Is it possible to be good at wing chun...

[Vajramusti]

Yeah JP. Nobody's really arguing with Guy here. I think he hasn't quite adjusted to the more laid-back atmosphere here.

@Guy, I've never made a video for youtube because I don't even know how too, and because I don't consider myself anything special. But it can't be that hard to do considering all the idiots who do post stuff.

You really should put up a video titled Bare-knuckle Full Contact Wing Chun. I'm sure you'd get a lot of hits! (badda-bum) No seriously, you'd get a lot of views and maybe make some money.

...And of course we'd all be impressed. Well, at least I would be. Not only for the guts it takes to go full out, but even more for the guts it takes to put yourself out there for people to see.

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A contrary but orthodox wing chun opinion: sparring with gloves is not the best way to train with a wing chun approach. Must people I see doing chi sao
could use better guidance in their chi sao. Lots of GOOD chisao and lop sao- with footwork- stepping and kicking is a good way for preparing. Was good enough for my sifu, sihings and me in real encounters. There are of course non wing chun ways.Depends on how you wan to train.

 

[geezer]

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A contrary but orthodox wing chun opinion: sparring with gloves is not the best way to train with a wing chun approach. Must people I see doing chi sao
could use better guidance in their chi sao. Lots of GOOD chisao and lop sao- with footwork- stepping and kicking is a good way for preparing. Was good enough for my sifu, sihings and me in real encounters. There are of course non wing chun ways.Depends on how you wan to train.

Actually, what you say works for me, Joy. Still, there's gotta be plenty of entertainment value in watching Guy and his mates beat each other up.

 

[wckf92]

...Depends on how you wan to train.

Awesome statement.

 

[wckf92]

Difficult to do so in this day and age.

Yeah no doubt...I agree. These days...probably get arrested or whatever. Times change.
Hence in these modern, dare I say 'civilized' times, we need extremely intense and all-out pressure testing to get close to the stress and chaotic nature as we can. Obviously nothing replaces the real thing...but random / unscripted hardcore training and situation-based scenarios help.
Lots of "McKwoon's" out there in WC-Land...busy building false sense of securities in the student population.

 

[wckf92]

1. Were the founders and your elders in wing chun competent fighters?
2. If they were, how did they get that way?

1. Yep...at least that is what I've heard and read
2. Supposedly through field-testing what they had learned in class out on the streets and alleys...

 

[Argus]

I accidentally posted this in the Pole-form thread, but intended to post it here:

Here we go.

I thought this would be relevant:

Geez, all of my posts have something to do with HEMA lately.

 

[guy b.]

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A contrary but orthodox wing chun opinion: sparring with gloves is not the best way to train with a wing chun approach. Must people I see doing chi sao
could use better guidance in their chi sao. Lots of GOOD chisao and lop sao- with footwork- stepping and kicking is a good way for preparing. Was good enough for my sifu, sihings and me in real encounters. There are of course non wing chun ways.Depends on how you wan to train.

I agree. Sparring with gloves is not the best way to train if you are training wing chun.

Wing chun was created at a time when nobody sparred with gloves at all. If you rate it as a method, and rate the skills of those who created it and who taught your teachers, teachers, teacher...etc, then why would you replace the methods they created with something different?

Training wing chun via a gloved sparring methodology is in a way a denial of the effectiveness and the method of wing chun.

 

[guy b.]

Don't think they used gloves much back in the 17-1800s when this stuff was getting made, so it's possible.

However, part of making it so that you fulfill your potential is avoiding injury. Gloves and protective gear are just tools to do that. I really don't understand the OP's hangups about it.

Why would you need these tools? Does the use of these tools make the current generation of wing chun better than any that came before them? Or not?

 

[guy b.]

For those who are asking, here is my rationale for no gloved sparring in wing chun, from another thread:

I happen to think that training with headgear (and body shields) is detrimental. Many conventional boxers, never mind wing chun people, agree with me. It blatantly throws off timing and targeting.

I also happen to think that training with gloves is detrimental for the same reason- why would it not be after all?

Another issue with protected sparring is that it encourages a sports sparring mindset, moving in and out, no rush, plenty of time, feeling each other out, i.e. not a fight. This is anathema to wing chun. I want to train for fighting, not for ring sports.

The difficult truth is that wing chun is not very good as a ring sport. It is quite predictable given the time and space to figure it out. But that is also its strength given no time and no space. Look at Alan Orr's wing chun- it barely resembles the martial art that most of us are doing. It has some power chain elements, some forward intent, but not much else. Even the stepping is gone- they move like boxers.

I train mostly bare handed light contact or controlled target full contact. As often as I can I train bare knuckle full contact. This is not an extra ordinary claim given what I believe. Videos posted of actual bare knuckle fights show that it generally isn't that damaging, bar some cuts, which is my experience of it. Maybe I have just been lucky but until that changes I intend to continue doing it and advocating it to other people.

Let me ask you a question- do you think Yip Man and WSL got good at wing chun by donning boxing or mma gloves and slugging it out in training? If not then why should we do it? Or don't you think they were any good?

Wing chun is a self contained method that doesn't utilise gloved sparring. Given this, why would you take everything else that wing chun does on trust, but add gloved sparring to the method? Why train a system formulated at a time when gloved sparring wasn't done and (following to the logical conclusion) fighters were not as good as they are today?

 

[Danny T]

Why would you need these tools?

"However, part of making it so that you fulfill your potential is avoiding injury. Gloves and protective gear are just tools to do that."
The answer to your question is "avoiding injury".

Does the use of these tools make the current generation of wing chun better than any that came before them? Or not?

For some I'd say yes.
Just as today not everyone who trained wing chun in the yester years were great.
Maybe I'm delusional about my training and my students. I have some with excellent skills and mine are respectable. We train and practice bare knuckled but spar with safety equipment. We spar not just in rounds like a fight match but different type of street attack scenarios with full contact, throws, and take downs. We may not be to your standard of what a wing chun person should be but we can apply what we have from our wing chun training... But then maybe I'm just delusional.

 

[geezer]

Wing chun is a self contained method that doesn't utilise gloved sparring. Given this, why would you take everything else that wing chun does on trust, but add gloved sparring to the method?

There's really nothing to be gained comparing WC students today with those of Leung Jan's period. Societal conditions are completely different, as are the reasons people choose to train today.

Gloves are just another tool, and they have their pros and cons. Everything we do has to be subjected to a sort of cost-benefit analysis. With gloves for example, even compact "UFC" style gloves, there is some awkwardness and loss stick and control. But gloves and other protective gear allow students to engage each other with a higher level of contact with reasonable confidence that they won't be injured. It's not a simple matter of right or wrong. For some the trade-off is worth it. For others, it's not.

So if traditional, unprotected sparring is what benefits you best, Guy, that's great. I think that approach would not be so appealing to some others. By contrast using gloves, especially cumbersome boxing gloves with a boxing or MMA rule-set can lead to WC that looks an awful lot like Western boxing. And a lot of us don't find that completely satisfying either --regardless of it's effectiveness.

Like I said, each approach has its own problems. Sometimes trying a variety of approaches to training is more productive.

 

[guy b.]

By contrast using gloves, especially cumbersome boxing gloves with a boxing or MMA rule-set can lead to WC that looks an awful lot like Western boxing. And a lot of us don't find that completely satisfying either --regardless of it's effectiveness.

I think with gloves it is very difficult not to end up looking like a boxer. Boking after all is the training methodology utilising gloved sparring. Attempting to be good at gloved sparring with hands only evolves an approach that looks like boxing.

Wing chun is a different training methodology. Many people train wing chun with chi sau only, or chi sau and gor sau, doing very little or no full contact at all. I think this is a better option than gloved sparring if you wish to avoid hard contact but don't want to add anything to the wing chun training methodology from outside. Fighting with body punches and palms to face is another option with bare hands that is lower contact.

Like I said, each approach has its own problems. Sometimes trying a variety of approaches to training is more productive.

I guess I am a wing chun purist. I prefer the wing chun approach and don't like to tamper with it. I think it is a training method with a certain amount of genius involved in its creation.

 

[guy b.]

There's really nothing to be gained comparing WC students today with those of Leung Jan's period. Societal conditions are completely different, as are the reasons people choose to train today..

I think it is an interesting question for those who advocate changing the wing chun training methodology to consider. We don't need to go as far back as Leung Jan though. Yip man and those he taught didn't sprar with gloves. Were they effective at fighting? Or are we better now?

 

[JPinAZ]

While not in direct question to me I have some thoughts on this.

I agree. Sparring with gloves is not the best way to train if you are training wing chun.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

It's interesting you are now mixing 'sparring with gloves' and 'training wing chun'. You can do both - you can 'spar' with gloves (if you chose), while at the same time still 'train' (and/or spar) without them. Not everything is as black/white as you try to make them.

While I have no problem with anyone that chooses to spar full-force without gloves (as you claim), why are you so worried what other people do? Why are you so bothered/afraid that others use gloves in their training?

Wing chun was created at a time when nobody sparred with gloves at all.

Really? can you verify that?
I ask because I've seen some pretty old pictures of kung fu practitioners using gloves.
While I've seen images much older than this, here's some footage from the 30's.check out those strange, round things just past their wrists..

If you rate it as a method, and rate the skills of those who created it and who taught your teachers, teachers, teacher...etc, then why would you replace the methods they created with something different?

Who said anyone is replacing anything? Once again, I think you are just making assumption to build straw mans..

Training wing chun via a gloved sparring methodology is in a way a denial of the effectiveness and the method of wing chun.

Is this the effectiveness you are referring to? lol

Just because someone trains without gloves doesn't necessarily mean they have any skill afterwards. Can you prove the effectiveness of all of your barenuckle fighting you do, or should we take just your word for it?

To be blunt, who are you to tell other people that they are 'in denial' because they chose to use protection in their sparring? I think you need to tone it down a bit, as I don't think that type of higher-than-thou attitude is a great way to start off posting here...

 

[JowGaWolf]

Because of the nature of Kung Fu and how it works, I can't see full force contact sparring being possible. I can see certain techniques being done full contact but not many. A simple backfist to the face at full force without gloves (depending if power for that backfist is generated properly) can break the bone underneath the eye. I can't see a martial arts practitioner risking such damage for the sake of practicing. This type of practice will mean that you'll spend more time healing from injuries than actual practicing. In some cased the damage may mean the end of your dream to use martial arts.

Unlike bare knuckle boxing kung fu strikes are designed to specifically aim at vulnerable places. For example, in Jow Ga, I'm not just trying to hit someone in the head. The technique of my strike is designed to land in specific areas on the head. If I want to hit the back of someone's head then I use one technique design to do that. If I want to break facial bones on the front of the face then a use a completely different technique. When someone is punching at me, my goal may be to block and avoid the punch, while another technique would be design to attack the punch for the purpose of breaking the hand.

Instructors and Sifu's don't even do full force sparring of kung fu techniques. How would you do a full force neck break in sparring and then be ready to spar again in two weeks.

The video that JPinAZ posted doesn't even look like they were going full force.

 

[JPinAZ]

Haha, great points.
Apparently, guyb is sparring bareknuckle full force with head shots every other week, so he must be the very rare exception to physics and logic. Either the guys he trains with aren't very good so no one is getting injured, or he must have a great dental and medical plan and heals faster than most typical humans...

 

[wckf92]

Instructors and Sifu's don't even do full force sparring of kung fu techniques. How would you do a full force neck break in sparring and then be ready to spar again in two weeks.

Ummm.... how would you do an "half force neck break"?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Ummm.... how would you do an "half force neck break"?

A half force neck break would be fine, it doesn't completely break the neck lol.

After posting this, I though I better post this because I don't know who may have missed the joke since there are also some kids that come to this forum.:
I was joking because a half force neck break is just as bad, don't try it at home or in your school.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Ironically I got hit in the eye today at practice (from a bare fist). I have swelling under my eye right on the bone that's under my eye (zygomatic bone). My sparring partner pulled the punch so it didn't land with full force. It still hurts. There's no way in the world someone is going to go full force without gloves during training. We were training without gloves and I got hit with a fist because my partner did the drill wrong. Now I get to wait and see if it's going to turn into a black eye tomorrow.

 

[Punchy]

Now I get to wait and see if it's going to turn into a black eye tomorrow.

Let's hope so...there's nothing cooler than a big ol' shiner.