(Illegal) Immigrant day, and a new Anthem

[beau_safken]

The only reason you don't see Mexican's and the like being deported is because they don't usually use credit, do jobs nobody else wants to do, and blend in. We use them for their labor not their brains for the most part, course that isn't all of them but a good part. Point is that they are useful and big business needs the labor because American's would want too much to do the same labor.

FYI: If you are saying to kick them out or a bleeding heart it doesn't matter. IF you go to Walmart, buy 99 cent fruit and veggies, have someone cut your lawn, bought a new house, have a housekeeper, need a pool cleaned or something moved... You are guilty of using the illegal immigrants for their labor also.

 

[mantis]

The only reason you don't see Mexican's and the like being deported is because they don't usually use credit, do jobs nobody else wants to do, and blend in. We use them for their labor not their brains for the most part, course that isn't all of them but a good part. Point is that they are useful and big business needs the labor because American's would want too much to do the same labor.

FYI: If you are saying to kick them out or a bleeding heart it doesn't matter. IF you go to Walmart, buy 99 cent fruit and veggies, have someone cut your lawn, bought a new house, have a housekeeper, need a pool cleaned or something moved... You are guilty of using the illegal immigrants for their labor also.

you are definintely right.
i do not say kick them out, and i do not say keep them either. i think it's a more complicated issue than that.
what i am complaining about is the double standards that i see all the time in all aspects of life. I believe there is a great deal of corruption that has to be dealt with before we get to immigrants.

 

[beau_safken]

That is very true my friend. This is kinda like going to a vegan party with a bag of steaks, wheel of cheese and a keg of beer. The idea is so different between the parties involved it will be totally messed up no matter which side of the issue you are on.

We definetly need to get the illegals that have been here for 16+ years in some kind of citizenship to start paying taxes, getting tax refunds, drivers license/car insurance, and to make sure they are accountable for everything we all are. And it should cost them, just like it does to all other immigrants. Cost of paperwork, legal fees and other fees to get their paperwork done.

It's really hard to imagine also kicking all the illegal parents out, and giving the now legal children a choice to stay or go back with their parents. We didn't control our borders properly so we could profit from the cheap labor...we need to be responsible for our part in it as well.

 

[7starmantis]

well, the issue is a little bit more complicated than that. you have to realize your life style is going to change quite a bit if those immigrants did not. maybe this change is good, but maybe it's bad too!

I think you place an unrealistic importance on illegal immigrants and their place in the economy. I have no problem with legal immigration in fact I have many freinds and even family members who are immigrants from various countries (including Mexico) but the illegal immigrant being made to either leave or become legal will not affect my lifestyle.

the example you said is a little bit off. those immigrants came here and they want to live the american life, not the african, or mexican, or south american (no discrimination here, i'd want to list 185 countries but there's no place for it here). i think they're more than happy living the american life, and they do not want to change it, but they want to be given the opportunity to live here.

Again, I think your placing intent in the mouths of pepole you can't speak for. What exactly do you define as the "american life" then? Take my example from before (me moving to France to get away from American life), I wouldn't insist on singing their national anthem in english, I wouldn't insist on having their driving signs and directions and literature writen in english, I wouldn't insist on not learning french and using american money for everything I could, and that would be after moving theri as a legal citizen. Everyone of them has the opportunity to live here legally. Why should they have the opportunity to live here tax free, get free medical services, free education, while I have to pay for all of these? This isn't living the american life this is sneaking around mooching off of others and not contributing. I have no problem with people teaching their kids their own culture, language, etc, but to ignore the culture, language etc of your "new american life" is not "living the american life".

second, this entire country is a mix of immigrants, so you cannot really say that unless you have double standards (hmm.. sounds familiar)

I think you again have replaced the word immigrant with illegal alien. The two are not the same so no double standard exists.

third, originally this country is native indian, or mexican. it's not their fault that someone came and wiped them all out.

What is your point? I'm confused. You mean its not theri fault Texas or California is not still Mexico's?

I am a card carrying member of the comanche nation from birth, I still live and perform my daily life legally and I still pay my taxes. I could go live on a reservation and hide away from the American Government but I enjoy this so called "American Life" and so I contribute...unlike many.

besides, some of these "illegal" immigrants have given births to US citizens, and it's not fair to kick the parents out and keep the kids here, and it's not anyone's right to kick out those who were born here either.

Nope, but requiring legal status is not kicking someone out, its giving them the opportunity to do what the rest of us do. If they choose not to abide by the law then that is theri own decision. I guess next we'll be saying criminals who have families can't be sent to prison right?

it's difficult to treat this issue on a large scale, and it's even more difficult to deal with this issue on an individual basis.

some ethnicities in this country are afraid there comes the day when they're a minority. well, what goes around comes around!

Its not that hard, we have laws, if you want to live here abide by them.

Oh, and as a native american I've been a minority since birth with no chance of that changing, I dont see my minority status as something to live by.

7sm

 

[michaeledward]

Did you hear that Candidate Bush used to have the National Anthem sung in both English and Spanish when he was campaigning. He also had the National Anthem sung in Spanish at his first inauguration.

 

[beau_safken]

Don't worry...As soon as America wakes up from this Bout of nerf politics its gonna be too late.

IS it just me or do you kinda wish we had leaders like the old days. I'm talking the Abe Lincolns, founding fathers types and the like. Better yet, presidents that are willing to take a stand on something rather than bending to please everyone.

Singing the national anthem in Spanish....Why not just hand out sombreros and those churro's to everyone as a bonus to show how much we all care. I don't see American's learning Mandarin so we can be better business partners with our main supplier of goods now.

 

[Cruentus]

I shouldn't even be responding here because I am completely dumbfounded by this entire issue.

1. Could someone please explain to me why people who are here illegally, who have made no attempt to gain citizenship or a working visa, and who don't pay taxes, should have the rights to all of our goods and services, including fed/state regulated worker and wage protection?

2. Could someone please explain to me how anyone could have the audacity to come into a country voluntarily, take advantage of our opportunities illegally, and then turn around and protest about what? Leading to my next question...

3. What exactly are they protesting again? And HOW does THAT make sense?

4. How can anyone have the audacity to go into another country to demand that the NATIONAL ANTHEM be offered in a different language other then the national one. If I went to France or Italy and demanded that they offer their NATIONAL ANTHEM in English as well as their native language, then I would RIGHTFULLY be labeled as an ethnocentric pigheaded american.

5. And why, out of all proposed solutions, is no one in the media or political fronts talking about regulating the companies that HIRE THESE PEOPLE ILLEGALLY, as the solution to the problem. Strict fines for hiring illegals coupled with a raise in the minimum/living wage standards for those that work legally would be the most effective solution as far as I could see.

I am literally speachless on the issue. I feel like I am trying to make sense out of the "why do the terrorists hate us" question. It's one of things that if you think about it too long, you'll either become a crazy person or have an aniorism. Can anyone make sense of the issue for me without their heads exploding? :idunno:

Edit: sorry, lots of edits for grammatical errors

 

[mantis]

I think you place an unrealistic importance on illegal immigrants and their place in the economy. I have no problem with legal immigration in fact I have many freinds and even family members who are immigrants from various countries (including Mexico) but the illegal immigrant being made to either leave or become legal will not affect my lifestyle.

Again, I think your placing intent in the mouths of pepole you can't speak for. What exactly do you define as the "american life" then? Take my example from before (me moving to France to get away from American life), I wouldn't insist on singing their national anthem in english, I wouldn't insist on having their driving signs and directions and literature writen in english, I wouldn't insist on not learning french and using american money for everything I could, and that would be after moving theri as a legal citizen. Everyone of them has the opportunity to live here legally. Why should they have the opportunity to live here tax free, get free medical services, free education, while I have to pay for all of these? This isn't living the american life this is sneaking around mooching off of others and not contributing. I have no problem with people teaching their kids their own culture, language, etc, but to ignore the culture, language etc of your "new american life" is not "living the american life".

I think you again have replaced the word immigrant with illegal alien. The two are not the same so no double standard exists.

What is your point? I'm confused. You mean its not theri fault Texas or California is not still Mexico's?

I am a card carrying member of the comanche nation from birth, I still live and perform my daily life legally and I still pay my taxes. I could go live on a reservation and hide away from the American Government but I enjoy this so called "American Life" and so I contribute...unlike many.

Nope, but requiring legal status is not kicking someone out, its giving them the opportunity to do what the rest of us do. If they choose not to abide by the law then that is theri own decision. I guess next we'll be saying criminals who have families can't be sent to prison right?


Its not that hard, we have laws, if you want to live here abide by them.

Oh, and as a native american I've been a minority since birth with no chance of that changing, I dont see my minority status as something to live by.

7sm

what's your point?
1. illegal or legal immigrants are not important and we can live without them without ANY change in the economy and in turn our life styles?

2. this entire land was stolen in the first place. so "laws" have no meaning if you think about it (oh wait, we have double standards again)

3. you're happy with being a minority that's fine. white conservatives arent happy about that.

4. criminals who have families cant go to prison? again, ur examples are off. being a criminal is different from being an illegal criminal.

again, what's your point? what's your conclusion, suggestion, solution? to wake up tomorrow morning and find that 12 million people are gone?

 

[Marginal]

I shouldn't even be responding here because I am completely dumbfounded by this entire issue.

1. Could someone please explain to me why people who are here illegally, who have made no attempt to gain citizenship or a working visa, and who don't pay taxes, should have the rights to all of our goods and services, including fed/state regulated worker and wage protection?[/b]

What amazes me about this argument is it's usually offered by the folks who want to actively deport every illegal immigrant ASAP. If good and services etc are your primary concern, why oppose an amnesty program that would normalize the group, and turn the bulk of them into taxpayers? (Excepting Phil's minority which immigrates solely to commit crimes of course.)

3. What exactly are they protesting again? And HOW does THAT make sense?

Worth pointing out that it's largely an immigrant protest, not strictly an illegal immigrant protest. Penya seemed to be under the impression that they were looking for immigration controls that crack down on the folks enabling the illegal movement, like coyotes, trade imbalances etc.

4. How can anyone have the audacity to go into another country to demand that the NATIONAL ANTHEM be offered in a different language other then the national one.

How does Wyclef etc recording a version of the anthem in Spanish demonstrate a demand by illegal immigrants?

If I went to France or Italy and demanded that they offer their NATIONAL ANTHEM in English as well as their native language, then I would RIGHTFULLY be labeled as an ethnocentric pigheaded american.

I'd at least hope that those purely insturmental anthems would invent english lyrics. Oh, and a danceable bass rhythm.

5. And why, out of all proposed solutions, is no one in the media or political fronts talking about regulating the companies that HIRE THESE PEOPLE ILLEGALLY, as the solution to the problem.

That was one of the requests the speakers made in Denver actually.

I am literally speachless on the issue. I feel like I am trying to make sense out of the "why do the terrorists hate us" question.

Getting at least a little info on the subject might make it a wee bit less confusing IMO.

 

[michaeledward]

Perhaps someone could look into this ...

I'm curious how many of the people referenced through this thread DO or DO NOT pay taxes.

There seems to be a general assumption that any Illegal Alien - Undocumented Worker (whatever) - do not pay any taxes.

Even if one were to assume that they are being paid cash, under the table, in most states, any purchases they make are subject to taxes; the gasoline they purchase is subject to tax; the property they live in is subject to tax - thus their rent has tax included in it.

Further, assuming they are day laborers, being paid cash at the end of the day, the company for which they work, is probably being taxed on that unreported payroll.

I do not believe there are eleven million 'cash-under-the-table' undocumented workers in this country. I am willing to bet that the majority ... probably the vast majority ... of those workers are having payroll checks processed, which are subject federal income taxes, social security withholding and medicare withholding.

I will, of course, remain open to any evidence to the contrary.

 

[Cruentus]

Getting at least a little info on the subject might make it a wee bit less confusing IMO.

Well, being a wienie coward hiding behind a keyboard and screen name with no balls to talk to me like the above face to face is a lot less effective then providing more information or a logical addition to the discussion...."IMO."

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

It's a sticky wicket. I did get these two e-mails, which I thought put some interesting spins on it, though:

Dear President Bush:

I'm about to plan a trip with my family and extended family, and I would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this.

I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here.

So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm on my way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

1. Free medical care for my entire family.
2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.
3. All government forms need to be printed in English.
4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.
5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.
6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower.
7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.
8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.
9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort to learn local traffic laws.
10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers speak English.
11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.
12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don't enforce any labor laws or tax laws.
13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on the economy.


I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that Pres. Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely.

However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting with your V.P. Dick Cheney.

Thank you so much for your kind help.


...AND

1. 40% of all workers in L. A. County (over 10 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This is because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card.
2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.
4. Over 2/3's of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal.
5. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.
6. 29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.
7. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.
8. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.
9. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal aliens.
10. 21 radio stations in L. A. Are Spanish speaking.
11. There are 10.2 million people in L.A. County. 5.1 million people speak English - 3.9 million speak Spanish.
12. Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking crops. 29% are on welfare.
13. Over 70% of the United States annual population growth (and over 90% of California, Florida, and New York) results from immigration.
14. The cost of illegal immigration to the American taxpayer in 1997 was a NET (after subtracting taxes immigrants pay) $70 BILLION a year, (From Professor Donald Huddle, Rice University)
15. The lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult Mexican immigrant is a NEGATIVE

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

It's a sticky wicket. I did get these two e-mails, which I thought put some interesting spins on it, though:

Dear President Bush:

I'm about to plan a trip with my family and extended family, and I would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this.

I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here.

So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm on my way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

1. Free medical care for my entire family.
2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.
3. All government forms need to be printed in English.
4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.
5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.
6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower.
7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.
8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.
9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort to learn local traffic laws.
10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers speak English.
11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.
12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don't enforce any labor laws or tax laws.
13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on the economy.


I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that Pres. Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely.

However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting with your V.P. Dick Cheney.

Thank you so much for your kind help.


...AND

1. 40% of all workers in L. A. County (over 10 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This is because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card.
2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.
4. Over 2/3's of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal.
5. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.
6. 29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.
7. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.
8. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.
9. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal aliens.
10. 21 radio stations in L. A. Are Spanish speaking.
11. There are 10.2 million people in L.A. County. 5.1 million people speak English - 3.9 million speak Spanish.
12. Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking crops. 29% are on welfare.
13. Over 70% of the United States annual population growth (and over 90% of California, Florida, and New York) results from immigration.
14. The cost of illegal immigration to the American taxpayer in 1997 was a NET (after subtracting taxes immigrants pay) $70 BILLION a year, (From Professor Donald Huddle, Rice University)
15. The lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult Mexican immigrant is a NEGATIVE

Not sure of the fact/non-fact state of any of it, having not doen the research, but I thought the observations did raise some interesting questions.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Marginal]

Well, being a wienie coward hiding behind a keyboard and screen name with no balls to talk to me like the above face to face is a lot less effective then providing more information or a logical addition to the discussion...."IMO."

Urusai's apparently an apt name for the forum. I'm simply telling you that rather than running on pure assumption that looking into the immigrant's statements may, just possibly, shed some light on what they want. Since you hadn't bothered to do anything other than offer up a kneejerk reaction to a headline, I think it was warranted to suggest you at some point get around to actually reading the article below it.

Knowing my first name doesn't make my words less or more true. If you want to threaten me with physical repercussions, (which seems to be the only point of your sputtering) feel free to do so. I expect as much to come of it regardless of whether or not you know my name.

 

[Makalakumu]

No, it isn't. It's yet another facet of property rights. Those who are not legal citizens of this nation have no right to live and work here. I do not have the right to live and work in Canada without the permission of Canada's government; I am not entitled to this no matter how much I like Toronto. Even if Canada and the United States have some sort of free trade agreement, I still have no right to be in Canada.

Property rights? I fail to see how you, or anyone else, have any rights to property. People make the choice to not work the jobs that immigrants are working. The only thing that you are pointing out is that it is against the law...

...and the issue of why the immigrants are here goes untouched...

The bottom line is that I sense another stupid war coming on. Like the war on drugs or the war in Iraq and, for the most part, the war on Terror. This will be the War on Immigrants. For the most part, it will be reactionary. We will throw tons of money down to fight this problem without ever taking a look at why the problem exists in the first place. There will be no rational approach at actually finding a solution, only politically handy band-aids, stop gaps, and endless bickering. Meanwhile a second class citizenry will form in the US. A full fledged throwaway McWorker, totally devoid of human rights of any kind.

Happy happy day...

artyon:

 

[Hand Sword]

The jobs that illegal aliens are working are jobs that would be considered illegal in the US. They are often paid below minimum wage, they have no benefits, and absolutely no protection by OSHA. Illegal immigrants are routinely poisoned, mutilated, and/or overworked on these jobs.

Americans decided a long time ago that we didn't think that these kind of working conditions were okay. We've backslided big time.

Those jobs used to pay more until the owners found out they could pay much cheeper for labor. Through time Americans have become lazy and don't think of those jobs. However, Guess what? If you have to do something or go back to jail....You'll work those jobs. If your having trouble putting food on the table, and stand in lines for something every day, for months.....You'll do those jobs. Americans still do Mining and laborous jobs like that don't they? Yes! Pay what is supposed to be paid and Americans will work!

 

[Cruentus]

(which seems to be the only point of your sputtering) feel free to do so.

The point of my sputtering is only to make a few things very clear:

#1. Your not aiming to provide relevent information to this discussion. Rather, you're looking for the opportunity to try to carp and disparage people through snideness. I've watch you do this to me on this thread, to others in other recent threads, and you have had a habit of doing this for quite sometime. Usually weak minded individuals with inferiority issues do this in a sad attempt to make themselves feel "smarter" at other peoples expense.

#2. People who try to belittle others on internet forums through their "characters" as propigated by screen names and limited personal information are usually cowards. They have a cowards mentality who get their kicks off of argueing and belittling others on forums because their lives are empty. By cowards mentality, I mean that these people usually don't have the balls to speak to someone with the same sarcasm and insult face to face.

#3. It is good for these internet cowards that they are cowards and wouldn't act like such twits to someones face, lest they get hurt. If I, out of nowhere and without warrent, talked to someone the way you just did me in public, I'd expect to be punched in the face.

You seem to fit into the points I have made well. If you have a problem with that, too ****ing bad. The solution is simple. Don't be a dickhead.

If you disagreed with my statements, or if you thought I was out of line, then say so. Explain your position. We can have a logical and peaceful discussion like men.

As to your "points." I have heard many of the "immigrants" commentary on the issue. The problem is, I haven't seen a clear agenda accross the board. Many people who are protesting don't know why they are there. The few issues that ARE clear I happened to disagree with. We could discuss those issues. I could gladly discuss issues with anyone here.

But no....I guess it is much more fun to snipe at people in an attempt to present them as "stupid."

 

[Don Roley]

The jobs that illegal aliens are working are jobs that would be considered illegal in the US. They are often paid below minimum wage, they have no benefits, and absolutely no protection by OSHA.

With things like minimum wage, etc it really does not sound like the laissez faire system you claim to be the problem. Instead of trying to get rid of the capitalistic system, maybe we should be thinking about getting rid off all these things that the goverment says we need, but workers are willing to do without. Then we make legal immigrants of those willing to take the jobs.

What is the logic used to make certain things leagal?? I think it goes something like, "if we don't make this legal- people/kids will do it anyways in the wrong manner and get hurt." Seems to me that if the minimum wage laws and such are causing folks to hire those that will do the jobs illeagally, the same logic applies.

Let me just duck while the wars begin. :flame:

 

[Jonathan Randall]

With things like minimum wage, etc it really does not sound like the laissez faire system you claim to be the problem. Instead of trying to get rid of the capitalistic system, maybe we should be thinking about getting rid off all these things that the goverment says we need, but workers are willing to do without. Then we make legal immigrants of those willing to take the jobs.

What is the logic used to make certain things leagal?? I think it goes something like, "if we don't make this legal- people/kids will do it anyways in the wrong manner and get hurt." Seems to me that if the minimum wage laws and such are causing folks to hire those that will do the jobs illeagally, the same logic applies.

Let me just duck while the wars begin. :flame:

No problem here - you layed out your personal views unequivocally, but politely and respectfully. I hope the other posters will remember the type of forum we would like this to be and do the same.

 

[Cruentus]

Back to the topic at hand, does anyone want to discuss WHAT exactly the protesters are protesting, and WHAT they hope to accomplish?