(Illegal) Immigrant day, and a new Anthem

[Don Roley]

You are assuming that both parties are equal. They are not. The difference in POWER makes a difference.

Class warfare. The employers are not forcing anyone at the point of a gun to work for them. They certainly are not going to Mexico to force folks to come to them and work for them. And the problems of Mexico are hardly what we pay taxes and such to deal with.

If these people want to come here to work for wages they agree to and do so legally I don't think many of us would have a problem. But the system is such that the jobs they are qualified for are not worthy of being paid the wages that American laws demand. People want to work at them, the goverment won't let them. By saying that we are defending the workers, we are cutting off a whole lot of people that want to come here to improve themselves but can't do so legally. And of course all the problems that come with their illegal status as well.

They risk death and worse on the job in order to squeak by and hopefully feed their children. Would you do any different, Don, if you lived in an area where the options were starvation for you and your family or immigrating illegally to a foreign country to send home a meager wage for as long as your body can handle the terrible working conditions? If I had to, I would do that...but that doesn't mean that I think it is a good thing. And I think that society should do everything it can so people aren't faced with such a terrible life. That is what it means to be a progressive.

So we either step in and take care of Mexico's problems or we cut these people off from a way of feeding their children in the name of being compassionate.

 

[Makalakumu]

Class warfare.

A difference in power exists whether you choose to believe it or not.

The employers are not forcing anyone at the point of a gun to work for them. They certainly are not going to Mexico to force folks to come to them and work for them.

If you were a biologist, you would understand this in the terms of "environmental" pressure. The environment can force individuals of a species to do things that it needs to do in order to survive. Even if those things are terrible things. The environment, in this case, was built by things like free trade, globalization, and laissez faire economic policies.

 

[Carol]

deport them all, build a wall, fine the living hell out of companies using them to fund the upkeep of the wall. Say, $1mil per violation.

We're paying $3 a gal for gas. $3 for a head of lettuce is around the corner either way.

I'll pay $3 for lettuce if it means that Salem Hospital doesn't go bankrupt.

 

[Don Roley]

If you were a biologist, you would understand this in the terms of "environmental" pressure. The environment can force individuals of a species to do things that it needs to do in order to survive. Even if those things are terrible things. The environment, in this case, was built by things like free trade, globalization, and laissez faire economic policies.

Are you trying to say that I should just give up trying to debate you because you have some sort of superior insight into the matter because you are a biologist? Do you honestly think I can't understand a simple principle like enviromental pressure? It sounds to me like you are trying to use the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy with you as the authority just like you have in other threads.

I think I should warn you that I really dislike it when someone can't debate a point and tries that tactic. Being sarcastic is the least of the things I can do if you continue to try it. Oh, and have you ever lived and worked in another country, or do you work outside of a goverment job? If not, then I have insights you don't.

And instead of laissez faire economics, globalization and such, you should subsitute the words "faeries" because you can't show how one leads to the other any more than you can show how faeries cause the the poverty problems these folks are fleeing. These people are not coming from places where the goverment leaves folks alone.

Things are pretty bad in the countries these folks come from. The goverment can pretty much push you around and you ahve to pay them off to get them to leave you alone. But that is not America's problem. Why on earth do these folks flee that type of situation and then run around in protest in their adopted countries flying their old nations flags????? If they come here to seek a better, American life, then why are they trying to sing in the language of another country????

 

[Lisa]

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[mantis]

Right, that means anyone who wants to sneak in can, anyone who wants to steal free medical care can, anyone who wants to use educational systems, roads, transportation systems without helping to pay for them can....... I guess us law abiding, tax paying citizens are the dopes then.....anyone got info on how to renounce your citizenship?

7sm

i see your point there 7sm
but in a way they are paying too. yes, they do not pay directly and explicitly, but they do get paid less than others due to their circumstances. bottom line is as long as money is flowing between companies and government then we're okay. if those illegal immigrants did not add value, believe me, governments wouldnt be cool with them sneaking in.

it's hard for me to argue and defend illegal immigration, and in fact i do not agree with it in the first place. but what do we do what those who are already inside?

do not think about this emotionally. this is america, not france! think income - outcome. if this is a good deal then keep them, if not then be strict enough on immigration.

i was wondering if they can keep the mexicans and get rid of the persians instead... i wish that's possible (im only kidding..)

 

[Makalakumu]

Are you trying to say that I should just give up trying to debate you because you have some sort of superior insight into the matter because you are a biologist? Do you honestly think I can't understand a simple principle like enviromental pressure? It sounds to me like you are trying to use the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy with you as the authority just like you have in other threads.

I know that you can understand it and I didn't mean to come off as uppity. However, "environmental pressure" is something that I am very familiar with and it is something that describes this situation perfect. Much better then you "gun to the head" analogy. These people are doing what any other biologic organism tries to do...obtain enough energy to survive. There environments, for whatever reason, do not have enough energy to support them, so they come to a place that does have enough energy.

I think I should warn you that I really dislike it when someone can't debate a point and tries that tactic. Being sarcastic is the least of the things I can do if you continue to try it. Oh, and have you ever lived and worked in another country, or do you work outside of a goverment job? If not, then I have insights you don't.

Yes, I have done all of that stuff. I've even lived in a third world nation right inside the US borders.

And instead of laissez faire economics, globalization and such, you should subsitute the words "faeries" because you can't show how one leads to the other any more than you can show how faeries cause the the poverty problems these folks are fleeing.

Can't show eh? Are you trying to say that a market doesn't exist for undocumented and unregulated labor in this country? Are you trying to say that illegal immigrants aren't used and abused and thrown away while on the job in this country? Are you trying to say that multinationals corporations haven't set such a low standard of workers rights in the countries where these immigrants are coming from that the atrocious conditions they get here are paradise compared to back home?

These people are not coming from places where the goverment leaves folks alone.

Sweat shops. Child Labor. Poison and mutilation. That is what a worker faces in the third world. And your family still goes hungry. The root cause of all of this is the globalization of laissez faire economic policies. It is the simple act of seeking the lowest amount of regulation in order to make the most money. Illegal immigrants are fleeing from this. Fleeing to a place where they are surrounded by a government that protects people from that kind of exploitation. They are parasites, in a truly biologic sense, bleeding off the dregs of "opportunity" that Americans, for very real and honest reasons, will not take advantage.

The reason why is because the "opportunity" is illegal in this country. A long time ago progressive Republicans like Teddy Roosevelt decided that working conditions like that were unethical, inhumane, and inappropriate. So they made laws that raised the minimum standards so that workers could be safe on the job and make enough money to feed their families. They realized that this was the only way capitalism works for everyone, because they had lived through the inverse.

That is why the above quote makes absolutely no sense. You just don't have any experience with exploitation and the real life effects of "anything goes" economic policies. The whole "invisible hand will lift everyone up" is nothing but a pie in the sky pollyanna way of looking at economics and it is utterly disconnected with reality because it has NEVER been observed to happen anywhere in the world EVER.

Further, "governments won't leave people alone" totally ignores the fact that massive corruption exists in these countries and that people in power are using the national laws to benefit themselves. Often they kowtow the wishes of multinationals, keeping the worker standards low in exchange for sweet personal stock options that make them craploads of money. Or its done because of outright bribery.

There is a new documentary out about the Bolivian government and their elections. You can see all of what I'm talking about in action. And you can see why the people rioted in the streets in order to get someone like Eval Morales in power. The movie was made by Rachel Boynten and it is called "Our Brand is Crisis." I think that if you watch this movie, you'll be absolutely floored by what you see. The candid way Bolivian politicions talk about their own corruption is astounding. Further, it should be noted that the candidate that is most highly tied to the multinational interests in Bolivia is having his election campeign managed by a bunch of Americans led by none other then James Carvell.

Things are pretty bad in the countries these folks come from. The goverment can pretty much push you around and you ahve to pay them off to get them to leave you alone. But that is not America's problem. Why on earth do these folks flee that type of situation and then run around in protest in their adopted countries flying their old nations flags????? If they come here to seek a better, American life, then why are they trying to sing in the language of another country????

I don't know why they want to fly their own flags and speak their own language. Maybe they look at all of the American's surrounding them and wonder...I'm a human being just like them, why don't I deserve the same rights that they have?

As far as the conditions in their countries not being our problem, I'd have to disagree. It is our problem. First, because American business interests are a major factor in causing those conditions. Second, they are our problem because in order to do anything about illegal immigration, we need to make conditions better so people stay at home. That is pure market economics. People are voting their feet in response to the environmental pressure.

 

[Don Roley]

Sweat shops. Child Labor. Poison and mutilation. That is what a worker faces in the third world. And your family still goes hungry. The root cause of all of this is the globalization of laissez faire economic policies.

Wrong. These people are falling over themselves to work for foriegn companies because it is better than anything they had before. If things were better before the companies came along, they would not work for them. They would not be trying to get to America to work if things without the foriegn companies were so good. The stronger the goverment power, the more that goverment seems to abuse that power. Take a look at Zimbabwe and try to tell me how laissez faire policies made that place the way it is.

People could still be living their life styles that are a century behind in certain places. They want their and their children's lives to be better. American life is better. Their lifestyle would still be a century behind us if the US never existed. They just would not have some place that they could look to for a better place for their kids. It is not the fault of globalization that their countries did not develop as fast as America.

I fully support people being able to take any job they want without do-gooders telling them they can't. They do not have to take the jobs. The enviroment you talk about just does not exist. People live in backward, third world nations that are not a tenth as advanced as ours. It is not international pressure that makes them so behind the times, it is a variety of things like powerfull corrupt goverments, cultures that have oppressed thinkers and things like that. So they come to nations where things are better.

I think they should be able to if they do so legally. Coming here as an illegal and then expecting the host country to accept their ways is just damn silly. I live in Japan and hate Americans that come here and will not learn the language or try to act like they are still in America. But at least they don't hold protests over the Japanese reluctance to sing their anthem in English.

 

[Makalakumu]

Wrong.

Apparently sweat shops don't exist. People aren't being regularly poisoned on the job. Multinationals in third world countries are taking every single safety precaution they can to protect their workers. No children ever have to work, much less work in sweatshops that overwork, underpay, poison and mutilate them. And people aren't starving despite all of this...

These people are falling over themselves to work for foriegn companies because it is better than anything they had before. If things were better before the companies came along, they would not work for them. They would not be trying to get to America to work if things without the foriegn companies were so good.

Anyone else see a contradiction here? These people (illegal immigrants) are falling over themselves to work for multinational corporations in their own countries and yet still feel the need to run to ours? Huh?

If the conditions that the collusion of the multinationals corporations and the corrupt third world governments created were so good, why don't these people just stay home?

The stronger the goverment power, the more that goverment seems to abuse that power.

True. That is why there needs to be balance.

Take a look at Zimbabwe and try to tell me how laissez faire policies made that place the way it is.

The exploitation those policies caused made people support a the populist message of a dictator. Laissez faire created the desperation that made Mugabe possible.

People could still be living their life styles that are a century behind in certain places. They want their and their children's lives to be better. American life is better. Their lifestyle would still be a century behind us if the US never existed. They just would not have some place that they could look to for a better place for their kids. It is not the fault of globalization that their countries did not develop as fast as America.

So, basically, what you are saying is that these people were incapable of organizing themselves, taking advantage of their own resources, and lifting themselves up? Therefore, they NEED the US and the West to do it for them. Does anyone else see the underlying bigotry and racism inherit in that argument?

What you just expressed was a left over belief from the colonial era. The British, and other colonials, thought this about all the people they came in contact with. They were primitive, they couldn't organize themselves, they couldn't form a "proper" society, they couldn't even take advantage of the resource in their own country.

I suggest you read Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs, and Steel." His work will neatly debunk this ill-informed, ignorant, and racist notion.

Further, there is an assumption here that their lifestyles were bad before the multinationals arrived. This assumption pays absolutely no attention to the history of the areas in question. Recent history, going back 500 years or so, is one of colonialism, corruption, and exploitation. All of this was forced, at gunpoint, on the people who lived in these countries. So, when you say that the people's lives were better now then they were 100 years ago, you're wrong. They aren't. People are still living under the same oppressive conditions they were before, except now, the pollution is worse, the work is more dangerous, the corrupt powers are more entrenched, and the coersion behind those powers are more dangerous and violent.

The US, and the multinationals, are nothing but colonial powers doing some of the same things that were done that were done by the Spanish, the Portugese, the French, and the British. Sure, we don't have troops on the ground committing genocide, but that is because the Spanish did it for us (and we did that on our own soil). Anyway, globalization and Free Trade are nothing but repackaged colonialism. The ideology is ultimately racist and that is why certain individuals who believe it feel that the "anything goes" approach to business is perfectly acceptable.

In fact, it has even gone so far that some people start claiming that we are doing these people a favor by giving them sweat shops, child labor, horribly unsafe working conditions, overworking for underpay, and by destroying the people's ability to use their own resources for their own benefit.

WOW!

The fact that some people can rationalize the gross mistreatment of human beings like that is utterly terrifying.

I fully support people being able to take any job they want without do-gooders telling them they can't. They do not have to take the jobs. The enviroment you talk about just does not exist. People live in backward, third world nations that are not a tenth as advanced as ours. It is not international pressure that makes them so behind the times, it is a variety of things like powerfull corrupt goverments, cultures that have oppressed thinkers and things like that. So they come to nations where things are better.

Another contradition.

For example, first you say that the environmental pressure that I'm talking about doesn't exist. And then you start naming a bunch of factors that create the environmental pressures that drive immigrants over our borders....huh?

I think they should be able to if they do so legally. Coming here as an illegal and then expecting the host country to accept their ways is just damn silly. I live in Japan and hate Americans that come here and will not learn the language or try to act like they are still in America. But at least they don't hold protests over the Japanese reluctance to sing their anthem in English.

I understand what you are saying here. I think that immigrants who do come here should assimilate, to a certain extent. However, I need to point out that my great grandparents and my grandparents still spoke (and speak) german and polish. In fact, my grandparents were the first generation to learn English. As a kid, I went a Catholic Church where the mass was given in German. I grew up on sauerkraut and perogies. My point is that there was room in this country for my families traditions. Why isn't there room for the traditions of the new immigrants? Why isn't the same respect that was given to my immigrant family members, given to these people? Even if they come here legally? I think that race is a huge part of this equation too.

 

[Makalakumu]

We are a nation if immigrants. The national anthem is sung in an immigrant language...english. What would people say if they knew that school children on Indian Reservations near my home sing it in Ojibwa?

 

[Don Roley]

So, basically, what you are saying is that these people were incapable of organizing themselves, taking advantage of their own resources, and lifting themselves up? Therefore, they NEED the US and the West to do it for them. Does anyone else see the underlying bigotry and racism inherit in that argument?

Calling me a racist? I really think you should apologize for even trying to use the race card.

It is a fact that some nations are not as advanced as America. They still live in places where water is bad, illnesses are rife, and the goverments should be put against a wall and shot. Pointing these things out is not racist!

Those things are not the fault of the US or its economic policies. They existed before we came along. The US had some good things going for it and kept out of the people's way for the most part to build wealth. Other countries had despots and bandits as rulers and did not do as well. The people in those countries were not pushed down by international trade, they were like that before it was a factor. Now they want to improve themselves by means of trade. They have no skills to deal with on the international market and do what they can to improve themselves with their unskilled labor. Or they come here if the factories in their own country are full.

And some of them work damn hard. They may not have skills, but they work what they can and try to make their kids do their best in schools so that their lives can be better. I know a few legal immigrants that are like that and they are people we should welcome with open arms. They are willing to do scut work to improve their kids lives and it is the rules of well- meaning ninnies and people with their own agenda that keep them from legally doing so in many cases.

And because things are illegal, those that do best as criminals seem to come along as part of the problem. You can look at prohibition for a good case of how making something illegal for people's own good leads to criminals taking advantage of the loopholes in the law.

 

[Makalakumu]

Calling me a racist? I really think you should apologize for even trying to use the race card.

Racism isn't a card. It isn't a person. It's an ideology. Implying what I pointed out above is racist. It's the same sort of belief that colonial societies have used for 500 years to do what they do. It isn't an insult. It's just an observation. For example, my grandfather still has a 1968 Vote For George Wallace, campaign poster in his garage. And sometimes he talks like Archie Bunker. Those behaviors and beliefs are clearly racist, yet I still love that old man. My point is that a person is not the sum of their beliefs.

It is a fact that some nations are not as advanced as America. They still live in places where water is bad, illnesses are rife, and the goverments should be put against a wall and shot. Pointing these things out is not racist!

But that isn't what you said. Here is what you said...

People could still be living their life styles that are a century behind in certain places. They want their and their children's lives to be better. American life is better. Their lifestyle would still be a century behind us if the US never existed.

The implication is clear. Those people wouldn't even be where they are without the US, without the West. You have completely underestimated their own ability to organize and use their own resources for their own gain. You have also completely justified our interference, because "American life is better." This is a racist assumption. Why is our way of life better then anything they could figure out?

Those things are not the fault of the US or its economic policies. They existed before we came along.

The problems existed long before the US was even a nation. They began with colonialism. The US (and now the multinationals) continues some of the same patterns.

The US had some good things going for it and kept out of the people's way for the most part to build wealth. Other countries had despots and bandits as rulers and did not do as well.

This completely ignores the current reality of our nations interactions with other countries and all historical examples of the same thing. The history of the US is replete with colonial conquest. Ask any native american. During the post civil war era, the US began to act like a broader colonial power and it was through this that it began to build wealth and power in the world. The Spanish/American war was fought between two colonial powers competing for the spoils of the Third World. These policies continue today. The Neocons in Washington are attempting to extend a "benevolent American Hegemony" across the world. Don't believe me, read there own writings.

The people in those countries were not pushed down by international trade, they were like that before it was a factor.

Colonialism is the root cause of third world poverty. The shipping out of their nations wealth for the benefit of the colonial powers is the ultimate reason why these countries have not gotten ahead historically and it is the reason why many can't get ahead today. We aren't really even talking about international trade. That is a misnomer. What this really is, is a tacit agreement between American installed stooges, who are armed with American made weapons that were sold at "very reasonable" prices (gotta keep down the proles), and US/Multinational business interests. The goal is to export their natural resources for our benefit. The profits from these sales, go not to the people of the country, but to the stooges we backed.

Now they want to improve themselves by means of trade. They have no skills to deal with on the international market and do what they can to improve themselves with their unskilled labor. Or they come here if the factories in their own country are full.

These people are just like you and I. They have the same potential that everyone here in the US has. They love their families as much as anyone here does. And I think they want a better life just like anyone else does. And I truly believe, that if given the opportunity, they could build their own societies within their own nations, with their own resouces. Trade is part of the deal, but "trade" isn't something that is happening right now. Trade implies a mutual benefit. The people who are running illegally across our borders aren't benefiting from "trade" as it happens now. All of that wealth isn't "trickling down" to others in the country. It's being horded and exported, perpetuating the colonial cycles that began 500 years ago.

And some of them work damn hard. They may not have skills, but they work what they can and try to make their kids do their best in schools so that their lives can be better. I know a few legal immigrants that are like that and they are people we should welcome with open arms. They are willing to do scut work to improve their kids lives and it is the rules of well- meaning ninnies and people with their own agenda that keep them from legally doing so in many cases.

Interesting. What "rules" are keeping legal immigrants from succeeding?

 

[Phil Elmore]

Colonialism is the root cause of third world poverty.

The root cause of Third World poverty is government oppression and misappropriation (not to mention misapplication) of national resources. The Soviet Union, for example, was remarkably poor at the individual level because it was very good at centrally planning the production of goods and services that consumers within the USSR didn't want, all while failing to produce the goods and services that they did want.

Socialism as a socio-economic theory denies reality in every way, shape, and form in favor of a fantasy -- the utopian notion of equality and mass well-being that becomes, in its execution, a dystopian nightmare. Blaming freedom, economic or individual, for the ills of the world may make the individual socialist feel better, but it is this misplacement of blame that is the denial of reality.

 

[Makalakumu]

The root cause of Third World poverty is government oppression and misappropriation (not to mention misapplication) of national resources.

The root cause of your root cause is colonialism. Colonialism has always been about extracting wealth from far away places. This always leaves little opportunity in those far away places. If we can figure out how to help local people hold on to their wealth, it would go a long way in helping to stem the tide of immigrants to our wealth.

 

[beau_safken]

But really come on...No matter how you look at it..its not a good thing.

One one hand: We legalize all the ones already here, pissing off all the ones that went thru the process and leave ourselves open for lawsuits using this a precident for future immigrants to demand citizenship.

OTher hand: We don't do a thing for them, kick them all out and pay more for goods like produce or other former illegal immigrant labor based product. Housing will go up, produce and other goods but we will all live in the short term. Allow all of them to do the process and show the world we will defend our borders.

 

[mantis]

The root cause of your root cause is colonialism. Colonialism has always been about extracting wealth from far away places. This always leaves little opportunity in those far away places. If we can figure out how to help local people hold on to their wealth, it would go a long way in helping to stem the tide of immigrants to our wealth.

it's the british, french, spanish and italians who appointed the corrupt and oppressing governments in the countries they invaded. a good example of that is 100% of the middle eastern governments including saddam's baath rule in iraq.

 

[crushing]

We are a nation if immigrants. The national anthem is sung in an immigrant language...english. What would people say if they knew that school children on Indian Reservations near my home sing it in Ojibwa?

Why does the real issue of ILLEGAL aliens keep getting sidetracked by such things as the language in which the national anthem should or shouldn't be sung?

Personally, I don't care what language the national anthem is sung in, although I am now curious as to how it sounds in Ojibwa. Got an MP3 of it?

 

[Don Roley]

Racism isn't a card. It isn't a person. It's an ideology. Implying what I pointed out above is racist.

No, you are playing the race card. Pointing out that nations are 100 years or so behind America, and that it is not America's fault, is not racist. It is just a matter of fact. They would still be behind us if America did not exist. They would be there due to corrupt goverments and things like that. Hey, do you think that a goverment coming in and conquering a country is an example of leave alone economic policies? :lfao:

Spain and France may have had a part in fouling up Mexico. Being run by folks like Pancho Villa and the PRI was probably an even worse thing for them. To say that it is because of leave- alone economic policies is just another false anti-capitalistic rant.

Coming in and building factories is not colonialism. Taking over the goverment through military means is. As Mantis pointed out, the Europeans invaded and appointed some really vile thugs in a lot of the world. But to build a factory and offer wages that local people would love to have and call it colonialism is nuts.

One side wants to offer certain things for certain services. The other side is willing to agree. Who are you to say that it is your right to stick your nose into what they both want? To claim it is in their own best interest, to shut down those factories or prevent them from coming to the US to work and letting them stay where they are is insulting.

If people are willing to come to the US legally and work at some of the scut work I know they do, then as long as they are happy with what they get I don't see how anyone else has a say in the matter. If they are not happy with the wages, then they can stay home.

 

[Cruentus]

Personally, I don't care what language the national anthem is sung in, although I am now curious as to how it sounds in Ojibwa. Got an MP3 of it?

lol...I am a bit familiar with Ojibwa tribes, and I am pretty sure their not singing the national anthem in their native language. They have other songs that they do sing in their native language which sound pretty damn cool.

And on a side note, I love the Gypsie Kings too, but I am sure that if they tried to do a rendition of the anthem that it would end up sucking. lol

 

[Makalakumu]

No, you are playing the race card. Pointing out that nations are 100 years or so behind America, and that it is not America's fault, is not racist. It is just a matter of fact. They would still be behind us if America did not exist. They would be there due to corrupt goverments and things like that.

I don't know, Don, it still sounds like you are underestimating our neighbors to the south.

Hey, do you think that a goverment coming in and conquering a country is an example of leave alone economic policies? :lfao:

That is only part of the equation, the inciting incident, if you will. Laissez faire came later and made bad things worse.

Spain and France may have had a part in fouling up Mexico. Being run by folks like Pancho Villa and the PRI was probably an even worse thing for them. To say that it is because of leave- alone economic policies is just another false anti-capitalistic rant.

You are taking to myopic of a view on this and missing the big picture. The bottom line is that colonialism made our economic exploitation of the third world possible.

Coming in and building factories is not colonialism.

It absolutely is part of colonialism. Colonialism has always been about extracting wealth from far away places. Building factories to process goods with cheap, disposable, labor is a good way to do that.

Taking over the goverment through military means is. As Mantis pointed out, the Europeans invaded and appointed some really vile thugs in a lot of the world.

And we've been doing the same thing for 150 years. Noriega, Pinochet, Saddam, anyone?

But to build a factory and offer wages that local people would love to have and call it colonialism is nuts.

Oh yeah! They certainly love those sweat shops that poison them, chew them up and spit them out, where even children aren't immune. They love them so much that they risk their lives sneaking across the border into this country!

Wow. Just wow.

One side wants to offer certain things for certain services. The other side is willing to agree. Who are you to say that it is your right to stick your nose into what they both want? To claim it is in their own best interest, to shut down those factories or prevent them from coming to the US to work and letting them stay where they are is insulting.

Again, you are neglecting to look at the difference in power between the two parties. If one party can control the choices and set the standards, then there really is no freedom. As far as me being a do-gooder willy nilly sticking my nose into things like sweat shops, deadly working conditions, and pollution...all I can say is that if I've got the power to help these people make their lives better, I'm going to do it. And I think that it is a safe assumption that they wouldn't look down on some gringo who is trying to stop other gringos from exploiting poor people in their countries.

If people are willing to come to the US legally and work at some of the scut work I know they do, then as long as they are happy with what they get I don't see how anyone else has a say in the matter. If they are not happy with the wages, then they can stay home.

It just doesn't work that way, man. The reality is that the people running across the border to find a better life have a lot less freedom then you think. And they have no rights that would protect them from people who would exploit them. When the "choice" is between exploitation and starvation for you or your family, there really is no "choice" at all. It doesn't have to be that way and I know that we can do better then that.