Taekwondo: Art versus sport

[ATC]

"then they must also believe that they can take what they do into the sport ring and make it work"

I have never heard this. I have always said the opposite.

My point is they are different.

Dave O.

Correct, they are different and most sport people know this. But most traditionlist seem to lump the sport in with the art or only see the sport as what you call your art. Most sport people attempt to practice both to some degree. Thus this debate of can you do both? I say yes.

 

[ATC]

Hey, ATC, never let it be said that I don't think your kids work hard. They clearly do and you're rightfully proud of them. Our differences in opinion are on a macro-level.

I do get what you are saying and agree that if one dedicates himself to one vs. the other they will be better at the one then someone that is trying to split the two.

But I still believe that if dedicated enough you can archive a 100/80% proficiency in one vs. the other. Will you ever be 100/100? Maybe not, but at some point if you are 100% sport / 80% art, it will become down the road when the sport side is no longer an option only 100% art. And you will still be fairly young for most when that day comes.

 

[dancingalone]

But I still believe that if dedicated enough you can archive a 100/80% proficiency in one vs. the other. Will you ever be 100/100? Maybe not, but at some point if you are 100% sport / 80% art, it will become down the road when the sport side is no longer an option only 100% art. And you will still be fairly young for most when that day comes.

At what age and years of practice do you achieve a 100/80 split?

If you told me someone could achieve 80%/10% competency in sport/traditional after 5+ years of hard practice (averaging 30+ hours per week training), I might be inclined to go along with you.

100/80 in the same time frame? No way, no how.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I agree with everything you just said. And it says to me that most traditionalist disrespect the sport rather than the sport practitioners disrespecting the art.

I think that it goes both ways, depending on the week. The core of the problem may be more that some of those who practice the traditional art see the emphasis on sport as damaging to the art, mainly because it causes non sportive elements to fall into disuse.

It may be just my perception and or interpretation but if someone that does not do the sport but only the art for SD, then look at the sport and believe that what they see will not work or can't be applied in an SD situation, and they don't believe that there is any power with any technique or they don't know how to block or protect them self’s from attack, then they must also believe that they can take what they do into the sport ring and make it work. Again this is the conclusion I come to.

You do not have to do the sport to determine that some of what is part of the sport does not translate to good SD.

The other side of the coin that you mention is that many sport practitioners seem to feel that the sport technique does translate into effective SD, which in reality, it does not.

Also, very few here argue that the techniques in sport do not have power. They do argue that athletes will overextend themselve or actually fall in the process of trying to score with a hit, which will at least diminish the power in those circumstances.

As for the idea that sport taekwondoist do not know how to block, this not an arguement that I see made for the most part. Usually the arguement is that they know how to block, but that sport training trains out the reflex to do so.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

At what age and years of practice do you achieve a 100/80 split?

If you told me someone could achieve 80%/10% competency in sport/traditional after 5+ years of hard practice (averaging 30+ hours per week training), I might be inclined to go along with you.

100/80 in the same time frame? No way, no how.

I think I see the issue here. First off you cannot weight both the art and the sport the same. The art has a greater weight by far. There is just more to it than the sport.

When I talk about the training in the sport, I am talking repetitive drills and conditioning. Only time is needed and there are by no means the same number of techniques being performed as the art. Your training for the sport is set and pretty much a routine where you are simply trying to get fast and more accurate with a few techniques. So to reach 100% with the sport can be achieved in a short time compared to the entire art.

With the art you may never reach a true 100% number so my previous example is indeed off. I should have said that a person studying the art only for 5 years may reach 10% competency. But the person doing both the art and the sport may be more of a 5/100% split.

I see your point. But still think there is room to learn both well. Because the sport is such a short journey compared to the art, There is really not that much time lost dedicated to the entire art.

 

[dortiz]

My last pitch...really.

What I am saying is that the strikes, the way you move attack etc and the intention are different. If the Old style person tries sport they will suck. Why, because they train to take X shot in exchange to get Y shot in and win the fight.
The sport guy will in the same token lose the fight because their reaction will also be what they trained, a quick shot that wins the point possibly off balancing and possibly with arms down. Would have won a point but lost a fight.
Dont believe me thats fine. But many experts say you will react the way you train. Even better dont believe me but if you want to tell your sports folks they can fight start making them do drills with light contact but focusing on fight vs point. prove me wrong and I will feel better anyway.
I dont think the best fighter in the world will win in a sports ring with rules and I dont think a sports guy will react any differently than trained in a fight.

Either of the two can of course later focus and change their training and either have a lot of core skills that yes are the same and add a lot of value. But what you train is what you will do.



Dave O.

 

[ATC]

...Even better dont believe me but if you want to tell your sports folks they can fight start making them do drills with light contact but focusing on fight vs point. prove me wrong and I will feel better anyway.
I dont think the best fighter in the world will win in a sports ring with rules and I dont think a sports guy will react any differently than trained in a fight.

Again, I hope I am wrong.

Dave O.

We do this in our regular classes and for the most part our guys that compete are just so much faster and better readers that the ones that don't compete can't touch them. Now these are our top competitors. I do see our casual competitors get hit by noobs.

 

[d1jinx]

ALL please forgive my ignorance.:asian:

 

[dancingalone]

Knock it off, man.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Thank you for clarifying something I already knew. The term Olympic style has become a "slang" amungst martial artist that has been used more than once in this thread when referring to WORLD TAEKWONDO FEDERATION (otherwise known as the WTF and not What The ****..) style of fighting or sparring or gyurogi or kumite or any other name you may use for competition.
I wasnt aware I must watch my P's and Q's when addressing such a highly knowledgable audience.

ALL please forgive my ignorance.:asian:

You take yourself way too seriously. No need to shout at everyone or cry the blues.

Congratulations on making the first outright rude post in this thread.

Daniel

 

[d1jinx]

ALL please forgive my ignorance.:asian:

better?

 

[ATC]

Well to keep this thread on track. Dancing...did my recent response to you clarify things any? I know I finally understood what you were saying.

 

[dancingalone]

Well to keep this thread on track. Dancing...did my recent response to you clarify things any? I know I finally understood what you were saying.

It sure did. Thank you. In turn, I think I now understand more fully what you meant by doing both. The phrase doesn't mean you have equal levels of proficiency in both, nor does it mean that they are equivalent in volume or depth of content.

 

[Twin Fist]

By that definition you can not do two things well can you say say you do good TKD and good Kempo?

depends on who I am hanging out with. I am either a TKD guy with good hands or a Kenpo guy who can kick

those two arts do not contradict each other the way SD TKD and Sport TKD do.

 

[miguksaram]

depends on who I am hanging out with. I am either a TKD guy with good hands or a Kenpo guy who can kick

those two arts do not contradict each other the way SD TKD and Sport TKD do.

See I guess I was brought up differently. Sport is part of TKD just like SD is part of TKD. One can be good at both. It is just a simple case of correct training. In our school we have a good amount of competitors who are national and world champions. They are also very good at their SD and traditional training. This because we teach balance of both.

 

[Twin Fist]

but the problem is, sport TKD teaches things that are in direct opposition to what SD TKD is.

therein lies the problem

 

[dancingalone]

but the problem is, sport TKD teaches things that are in direct opposition to what SD TKD is.

therein lies the problem

Maybe it would be useful to make a list of these points so there could be be some rational discussion? I'm eager to get beyond the usual bickering on this topic and think a level, measured exchange would be useful.

Want to come up with a list of 'charges'? I have my own thoughts, but it seems that I have already spoken greatly on this thread. Would be nice to see someone else come up with something.

ATC or whomever else don't be shy either. What are the usual memes you hear about sport TKD that you would like to respond to?

 

[dortiz]

"See I guess I was brought up differently. Sport is part of TKD just like SD is part of TKD. "

The thing here is that the sport side has evolved. To say by leaps and bounds is being mild. Watching the stances and techniques of the 70s in to 80s versus now is amazing.
Therefore what used to be the Fight aspect controlled and protected has involved in to a greater sport.
So yes, you were brought up differently.

"just like SD is part of TKD"
Here lies the issue. You see TKD was self defense. Breaking it in to sport and this new trend of adding modules and calling that part self defense is what has changed. TKD can be self defense in its entirety.

I wonder if you go to a Okinawa Gojo Ryu school if they do self defense on Tuesdays?

Dave O.

 

[dancingalone]

See I guess I was brought up differently. Sport is part of TKD just like SD is part of TKD. One can be good at both. It is just a simple case of correct training. In our school we have a good amount of competitors who are national and world champions. They are also very good at their SD and traditional training. This because we teach balance of both.

There's been a huge evolution is sport taekwondo from when many of us started. You seem to be a younger man, miguksaram. Take a look at these to see the perspective that many of have. In the former video, the sport application looks a lot closer to 'traditional' martial arts to me.

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[TKD'oh]

Look how low Joe Lewis' hands were in that clip. I'm assuming they weren't throwing hands to the face?