(Illegal) Immigrant day, and a new Anthem

[Makalakumu]

Those jobs used to pay more until the owners found out they could pay much cheeper for labor. Through time Americans have become lazy and don't think of those jobs. However, Guess what? If you have to do something or go back to jail....You'll work those jobs. If your having trouble putting food on the table, and stand in lines for something every day, for months.....You'll do those jobs. Americans still do Mining and laborous jobs like that don't they? Yes! Pay what is supposed to be paid and Americans will work!

I absolutely agree. Those jobs used to pay more before employers started exploiting the pool of unregulated labor...aka immigrants. If we make a "guess worker program" we'll only see more of the same. The employers who use cheap, undocumented, unregulated labor are as much at fault as the person running across the border to seek a better life.

 

[Makalakumu]

With things like minimum wage, etc it really does not sound like the laissez faire system you claim to be the problem. Instead of trying to get rid of the capitalistic system, maybe we should be thinking about getting rid off all these things that the goverment says we need, but workers are willing to do without. Then we make legal immigrants of those willing to take the jobs.

What is the logic used to make certain things leagal?? I think it goes something like, "if we don't make this legal- people/kids will do it anyways in the wrong manner and get hurt." Seems to me that if the minimum wage laws and such are causing folks to hire those that will do the jobs illeagally, the same logic applies.

Let me just duck while the wars begin. :flame:

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying?

Undocumented workers don't have any rights. There is no such thing as minimum wage, worker safety standards, or any other worker regulated aspect of work...like a length of a workday. Thus, they are treated accordingly...overworked, underpaid, poisoned, mutilated, thrown away, etc. Sounds like "anything goes" to me...

Making them legal may solve the problem somewhat, but this has to include extending basic worker rights that everyone expects in this country. Thus far, no bill proposed by either side does this to my knowledge. What the bills would do is create a legalized system to bring in these workers so they can work under the EXACT SAME conditions they were working under in the first place. The effect of this policy will be to greatly increase the use of these workers and it will undercut every worker protection we have in place for American citizens. In effect, the "guest workers" will be more economically competitive then American Workers and the standard of living for American Citizens will begin to fall down to the level of these McWorkers (a second class of throwaway humans that basically have no rights on the job).

These are Laissez Faire policies no matter how you cut it. Capitalism may be a fine way of running things, but I do not think that we should take it to the extent where basic human rights are violated.

 

[7starmantis]

what's your point?
1. illegal or legal immigrants are not important and we can live without them without ANY change in the economy and in turn our life styles?

2. this entire land was stolen in the first place. so "laws" have no meaning if you think about it (oh wait, we have double standards again)

3. you're happy with being a minority that's fine. white conservatives arent happy about that.

4. criminals who have families cant go to prison? again, ur examples are off. being a criminal is different from being an illegal criminal.

again, what's your point? what's your conclusion, suggestion, solution? to wake up tomorrow morning and find that 12 million people are gone?

1.) I think maybe you should re-read the posts here, we are speaking specifically of illegal "immigrants" so you trying to combine legal and illegal is just incorrect. The legalization or deportation of illegal immigrants will have some effect but not the type you spoke about. I also said nothing about anyone (legal or illegal) not being important, you should be wary of placing words in others mouths, its dishonest.

2.) You are the one who brought up the "this land was theirs first" idea. I simply explained my envolvement in that idea as a native american and expressed my opinion that trying to hold onto past history is what has gotten us in trouble in the past. Lets live in today and deal with issues in the present.

3.) Again, your so quick to put thoughts and intent into people's mouths. I'm half comanche and half "white" I know no "full white" (whatever that means) people who are conserned about not being a majority, they have been a minority in many places for years. If we want to be real, there will most likely not be different races in the future anyway.

4.) Um...your contradicting yourself. Being a criminal is breaking the law no? People who are given the opportunity and time to participate in our country legally and choose not to deserve to reap the consequences, whatever those may be. If I chose not to abide by the laws of this country I would have to deal with the consequences, why should an illegal alien living here be any different? Do what the law requires or be punished, how can we uphold our legal system if that basic point is not important enough to support?

I think the solution is one that will take much time and effort, but I have no problem with alowing those in the country to become legal citizens (within a reasonable period of time or legally here with a visa etc.) or being deported. Look up Mexico's laws and regulation on immigration, or any country for that matter. I just can't understand why people think illegal "immigrants" who take what they want free of any involvement or payment of taxes, should be allowed to continue while we as citizens foot the bill.

7sm

 

[crushing]

Back to the topic at hand, does anyone want to discuss WHAT exactly the protesters are protesting, and WHAT they hope to accomplish?

While I can not speak for them, I think the protesters do not want the illegal aliens to become felonious aliens as some politicians have been suggesting.

I think it gets really fuzzy when there is a major media failure in their reporting to distinguish between law abiding migrants and immigrants and illegal aliens. It not only does a disservice to the national debate, but also to those that obey the laws.

Also, what I don't understand is why they would boycott the big business that are not only opposed to making the illegal activity a felony, but would seem to prefer amnesty for those that committed the illegal acts.

 

[Don Roley]

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying?

Undocumented workers don't have any rights.

Yes and no.

The rights that American citizens have to force others into doing things like pay at least a certain amount of money prices them right out of the market. If people did not go to illegal folks, the jobs would probably go to somewhere in Pakistan in many cases.

These illegal immigrants still manage to send home enough money that the Mexican goverment does not want the problem to stop.

If we got rid of a lot of the regulations that were not needed about minimum wage, etc, then the need to go outside the law would evaporate. Do you really think that someone who does a job that does not even require English speaking skills deserves as much as those that do? And if we cut off all the nice social programs that Kenbukai Kenpo listed as being used by many illegals, then maybe they would not be so eager to work for wages that sucked.

But when we start talking about cutting off all the goodies, people scream "but what about the children???"

For God's sake, let some of these people have a press conference with a gun to some kids head and at least be honest by saying, "if you don't give us what we want- we are going to hurt these kids by bringing and birthing them in your country."

 

[Bob Hubbard]

deport them all, build a wall, fine the living hell out of companies using them to fund the upkeep of the wall. Say, $1mil per violation.

We're paying $3 a gal for gas. $3 for a head of lettuce is around the corner either way.

 

[Makalakumu]

The rights that American citizens have to force others into doing things like pay at least a certain amount of money prices them right out of the market.

I wonder if you have actually seen the conditions that illegal immigrants work in? I have and I certainly would not want to work in those conditions. Further, I don't think that ANYONE should have to work in those conditions. If you deregulate the American Worker, then EVERYONE will be working in those conditions. The bottom line is that being safe and paying decent wages costs money. Sure, we can cut those things that help workers live better lives, but that is a quick way to opening up Indonesian style sweatshops in your backyard.

If people did not go to illegal folks, the jobs would probably go to somewhere in Pakistan in many cases.

Most of the jobs that illegal immigrants are working cannot be moved to other countries.

The jobs that can move to Pakistan, will. Free Trade agreements assure that. They also ensure that the countries with the lowest amount of worker protections are the most competitive. This is an ethically backward system, IMO. Sure, someone may argue that the government is "telling people what they have to do." My response is...
:sadsong:

So what if the big bad government is telling companies that they can't poison, mutilate, overwork, and underpay their workers...

These illegal immigrants still manage to send home enough money that the Mexican goverment does not want the problem to stop.

Why should they want that to stop? Illegal immigrants are a gigantic economic force in the countries where they are coming from.

If we got rid of a lot of the regulations that were not needed about minimum wage, etc, then the need to go outside the law would evaporate. Do you really think that someone who does a job that does not even require English speaking skills deserves as much as those that do? And if we cut off all the nice social programs that Kenbukai Kenpo listed as being used by many illegals, then maybe they would not be so eager to work for wages that sucked.

This argument is reminiscent of the people who say that vaccinations are bad and are surrounded by people who are vaccinated. The health of these people is being protected by everyone around them...and their laughable ideas really don't have much of an impact. The problem begins when these people start to convince others not to get vaccinated. That's when health standards start to fall.

Our standards of living are utterly dependent on worker protections and government regulation. A completely free market would drive our standards of living into the toilet. Don't believe me? Just take a look at the conditions that people work in, in unregulated countries. You wanna stick your kids in a sweatshop where they can get their arms pulled out of their sockets by a machine that the employer decided it was uneconomical to add safety gaurds?

That is the end result of an unregulated free market. Party on...

artyon:

The big picture of all this is not good. Guest workers, Amnesty, undocumented workers, are all just repackaged attempts to politically convince Americans to shoot themselves in the foot. The agenda is clear. Certain leaders in Washington would like to circumvent all worker protections in this country and help their campeign financiers make craploads of money. Meanwhile, everyone loses.

 

[Drac]

deport them all, build a wall, fine the living hell out of companies using them to fund the upkeep of the wall. Say, $1mil per violation.

We're paying $3 a gal for gas. $3 for a head of lettuce is around the corner either way.

Excellent idea....

 

[beau_safken]

deport them all, build a wall, fine the living hell out of companies using them to fund the upkeep of the wall. Say, $1mil per violation.

We're paying $3 a gal for gas. $3 for a head of lettuce is around the corner either way.

IF only it were so simple Bob...

 

[Cruentus]

I think it gets really fuzzy when there is a major media failure in their reporting to distinguish between law abiding migrants and immigrants and illegal aliens. It not only does a disservice to the national debate, but also to those that obey the laws.

Agreed. I think the media has done a horrible job in reporting the issue.

Also, what I don't understand is why they would boycott the big business that are not only opposed to making the illegal activity a felony, but would seem to prefer amnesty for those that committed the illegal acts.

This goes back to my point in that many of these protestors don't even really know why they are there, or what the hell they are doing. So, many parts of the issue, and the behavior of the immigrants attached to the issue, are completely nonsensical.

Here are some out of the many reasons for protest as I have heard them (as reported by the media, so I realize that some of these reasons may be way off base), and here is why I disagree:

1. Many of the protestors don't want illegals to be prosecuted or deported. Most want amnesty for those already here and working.

I am sorry, but right now they are here illegally, benefiting from our goods, services, and opportunities while sucking off the US government teet. The exchange of value is imbalanced, as they are mostly only offering cheap illegal labor (assuming they aren't a member of the criminal element that is here illegally), while our tax dollars foot the bill for their use of services.

So, under THAT circumstance, it is immoral and unjust to DEMAND amnesty for people who have not provided comparitive value for what we as taxpayers provide them.

Now, I can understand that deporting 11 million people is not a viable policy. But what is really counterproductive is to give blanket amnesty for people who don't deserve it. That will only encourage people to flee accross the borders, knowing that if they make it and hang out long enough that they will never see reprocussions, all the while putting further burden on our society and economy. Not to mention, Amnesty is completely unfair to those immigrants who went through the process of getting working visa's or citizenship.

A better solution would be one similar to what John McCain offered. I am fuzzy on the details, but the basic principle is that the people on the top of the 11 mil, who have been here for years working, who have families, and who have made efforts to function in american society would be offered citizenship; not as amnesty, but because they effectively EARNED it. Those in the middle who haven't met the criteria to be offered citizenship, but who are productive members of society could be offered a limited visa, and could be guided into taking the right steps to become citizens. The lower portion of the 11 mil - the criminals, the people who just got here, and the people who have made no steps to becoming productive members of society, would be deported and in some cases criminally prosecuted.

A solution similar to what McCain proposed, however, is not good enough for many of the protestors. This is because many of the protestors have a problem with ACCOUNTABILITY. Many of the have an entitlement mentality. This is the same entitlement mentality and lack of accountability that is screwing up our country in all socio-economic and cultural circles.

So THAT is why I think that this reason for protest is philisophically wrong.

2. Many of the protestors want workers rights and better wages for all workers, regardless of whether or not they are illegal.

If this was truely the case, then they should be putting down the hispanic flags, and they should be protesting for better working conditions and wages for ALL AMERICAN WORKERS. This would be a fair thing to stand up for, and I would agree.

However, they don't care so much for all American workers. They care mostly for immigrant and ILLEGAL workers. This is where I have the problem, as it goes back to that entitlement mentality.

First off, if you want a better job then get an education, learn the national language (which is ENGLISH) and some marketable skills, and get one. There is no shortage of companies hiring immigrants from other countries legally and with marketable skills, and giving them the same treatment and rights as they would an American worker. Sure, job availability, wages, and treatment should be better then they are. But, it should be that way for ALL people who are working here LEGALLY.

If you are here illegally with few marketable skills, then you can't expect to slip in under the radar with the rights to ***** that the only jobs availabe for you are manual labor. If you are here illegally, you are not entitled to a job, welfare programs, and health care. Sorry. If one can demonstrate their worth by showing the effort of being a productive worker and member of society, then one can have the benefits of our social programs and services because it would have been EARNED. Earning and entitlement are not one in the same.

3. Many of the protestors believe that because Hispanics are a sizable percent of the population, then Americans should make more accomidations for the culture, including but not limited too forcing public signs and directions to be in both Spanish and English, access to public services to be in Spanish and English, and even as far as the Anthem to be offered in Spanish, or the Mexican flag to be flown next to the American one.

Even though this is the least impacting of the issues, it probably is the one that pisses me off the most. This is because it is so damned arrogent.

Regardless of the evils that have occured for us to get here, The United States of America is a sovereign nation with its own history and CULTURE. Deny it or not, there are things in this country that is classically American. This is no different then seeing things that are classically french in France. Yet, if I were to go to France and demand that they dillude their culture to accomidate me, then I would be an arrogent pig. This is no different then the demand that some of the protestors are placing on us AMERICANS now.

That said, I of course have no problems with having signs and services be in Spanish in communities with large hispanic populations. This is no different then many of the signs in services in the Detroit/Dearborn area which are written in Arabic because of the high Arabic populus. This is fine, as it makes functioning in society much easier.

It is the DEMAND that is arrogent. It is the expectation that you should be able live and work in a country for years without having to learn the native language. Such expectations are just plain rude.

Out of all of these issues, what is most abhorrible and disgusting is the fact that many of these protestors are spouting hatred towards American culture and society, all the while USING the same AMERICAN society that we all work hard to build and maintain for their own benefit and betterment. Most of these people should be fallating the statue of liberty in american flag underoos for the opportunities that the US has gifted them and their families. Too bad it isn't applicable to deport such scumbags for treason.

Paul

P.S. Since I am such an ill-informed idiot, as demonstrated by other ingenious and all knowing posters, did I miss anything? Am I wrong in my assessment (kidding aside, it is certainly fair that I may be misunderstanding certain things)?

 

[Marginal]

Back to the topic at hand, does anyone want to discuss WHAT exactly the protesters are protesting, and WHAT they hope to accomplish?

Well,

• Any employer who hires a person without correct documentation should be subject to significant fines or imprisonment. "I think that would largely stop any new (illegal) hires."
• Don't waste billions of dollars building a fence between the U.S. and Mexico - spend part of that money instead on beefing up border patrols and employer inspectors.
Peña not only believes a fence would be ineffective and a waste of money, but he said he is concerned how a fence may damage political relations with Mexico, one of the country's most important trading partners.
• Peña said if employers still need workers, he is in favor of a guest worker program or fine-tuning current temporary visa programs for agricultural and technology workers.
"In this fashion, you legalize workers, you know what they're getting paid, you make sure there are health benefits," he said.
Peña, like others, is concerned about employers who take advantage of undocumented immigrants by paying them low wages. • Peña favors an amnesty program for the 12 million immigrants already here illegally, perhaps requiring them to learn English and pay fines to gain citizenship

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/other_business/article/0,2777,DRMN_23916_4668821,00.html

Full article there. (The same info you ignored last time in favor of a tanturm....)

 

[Cruentus]

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/other_business/article/0,2777,DRMN_23916_4668821,00.html

Full article there.

Thanks for the information and for adding something of value to the discussion. I will look it over and comment later when I have time.

(The same info you ignored last time in favor of a tanturm....)

Wrong. Not once in this thread was any of that information referenced so cleanly. Had you of referenced some information and made a cohesive arguement rather then a snipe, then I wouldn't have responded as I did. If you don't believe me, reread the thread. When you realize that I am right, you can be the bigger man, admit your wrong, and apologize for being rude. I am so sure that's going to happened.

 

[Cruentus]

To comment on the previous article (I read the article and figured I'll comment now while it is fresh, then log off for the rest of the evening)...

I am in agreement with Pena on a lot of the bullet points previously listed. However, I am in grave disagreement over the Amnesty issue, and one can read my arguement behind that.

I am also in disagreement with participation in the may 1st events, by protestors or political leaders deciding to speak at some of the more peaceful rallys. The reason is because this protest was also designed for immigrant workers to walk off their jobs for a day to "show" america and its employers what it would be like to function with out them. Such actions are a betrayal to the very country that gave them the opportunity in the first place.

Does the US and its companies get to take a day off from providing services like education, healthcare, welfare, and opportunity? And how about flying native flags....the flags the represent the countries that could not give them the opportunities that the US offers them?

Bottom line: if you don't like it here, leave. If you like it here but want to change the immigration process, then do so through legitamite means. I see walking off your job for a day and making your demands on the streets as a betrayal of the country that offered you freedom, not as a legitimate means of supporting the country you live in while trying to to improve the process.

The fact is, at least as the media has reported it, the reasons I listed previously are the main reasons that people were out there. Pena from Denver offers solutions and other reasons to be out there, but he does not represent the vast majority of the protesters as far as I can see.

Paul

 

[shesulsa]

Moderator note:

Keep the conversation polite and respectful, please.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Senior Moderator

 

[Monadnock]

Hey everyone! (Que Pasa?)

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

 

[Don Roley]

I wonder if you have actually seen the conditions that illegal immigrants work in? I have and I certainly would not want to work in those conditions. Further, I don't think that ANYONE should have to work in those conditions.

Well, no one is forcing you to take the jobs. There are plenty of people who would take the job- that is why we are facing this situation.

Why should two adults working out something between themselves be interfered with by another just because that outsider thinks that something does not meet their standards? I am not attracted to homosexual sex. But if two adults want to do it, who am I to butt in? In the same token, if two adults (employer and employee) want to agree to something, why should your reluctance to do the same job have any bearing on the matter?

I have heard anti-capitalistic types say that employers force workers to take wages because there is no other choice and they would die without even meager wages. But we have people risking death and travelling hundreds of miles for a wage that people say you can't live on.:idunno:

It does not matter if we give the current batch of illegals amnesty. They will then be covered by the wage controls that first led to the employers looking for folks willing to work for what they thought was worth their skills. And most of the new folks won't have the English language skills to get a wage worth minimum wage or better. They would probably just end up on some sort of assistance program.

And as for 3 dollars a head of lettuce.... Bob, have you looked at where some of your produce comes from? I can't remember for America, but in Japan they tend to label that type of thing. I would bet you would pay 1.20 a head of lettuce from Chile and pay a lot more in taxes to support the farmers that went bust.

 

[7starmantis]

Hey everyone! (Que Pasa?)

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

Right, that means anyone who wants to sneak in can, anyone who wants to steal free medical care can, anyone who wants to use educational systems, roads, transportation systems without helping to pay for them can....... I guess us law abiding, tax paying citizens are the dopes then.....anyone got info on how to renounce your citizenship?

7sm

 

[Makalakumu]

Well, no one is forcing you to take the jobs. There are plenty of people who would take the job- that is why we are facing this situation.

The question important question that many people are missing is why immigrants feel the need to leave their homes and their families to work a job that pays low wages, has ungodly long hours, will poison them, could mutilate their bodies, etc...

The fact that we can even ask that question describes the desperation that drives immigrants into this country in order to look for a better life...

Why should two adults working out something between themselves be interfered with by another just because that outsider thinks that something does not meet their standards? I am not attracted to homosexual sex. But if two adults want to do it, who am I to butt in? In the same token, if two adults (employer and employee) want to agree to something, why should your reluctance to do the same job have any bearing on the matter?

You are assuming that both parties are equal. They are not. The difference in POWER makes a difference. When you have the power to set a minimum standard that is unethical by all measures so that you can make more money, you control the options the other person has to choose from. In the end, the choice, on the part of the powerless party doesn't matter. This is the essence of exploitation.

I have heard anti-capitalistic types say that employers force workers to take wages because there is no other choice and they would die without even meager wages. But we have people risking death and travelling hundreds of miles for a wage that people say you can't live on.:idunno:

They risk death and worse on the job in order to squeak by and hopefully feed their children. Would you do any different, Don, if you lived in an area where the options were starvation for you and your family or immigrating illegally to a foreign country to send home a meager wage for as long as your body can handle the terrible working conditions? If I had to, I would do that...but that doesn't mean that I think it is a good thing. And I think that society should do everything it can so people aren't faced with such a terrible life. That is what it means to be a progressive.

It does not matter if we give the current batch of illegals amnesty. They will then be covered by the wage controls that first led to the employers looking for folks willing to work for what they thought was worth their skills. And most of the new folks won't have the English language skills to get a wage worth minimum wage or better. They would probably just end up on some sort of assistance program.

First of all, NONE of the amnesty programs extend even basic protections to these workers. They only make it legal to hire them. Second, it sounds as if you are saying that these people aren't even worth minimum wage...much less a living wage. When you are one of those people, tell me what you think then.

I would rather pay 3.00 bucks for a head of lettuce that puts food on the table for the growers family and brings both parents home safely at night to take care of their children. In fact, I do pay for this. It's called a an Organic Coop.

 

[Monadnock]

Right, that means anyone who wants to sneak in can, anyone who wants to steal free medical care can, anyone who wants to use educational systems, roads, transportation systems without helping to pay for them can....... I guess us law abiding, tax paying citizens are the dopes then.....anyone got info on how to renounce your citizenship?

7sm

Oh well crap - tear the thing down then. It came from the French anyways...

 

[crushing]

Hey everyone! (Que Pasa?)

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

I'm not sure of the point of your post with the 19th century nation building quote, but I'm not seeing many people wanting to eliminate legal immigration, or get rid of legal migrants. The problem most people have seems to be with those that break the law and cheat the system; cut in line, so to speak.

Also, while the Statue of Liberty was a gift from the French, the quote is actually from an American poet, Emma Lazarus.