austwick and Matt Easton were rather relevant. Martin is a HEMA enthusiast and instructor with special interest in English historical pugilism (bare knuckle). He believes that the switch to the use of gloves in boxing, both in training and competition, was largely responsible for the dramatic changes in the way boxers punch. In bare knuckle days fighters fought like this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/John_L._Sullivan_1898.jpg


Modern boxers fight more like this:
http://www.blackpressusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/box_g_mayweather_b1_300.jpg


So why did this change happen? Well here are some observations by Martin Austwick:

Anyway, I'm not about to go in for "full-contact. bare knuckle" training, but before jumping on a dogpile, it's worth noting that Guy B's ideas about the problems created by using gloves are not totally out in left field. Any thoughts?

How bare knuckle boxing differs from bare knuckle martial arts.
1:35 - 2:26
#1 martial arts punches are not the same as boxing punches
#2 Iron palm. Martial arts doe exercises that condition the hand and knuckles. Martal artists punch things like bricks, tiles, wood and concrete
#3 Hung Gar punches throw at the angle that he talks about, with minimum damage to the hand. The technique of the punches targets the soft and critical areas on the head
6:14 - vertical fist
#4 The vertical fist in martial arts is not thrown for the reasons he states which leads back to #1
#5 The keeping arms close to your body helps to generate more power and gives you a direct punch. Some fighting systems rotate the punch instead of letting it stay vertical
#6 In martial arts an elbow that sticks out becomes a target for a joint lock, arm break, or shoulder dislocation.

Here's a video of me LIGHT SPARRING with friends. None of the shots that they took from me could have been taking at 100% force, 100% Speed with 100% Technique bare knuckles.
1st video Hook lands behind the ear. Not a hand breaker had I punched with bare knuckles. Uppercut lands on the front of the face
2nd video Hook lands where the jaw connects. Notice how my fist isn't turned in the manner as shown in the bare knuckle video. I'm hitting with the same knuckles that you use to knock on a door. Again not a hand breaker had I punched with bare knuckles.
3rd Video vertical backfist thrown from the bottom target cheek bones, following shot modified Jow Ga basic punch targets where the Jaw connect. Again not a hand breaker.

There is no way that anyone can get hit with these type punches bare knuckles and not be seriously injured. This includes me.

This is for guy who spars at 100% bareknuckle.
If you are doing Wing Chun 100% full force then it's only the blocking and trapping that you are doing at full force.
If you are doing Wing Chun punches to the face or the body at full force then either your punches are significantly weak, your sparring partner is better than you and can successfully block anything you throw, or Wing Chun has weak punches. This is why I want to see where you are actually using 100% and how.

 

[geezer]

How bare knuckle boxing differs from bare knuckle martial arts.
1:35 - 2:26
#1 martial arts punches are not the same as boxing punches
#2 Iron palm. Martial arts doe exercises that condition the hand and knuckles. Martal artists punch things like bricks, tiles, wood and concrete
#3 Hung Gar punches throw at the angle that he talks about, with minimum damage to the hand. The technique of the punches targets the soft and critical areas on the head
6:14 - vertical fist
#4 The vertical fist in martial arts is not thrown for the reasons he states which leads back to #1
#5 The keeping arms close to your body helps to generate more power and gives you a direct punch. Some fighting systems rotate the punch instead of letting it stay vertical
#6 In martial arts an elbow that sticks out becomes a target for a joint lock, arm break, or shoulder dislocation.

Jow Ga: You make some good points. I didn't post those videos to take sides on old and unresolvable debates such as the merits of vertical vs. horizontal fists, and close vs. long range punching, etc. Instead I was posting to show that there are knowledgeable people such as Martin Austwick who hold that hand protection such as wraps and bulky gloves have altered the form of Western Pugilism in much the way Guy B maintains regarding WC.

BTW This is not an endorsement of Guy's extreme (IMO) belief in "full contact" bare-knuckle fighting as a training method. It's just acknowledging that some of his views about the dependence on gloves may have merit.

 

[geezer]

...No, it doesn't. You must just not be very good.
...You obviously care more about what you look like than how effective you are.

....You probably just aren't very good. Something about putting gloves on makes you revert to your previous styles. You probably need more practice to ingrain your VT behaviors.

...If light gloves change the way you move so drastically, you have not trained enough for your VT to not break down over even something as simple as having a little padding on your fists. You just need more practice.

OK, LFJ, I think we get the point. And you may be right, although as far as I know, none of us has ever seen Guy B. train or spar, or ever crossed bridges with him.

So instead of just repeating over and over that he must stink since he has some pretty extreme ideas, let's move on. Otherwise your remarks begin to look more like a personal grudge. Better to attack the position he posits than the person.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Jow Ga: You make some good points. I didn't post those videos to take sides on old and unresolvable debates such as the merits of vertical vs. horizontal fists, and close vs. long range punching, etc. Instead I was posting to show that there are knowledgeable people such as Martin Austwick who hold that hand protection such as wraps and bulky gloves have altered the form of Western Pugilism in much the way Guy B maintains regarding WC.

BTW This is not an endorsement of Guy's extreme (IMO) belief in "full contact" bare-knuckle fighting as a training method. It's just acknowledging that some of his views about the dependence on gloves may have merit.

I understand. The comments that I made were general in regards to bareknuckle boxing vs bareknuckle martial arts. Sorry about the confusion. The vertical vs. horizontal fist debate is not a concern for my school because we use both. Training with gloves off is how my school trains and it helps for a multiple reasons so that's not a big issue for me either. It's the 100% force that I want to see. Everyone doesn't have the same output of force at 100%, so to see this would be worth seeing if someone actually does this. I got a black eye from my friends punch which was about 5% of his power. Had he hit me 100% then my facial bone would have shattered.

 

[geezer]

... The vertical vs. horizontal fist debate is not a concern for my school because we use both. Training with gloves off is how my school trains and it helps for a multiple reasons so that's not a big issue for me either..

For the record, many branches of WC also use multiple hand positions, including the occasional horizontal fist. And, in our club, we also train bare fisted ...with very controlled contact and targeting. Like you, I have to wonder how Guy manages with bare fists and full contact.

But if he won't make a video, I guess it will just remain a mystery. Nothing worth getting worked up about. LFJ sometimes takes this stuff too seriously IMO. It's just the internet, after all. People all over making outrageous claims. You can pretty well tell who's for real and not. Me... I'm just another WC hobbyist, sitting on my backside and pounding on a keyboard!

 

[Danny T]

For the record, many branches of WC also use multiple hand positions, including the occasional horizontal fist.

Yep! Vertical to Horizontal and everything in between.
Everyone speaks of WC being a scientific and principle based training system utilizing concepts to fight; some then draw lines of specifics stating these are the only way. Some even speak of the pureness of their wc when wc itself has been modified in numerous ways over the years. While I would agree there are some specific actions in specific situations your application of the movements and structures may well be different to mine... and that is ok.

And, in our club, we also train bare fisted ...with very controlled contact and targeting.
Like you, I have to wonder how Guy manages with bare fists and full contact.

Having been involved in several bare knuckle fights in my younger years, in my experience the damage I sustained and inflected in some of them is not something I have ever wanted to do or have done to me in sparring. That's not to say I've never had busted lips, blacken eyes, nose blooded, or small nicks/cuts from sparring but never anything near the damage from full 100% contact sparring.
So I also am a bit intrigued with how Guy manages bare fist full contact sparring. ...just what is he referring to as full contact.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Geezer and Danny T.. I just wanted to say that I enjoy your posts in reference to Wing Chun. I had quite a few misconceptions about that fighting system and your comments here and in other discussion have given me a better understanding of what goes on in the world of Wing Chun.

 

[Jake104]

Gloves also damage the ability to acquire target, timing, distancing, power generation without gloves, and various other things. They are extremely bad for wing chun, which already has a training methodology that doesn't use gloves.

What's extremely bad for Wing Chun is lack of pressure testing the art. If you pressure test your WC bare knuckle then that's great and more power to you. If you think pressure testing the art is chi sao slap fighting, then I feel for you? Because that's fantasy.

As far as gloves hindering timing and targeting etc? I don't see it that way, but if it did, I'd embrace it and make it work regardless. In reality, fighting doesn't always offer a perfect environment to execute your Wing Chun. Chances are you'll need to adapt and accept whatever comes. So by saying you can't do this or that with gloves, is really saying you need a perfect eviorment for your WC to work?
IMO, whatever I can't do with my hands, I'll make work with the rest of my body. I don't fight hands and I don't fight with only my hands.

 

[LFJ]

I was posting to show that there are knowledgeable people such as Martin Austwick who hold that hand protection such as wraps and bulky gloves have altered the form of Western Pugilism in much the way Guy B maintains regarding WC.

I agree with that, and I also say bulky gloves get in the way and make our tight lines impossible to use. If one continued to spar with such gloves, in order to be effective they'd have to take wider lines and abandon much of the VT strategy.

Here I'm referring to my particular lineage/system of VT. Alan Orr's group uses bulky gloves and it works fine with their version of Wing Chun. They still use their body methods and punching concepts effectively, although it may be quite different from other versions of Wing Chun. There's nothing wrong with that.

Guy b. finds that to be a bad thing because it doesn't look like his style. Well, they aren't doing the same style. They're doing CSLWC, and who cares what it looks like if it's knocking out professional fighters using their striking concepts? That's just a silly thing to get hung up about. Only a dreamer would care about that, not a fighter.

Better to attack the position he posits than the person.

I believe I did. There is really no reason light gloves should be such a detriment. He says it changes body mechanics and power generation, which I find absurd. That's like saying if I put a top hat on I'll start waddling around duck footed.

I can move and punch the same way with light gloves on as I can barehanded. If he can't, something is terribly wrong with his training.

 

[Jake104]

Sparring with gloves trains gloved striking. A good example of a wing chun group that trains all of the time with gloves is Alan Orr's group. Their wing chun reflects the gloved training.

Is that a bad thing? Like his WC or not Alan's guys and gals can fight. I bet they'd do just fine without gloves too.

This is where WC loses a lot of respect and credabilty with real fighters. They see internet threads like this one and think we are all a bunch of weirdo larpers, who believe we are deadly bare knuckle warriors.

 

[JowGaWolf]

...In reality, fighting doesn't always offer a perfect environment to execute your Wing Chun?

In the drills that I do at my school the students learn how to use Jow Ga from less than perfect situations. This helps us to not rely on one technique. For example, we do a drill where we are on the floor and we have to get back up quickly and follow up with some kind of technique. We position ourselves in off balanced positions where we have to regain control and follow up with some kind of kung fu technique. We do whatever we can to "destroy the perfect environment" (within reasonable safety). If I'm tying my shoe and someone pushes me over then I should know how to recover and follow up with a technique either while am close to the ground, half way standing up or standing up completely.

The goal is to be able to do Jow Ga no matter what position we are in. If it's winter and you have a big winter coat on then that big winter coat is going to have more effect on how you do your martial art than having gloves on. I broke my finger recently during sparring so now I get to learn how to be effective with Jow Ga only using one good hand and arm. My left hand and left arm are useless because of the broken finger. Grabbing or blocking with the left arm is out of the question. Ironcially Jow Ga actually has a one arm form, it's just that I'm not advanced enough to be taught that form.

 

[Jake104]

I agree with that, and I also say bulky gloves get in the way and make our tight lines impossible to use. If one continued to spar with such gloves, in order to be effective they'd have to take wider lines and abandon much of the VT strategy.

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe slight angling may allow for the "tight lines" to be less impossible? This is how keep my lines tight and WC strategies intact with boxing gloves.

 

[Jake104]

The goal is to be able to do Jow Ga no matter what position we are in

That should be the goal of all combative arts. Staying alive! Not the Bee Gees song!

 

[LFJ]

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe slight angling may allow for the "tight lines" to be less impossible? This is how keep my lines tight and WC strategies intact with boxing gloves.

What I meant by tight lines is that my hands would often be passing tightly over each other as they recycle and continue to strike. This in part helps to control the attack line, occupying space, preventing the opponent's recovery.

Bulky boxing gloves would cause me to run into my own gloves and tangle myself up. To get around this, I'd have to get around my own hands, opening up my lines and losing some of the control of space, making gaps for the opponent to possibly recover and interrupt me instead. Bad things.

Light gloves that basically just pad the knuckles don't get in the way like this, and they certainly don't change my power generation or body mechanics, as bizarre as that idea is.

 

[Phobius]

Actually gloves does change one parameter in instances of sparring.

With gloves one may put a lot mot strength into a punch and need to compensate less for hitting bones. Such a power generation is not possible in bare knuckle fighting if there is ever a wish of not injuring yourself unexpectedly. This is not even mentioning the fact that people feel it possible to hit even harder without hurting their opponent while still winning the fight quicker.

 

[Punchy]

That should be the goal of all combative arts. Staying alive! Not the Bee Gees song!

You put that @#$% song in my head....I now return the favor

 

[JowGaWolf]

You put that @#$% song in my head....I now return the favor

lol classic.

 

[guy b.]

Guy b. finds that to be a bad thing because it doesn't look like his style.

No, it is because it doesn't work like wing chun. It is a different thing.

That's not true. I've done gloved sparring with decent proponents of various styles. Having gloves on never got me destroyed

Have you sparred wing chun hands against a decent western pro boxer or a high level amateur? Taking the Kurth vids as an example of something you find admirable, do you think that approach will work in a boxing match against a competent opponent?

they certainly don't change my power generation or body mechanics

Protection (gloves or headgear) increases contact time, which reduces impulse. You need to compensate for this if you are wearing gloves, which is why gloved boxing hits in the way it does today rather than as boxers used to hit before gloves. You can see exactly the same thing in (for example) Alan Orr's wing chun vs some other approaches. Gloves and protection absolutely do change body mechanic. You can see it happening in some of Sean's and Kurth's clips on the other site if you look carefully.

Hitting people

Hitting people in what context?

Look, I am happy to show you what I mean because I am obviously not communicating it very well here. I travel around quite a bit and should be able to come to your class to demo if you would like. Are you in Europe?

 

[geezer]

. I travel around quite a bit and should be able to come to your class to demo if you would like. Are you in Europe?

If you ever get out to Arizona, look me up. JP, Jake and Joy (Vajramusdi) also live in this area. And you could go see the Grand Canyon and hug a cactus.

Otherwise, I'd still like to talk you into making a video. If like me you are not good at that stuff, maybe one of your mates is tech savvy and can help.