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[Makalakumu]

I don't believe you accurately see where this oligarchy starts and ends. How long it's been in place, or the results of dispelling it.

I totally understand what you are saying, but what is the alternative? Correct me if I'm mistaking your point, but I read that you are saying that learning about this and attempting to change things won't matter because the oligarchy is too entrenched the same people always end up running things in the end.

If that's the case, then why should we spend time even talking about these things? Are our masters so powerful that you really are helpless or have they convinced you that you are helpless and that you can't do anything about this huge problem?

Check out this video.

http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/

What if the Founding Fathers had felt the way that you seem to feel?

 

[celtic_crippler]

Some people are willing to be a lap dog as long as the scraps they're thrown are tastey. What happens when the scraps stop coming though?

You may find this interesting....

Short version:

Long version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0yU37mHf_M&feature=related

Makes you wonder... but as they say, perspective is everything.

 

[Marginal]

I totally understand what you are saying, but what is the alternative? Correct me if I'm mistaking your point, but I read that you are saying that learning about this and attempting to change things won't matter because the oligarchy is too entrenched the same people always end up running things in the end.

Different people probably, slightly different structure, same results at best. At worst, a whole lotta unnecessarily dead people if it doesn't fly. Then you end up reverting back to a stable (not necessarily desirable) structure.

I also wonder, slaves in exactly what sense? No matter the structure you're going to end up with someone who wields power over another. You will have to move with their agenda on some level.

CC: The last time the government was controlled by the people, (a handful relative to the population even then) the nation hadn't been half formed yet. I get the impression you think the wrong side won the civil war. (I don't really see the enlightened self interest that must've been guiding the South's actions.)

 

[Makalakumu]

Different people probably, slightly different structure, same results at best. At worst, a whole lotta unnecessarily dead people if it doesn't fly. Then you end up reverting back to a stable (not necessarily desirable) structure.

I also wonder, slaves in exactly what sense? No matter the structure you're going to end up with someone who wields power over another. You will have to move with their agenda on some level.

The point of the current system is it's instability. When the money supply can be expanded and contracted at the whim of the elite, a slow transfer of wealth occurs from the little guys (us) to them, as people/nations default on their debt and real assets are bought up for pennies on the dollar. A stable system would be the ultimate weapon for leveling the playing field.

Economic slavery exists when all wage earners pay the expenses for their own bondage and divert all excess funds into paying back principle and interest on the money that was created for them. A great majority of the world's population already lives this way and many people in the US are doing the same. The banks have got it figured out, if you can inflate the prices of goods and hold down wages, you can make it so that all major goods and services require you to take out a loan for purchase. This obligation demands some form of income from employers who depend on debt from the very same banks.

The ultimate result of allowing private interests to control the money supply is that they can choke it off to anyone who doesn't toe the line. This is the mechanism that the elite use to manipulate society.

There are many examples of people breaking free of this system. Our country, in fact, has broken free of it several times in the past...which has led to times of great prosperity. Only in the past 100 years have the citizens let it flourish to this point.

 

[Makalakumu]

Some people are willing to be a lap dog as long as the scraps they're thrown are tastey. What happens when the scraps stop coming though?

You may find this interesting....

Short version:

Long version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0yU37mHf_M&feature=related

Makes you wonder... but as they say, perspective is everything.

CFR, Trilateral, Bilderberg...I feel like a John Bircher for even talking about this. However, at least part of the time, they were absolutely dead on. Yes, check out these videos. Good stuff!!!

 

[blindsage]

The revolution will not be televised.....but apparently it will be on the interwebs!!

I'm so glad there are people on here to educate us all on the 'truth' and of course come to the same conclusions that they do. If only we all knew what they knew, then we'd have a real revolution!

 

[Marginal]

CFR, Trilateral, Bilderberg...I feel like a John Bircher for even talking about this. However, at least part of the time, they were absolutely dead on. Yes, check out these videos. Good stuff!!!

There's another.

The point of the current system is it's instability. When the money supply can be expanded and contracted at the whim of the elite, a slow transfer of wealth occurs from the little guys (us) to them, as people/nations default on their debt and real assets are bought up for pennies on the dollar. A stable system would be the ultimate weapon for leveling the playing field.

I'd argue that a stable system insures no such level playing field. Feudalism was a stable system. It still wasn't much fun for the peasants. What you are suggesting implies a fairly hefty amount of presumed value in the middle class, and that all their needs will be met if only our economic system was not so giddy on garbage debt.

If that level of stability was actually there, few would be taking on these nutty debts in the first place. Would be plutocrats couldn't cash in if they were barging into a stable system.

There are many examples of people breaking free of this system. Our country, in fact, has broken free of it several times in the past...which has led to times of great prosperity. Only in the past 100 years have the citizens let it flourish to this point.

When were people buying only what they needed? That seems to be the crux of the issue. It's not economic slavery if you think you need a brand new Escalade, a Blackberry, and feel pressured to buy a house "because houses only increase in value!!!!" That's stupidity.

On top of that, most of the boom times you're talking about were marked by their rather brutal treatment of the people actually manufacturing the wealth. Factory towns where workers weren't allowed to leave, and could only purchase things from the company store with their company scrip, child labor, slave labor... Not exactly the ideal I'm looking for out of our society.

 

[Makalakumu]

The revolution will not be televised.....but apparently it will be on the interwebs!!

I'm so glad there are people on here to educate us all on the 'truth' and of course come to the same conclusions that they do. If only we all knew what they knew, then we'd have a real revolution!

Hahaha laugh while you can, but we'll eventually get to a point where we can't afford to get snarky. Or you can quit wasting time and actually check some of this stuff out. What do you have to lose? At any rate, what do you really hope to accomplish with this attitude?

 

[Makalakumu]

I'd argue that a stable system insures no such level playing field. Feudalism was a stable system. It still wasn't much fun for the peasants. What you are suggesting implies a fairly hefty amount of presumed value in the middle class, and that all their needs will be met if only our economic system was not so giddy on garbage debt.

A stable monetary system actually has nothing to do with feudalism. When you conflate the two, it's like comparing apples to oranges. What I'm suggesting has little resemblance to what you are describing. I'm not suggesting anything, only explaining how the system works and how it transfers wealth to the elite. Look, crack a book or watch some of those videos linked above. That's going to help you understand what is actually being discussed.

If that level of stability was actually there, few would be taking on these nutty debts in the first place. Would be plutocrats couldn't cash in if they were barging into a stable system.

When were people buying only what they needed? That seems to be the crux of the issue. It's not economic slavery if you think you need a brand new Escalade, a Blackberry, and feel pressured to buy a house "because houses only increase in value!!!!" That's stupidity.

On top of that, most of the boom times you're talking about were marked by their rather brutal treatment of the people actually manufacturing the wealth. Factory towns where workers weren't allowed to leave, and could only purchase things from the company store with their company scrip, child labor, slave labor... Not exactly the ideal I'm looking for out of our society.

Money is created from debt. Every piece of paper you have in your pocket and every digit in your bank account was created as a loan somewhere to to someone. It doesn't matter what you buy. You could have a society that was conservative and frugal to the extreme, and still, over time, the wealth would be transferred from society as a whole to those who create the money. The reason for this is because the money to pay back the interest never exists. Only the principle of any loan ever exists at one time and since the entire money supply is made from the principle of loans, it takes an ever increasing amount of debt just to pay off the principle and interest. This is why we have continual inflation and this is why society will never be able to pay off it's collective debts. The entire system is a scam that is designed to enslave you. What you wrote above has nothing to do with anything that I'm talking about.

This is a simple matter of sitting back and understanding that this is how it works.

 

[Marginal]

A stable monetary system actually has nothing to do with feudalism. When you conflate the two, it's like comparing apples to oranges. What I'm suggesting has little resemblance to what you are describing. I'm not suggesting anything, only explaining how the system works and how it transfers wealth to the elite. Look, crack a book or watch some of those videos linked above. That's going to help you understand what is actually being discussed.

I think you missed the point. I'm more interested in reality. Where's the bedrock that will stabilize things? You've failed to say what it's supposed to be. ("Crack a book", and bland platitudes aren't solutions.)

This is a simple matter of sitting back and understanding that this is how it works.

Could you list these golden ages where none were exploited uh... economically?

 

[Makalakumu]

Money is created from debt. Every piece of paper you have in your pocket and every digit in your bank account was created as a loan somewhere to to someone. It doesn't matter what you buy. You could have a society that was conservative and frugal to the extreme, and still, over time, the wealth would be transferred from society as a whole to those who create the money. The reason for this is because the money to pay back the interest never exists. Only the principle of any loan ever exists at one time and since the entire money supply is made from the principle of loans, it takes an ever increasing amount of debt just to pay off the principle and interest. This is why we have continual inflation and this is why society will never be able to pay off it's collective debts. The entire system is a scam that is designed to enslave you.

What are some ramifications of this scam? Take a look at Health Care for example. In the United States we have the two party system pointing fingers at each other blaming the other side for ruining the system. One side says that they took away any oversight and protections from Big Pharma and this has allowed the system to bloat up and gouge the consumer. The other side says that they regulated the system so that the crony corporations would benefit and the prices rose. Both sides happen to be right and both culprits in this case happen to link back to the people who make the money and pull the strings.

Lets say in a perfect world, nothing happened to health care and we simply had a system, ANY system. Under the current monetary scheme, with downward pressure on wages and upward pressure on inflation, the exact same conditions for regular people occur that people experience now. People can't afford their health care! When you pile on the effects of fascist corporate/government collusion (which both are consumers of credit and therefore controlled by the people who issue credit) it only accelerates the pace that people are no longer able to afford health care.

The end game is terrifying because the controllers of credit control the left and the right. On one hand, they can sink any government with debt and completely control it because any institution that operates with this kind of monetary system goes bankrupt. And on the other hand, any individual can be completely buried with debt eventually, because it will become the only means of legal exchange (legal tender laws).

IMO, the scenario that gives the superclass massive fiat erections is the planned failure of social welfare programs as they bury once rich nations in debt so they tax the populace to oblivion. Then they flip the controlled paradigm so that only you are responsible for your health care and you have no way of paying, therefore you must use credit. That's the end game for health care under this system. This is what they are doing to many other major institutions across the board.

So, I hope people can see, this is the institution that lies at the heart of many of our problems as a nation. Understanding how this works will help everybody understand how things got the way they did.

 

[Makalakumu]

I think you missed the point. I'm more interested in reality. Where's the bedrock that will stabilize things? You've failed to say what it's supposed to be. ("Crack a book", and bland platitudes aren't solutions.)

No system is perfect, but there are better alternatives. Just "crack a book" (LOL!) and make up your own mind. Regardless, we aren't really at a point where we can discuss alternatives because most people do not understand what is wrong with the current system. Hard currency, government fiat scrip, private value notes, it won't matter if you don't understand how this scam works because with all of those systems, they can be manipulated to create the very thing we have now.

Fighting off an oligarchy that sought to control the monetary system is actually one of the little known aspects of the history of our own country. The Federal Reserve is actually the fourth Central Bank our nation has struggled against. The other three were put to the sword when people realized what they were doing. The last was killed by Andrew Jackson, who survived two assassination attempts in order to do so. Subsequent Presidents have also died, including Lincoln and Kennedy after taking measures that would have drastically changed the parasitic monetary system that was being built up at the time.

In the end, all of this is nothing new. To trace the history of this system read two books, The Assent of Money and The Creature From Jeckyll Island. Both of these books will help one understand the origin of the system and the players involved in perpretrating it all of the way back to the inception of the Bank of England and before to the various scams of the Venetians.

Could you list these golden ages where none were exploited uh... economically?

They never existed, but that's really not what we are talking about. We are talking about a system of money that is a scam designed to enslave the world. No one ever said anything about finding some mythical utopia.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Different people probably, slightly different structure, same results at best. At worst, a whole lotta unnecessarily dead people if it doesn't fly. Then you end up reverting back to a stable (not necessarily desirable) structure.

That's another thing we differ on. It is necessary at times as unfortunate as that is. On the surface that statement may sound a bit harsh, but most will not give up their power over you otherwise. On a more simple and perhaps understandable level, think in terms of self-defense where it comes down to your life or the life of the attacker. Which life do you choose?

I also wonder, slaves in exactly what sense? No matter the structure you're going to end up with someone who wields power over another. You will have to move with their agenda on some level.

Complacency is a tool they've learned to use over the centuries.

Give the masses enough to pacify them, to distract them from their ills and they will not challenge your authority as often. However, they only want to give enough to accomplish this and at times screw up enough for enough people to notice to do something.

It's happened over and over again throughout history.

The Founding Fathers knew governmet naturally attracts the power hungry and hoped that the Bill of Rights and the Constitution would help to prevent that with the watchful eye of the people. But, the people... the most unpredictable variable... have failed.

Perhaps human beings are like sheep and need shepherds. Perhaps people can't handle the responsibility of freedom. Perhaps it is the best thing for us to have our lives ruled cradle to the grave. If that's true of the majority, it's definately not true for me. Let the rest of the world be ruled, just let me and those like me have at least one place where we can go to live free.

CC: The last time the government was controlled by the people, (a handful relative to the population even then) the nation hadn't been half formed yet. I get the impression you think the wrong side won the civil war. (I don't really see the enlightened self interest that must've been guiding the South's actions.)

This nation can still be controlled by the people. I don't think it's too late though the time is getting closer where it will take bloodshed to change it. Every time another right is trampled on, every time what is mine is taken without my consent, the second hand moves a little more.

It just depends on us and if we take advantage of the vast resources of informaton available and stop accepting what we're spoonfed by the mass media.

And you would be right. I'm not naive enough to think that the Civil War had anything to do with anything so noble as ending slavery. It wasn't, and even the most elementary historian knows that. It was about what we're discussing here...power and money. You don't have to agree of course, you can go on believing what the public schools taught you in 5th grade and go on believing what you've been spoon fed.

 

[blindsage]

Hahaha laugh while you can, but we'll eventually get to a point where we can't afford to get snarky. Or you can quit wasting time and actually check some of this stuff out. What do you have to lose? At any rate, what do you really hope to accomplish with this attitude?

What I hope to accomplish is for you to stop assuming that I and others haven't already checked some (or most) of this stuff out just because we haven't come to the exact same conclusions you have. I'm not wasting time, but in my opinion you certainly are. I did a lot of this research 10-15 years ago, but thanks for 'educating' me. You aren't the first to discover this information, so please stop condescending to everyone like this information is new and we just don't know.

 

[blindsage]

In the end, all of this is nothing new. To trace the history of this system read two books, The Assent of Money and The Creature From Jeckyll Island. Both of these books will help one understand the origin of the system and the players involved in perpretrating it all of the way back to the inception of the Bank of England and before to the various scams of the Venetians.

It's not what you read, it's the quality of what you read. If you aren't reading multiple volumes on the same topics to compare and contrast and then checking a little deeper into the validity of their claims then, yes, you can come to the conclusion that books like The Creature from Jeckyll Island is valuable, but when you look a little deeper you discover, hey this is an extreme right wing conspiracy theory diatribe where the author distorts facts to make his point.

When you discover the various contradictions and distortions in the theories you're espousing, come back and join us and we can talk about actual politics and economics and discuss our problems realistically.

 

[Makalakumu]

It's not what you read, it's the quality of what you read. If you aren't reading multiple volumes on the same topics to compare and contrast and then checking a little deeper into the validity of their claims then, yes, you can come to the conclusion that books like The Creature from Jeckyll Island is valuable, but when you look a little deeper you discover, hey this is an extreme right wing conspiracy theory diatribe where the author distorts facts to make his point.

When you discover the various contradictions and distortions in the theories you're espousing, come back and join us and we can talk about actual politics and economics and discuss our problems realistically.

Those two books I suggested actually approach the same issue from vastly different points of view and yet the arrive and similar conclusions The Assent of Money is actually written by a Harvard Professor. The reason I suggested them is to show how these disparate POVs are now converging and what was considered "conspiracy" at one time, is now becoming main stream. At least part of what Griffin says is true...and I don't agree with everything he's got to say. As far as contradictions and distortions go, I'd very much like for you to have a go and point them out. It's easy an easy thing to say...

Also, I'd check out what eating you about this. I've basically said that people are being scammed and that we all need to wake up. It's a call to action and read more about this subject. What's wrong with that? If I come off as authoritative, its because I beleive I've put in the time to understand how this actually works. So, what's going on with 'tude?

 

[Makalakumu]

What I hope to accomplish is for you to stop assuming that I and others haven't already checked some (or most) of this stuff out just because we haven't come to the exact same conclusions you have. I'm not wasting time, but in my opinion you certainly are. I did a lot of this research 10-15 years ago, but thanks for 'educating' me. You aren't the first to discover this information, so please stop condescending to everyone like this information is new and we just don't know.

You really have looked at this stuff? What have you read? What did it say? What conclusion did you draw? Why is it different then mine? Why not simply explain your point of view and "educate" me on why you think what you do. I've put a lot of time and effort into learning about this stuff. These opinions are the culmination of learning that started fifteen years ago. If you can look at the same material and deduce something different, I'd be extremely interested in how you arrived where you did.

 

[Archangel M]

Waiting for the obligatory "military industrial complex" reference....

 

[Marginal]

That's another thing we differ on. It is necessary at times as unfortunate as that is. On the surface that statement may sound a bit harsh, but most will not give up their power over you otherwise. On a more simple and perhaps understandable level, think in terms of self-defense where it comes down to your life or the life of the attacker. Which life do you choose?

When it comes down to breaking into someone's house and throttling them in their sleep because you've decided they will be a threat later on... It's no longer self defense.

Give the masses enough to pacify them, to distract them from their ills and they will not challenge your authority as often.

Straining against vast conspiracies that you really can't change (in part because not all of it exists or is accurate) much less name serves that purpose quite well.

The Founding Fathers knew governmet naturally attracts the power hungry and hoped that the Bill of Rights and the Constitution would help to prevent that with the watchful eye of the people. But, the people... the most unpredictable variable... have failed.

People aren't that hard to predict.

Perhaps human beings are like sheep and need shepherds.

If so, then you're a sheep and cannot be a shepherd regardless. (Unless you're not human.)

And you would be right. I'm not naive enough to think that the Civil War had anything to do with anything so noble as ending slavery. It wasn't, and even the most elementary historian knows that. It was about what we're discussing here...power and money. You don't have to agree of course, you can go on believing what the public schools taught you in 5th grade and go on believing what you've been spoon fed.

Did I say the civil war was about slavery? I love it when you put words in my mouth CC. It's HOT. :whip1:

 

[Makalakumu]

waiting for the obligatory "military industrial complex" reference....

mic. Lol!