Taekwondo: Art versus sport

[dortiz]

He he he I just got side kicked with no pads. Shake it off son.

A lot has changed.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

"See I guess I was brought up differently. Sport is part of TKD just like SD is part of TKD. "

The thing here is that the sport side has evolved. To say by leaps and bounds is being mild. Watching the stances and techniques of the 70s in to 80s versus now is amazing.
Therefore what used to be the Fight aspect controlled and protected has involved in to a greater sport.
So yes, you were brought up differently.

"just like SD is part of TKD"
Here lies the issue. You see TKD was self defense. Breaking it in to sport and this new trend of adding modules and calling that part self defense is what has changed. TKD can be self defense in its entirety.

I think that this really gets to the heart of the matter. When I spar under WTF rules, I fight as the 'fight aspect controlled' and needless to say, I do not score like I would if I treated it as a sport. I do okay; my defense if very solid, but generally, I tend towards a more classical stance and strategy. My sparring stance looks more like David Moons than Steven Lopez.

The modern sport under the WTF rule set has evolved to such a degree that it is relatively divorced from the rest of the art.

Daniel

 

[dortiz]

"
The modern sport under the WTF rule set has evolved to such a degree that it is relatively divorced from the rest of the art.

Daniel "

That was exactly what I have done a bad job of trying to say.

Dave O.

 

[dancingalone]

Look how low Joe Lewis' hands were in that clip. I'm assuming they weren't throwing hands to the face?

No, I recall plenty of backfists and reverse punches to the face (most of the time, you would pull the strike - they would still be called if executed crisply). Lewis would usually slip punches to the head just by turning his body. I guess he was more concerned about guarding his body from kicks, given his particular opponent in this video.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

"Look how low Joe Lewis' hands were in that clip. I'm assuming they weren't throwing hands to the face? "

Really? Please talk to your teacher. Having both arms swing by your side for you kick balance is differnt than a low front guard with back hand covering the other half. His hand are ready and covering as you watch him move.
Look at 1:01

Dave O.

Another good observation!

Low guard with blocking and dodging vs. no guard and just dodging is a fundemental difference between what I grew up (video one) with and what is done now (video two).

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

but the problem is, sport TKD teaches things that are in direct opposition to what SD TKD is.

therein lies the problem

But taught correctly the practitioner would apply them in the correct setting. What exactly are the opposite traits being taught?

 

[TKD'oh]

No, I recall plenty of backfists and reverse punches to the face (most of the time, you would pull the strike - they would still be called if executed crisply). Lewis would usually slip punches to the head just by turning his body. I guess he was more concerned about guarding his body from kicks, given his particular opponent in this video.

That makes a lot of sense. Thinking back to when I practiced point sparring as a kid, I guess I do remember some guys with a similar stance. My preference was to carry my front hand a little higher for quicker jabs to the face.

 

[dortiz]

TKD'oh
please accept my apology for sounding way to snippy. I deleted it but see it was quoted. I think my point was right but my answer was too caffinated : o

Dave O.

 

[TKD'oh]

TKD'oh
please accept my apology for sounding way to snippy. I deleted it but see it was quoted. I think my point was right but my answer was too caffinated : o

Dave O.

No problem. I noticed it in the quote, but figured that there was a reason you deleted it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

But taught correctly the practitioner would apply them in the correct setting. What exactly are the opposite traits being taught?

Probably depends on where you train, but much of the high level WTF matches that I have seen all maintain a hands at sides position and do not seem to block... ever. They dodge, which is good, but artificially so; they know where the attacks are coming from and where they are going. No punches above the torso and they are not scored anyway, so punching defense is often nil. All of the kicks will be mid to high.

Then there is the hugging, the scoring while falling down, and a lot of what reminds of the contortions seen in a match between olympic foilists.

Are these guys and gals athletic? Darned right they are! But does what they do have anything to do with Taekwondo outside of a common organization and some kicks? No.

Does that make it inherently bad? No.

Does that mean that they cannot defend themselves? Some probably can, some probably cannot.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

Well I remember watching Joe Lewis in the kick boxing ring and he stood and fought a lot different than he did in the point sparing ring. Plus he was/is one great teacher and can only assume that his SD is solid as well. He was a soldier after all.

This proves to me that you can do both and do both well. Everyone gets caught up in the hands down and bad habits thing. Your brain is capable of understanding situations and performing as you want depending on the situation. If you only train for one vs. the other then yes your brain only knows what it knows and will do what it trains for. But if you training is well rounded and you just happen to train for both your brain will build connections for both and be able to switch between the both.

It is like a translator that speaks both languages well. They have the ability to switch between both in an instant, they trained to do that.

Another example is football and baseball. If you never threw a football your first, second and many after that throws are not so good. But after some time you will be able to use the correct mechanics to throw a football the way a football needs to be thrown. However just because you now know how to throw a football you don't forget how to throw a baseball and can switch between the two quite easy.

Another thing that I hear is that sport or WTF TKD teaches this bad habit of keeping your hands down. This is not true. You need to keep you hands down because 90% of the strikes are to the trunk and they all originate from the leg using the feet which are on the ground. You need to protect the closest point for the feet hitting, which is your trunk. As opposed to a punch to the face that originates from the arms using the hands. You need your hands to be up at this point due to the closest striking point being the face or head.

Think about it, the foot has to travel from the ground to the head. The furthest point possible. The fist has to travel from about chest high to the head, or about 8 inches. If you are in a match that only kicks to the head are allowed (no punching to the head) then you need to keep your hands at the best possible point to attempt to protect all of you body. This includes your back.

Once the brain knows that you can be punched in the face then the hand will naturally come up. No one drops their hands on pourpose when they need to keep them up for a punch. Exhaustion does this or fatigue not the habit. The best boxers start to drop their hands when tired. That is why you have KO's in boxing as well. Not from not wanting to keep their hands up but from not being able to, because they are tired.

Well in TKD you see KO's as well but not from not wanting to keep or put the hands up, but because they really can't keep or put the hands up because they would always lose and still get KO'd after some time as the hands went down anyways.

I have seen many KO's with hands up. Why? Because once you get beat in the body enough (it hurts) and you see a kick coming to the body you will drop to protect it. That’s when you will get faked to the body and straight to the head. Boxer do it to, they beat the body to drop the hands.

Again if you don't do both or even the just the sport you won't understand or know. You have to do it to know. All this arguments on either side is really moot until you experience it.

 

[dortiz]

"Again if you don't do both or even the just the sport you won't understand or know. You have to do it to know. All this arguments on either side is really moot until you experience it. "

I have always studied Kukkiwon TKD and been WTF. I am talking about personal experience and interactions with those around me.
Again I personally changed my habits by dropping back to what I call my core art and I was lucky to be old enough that this aspect was new to me. My comments are personal and from what I see.
I will also say that I took my TKD and put it against other fighters to learn and adept as well. I felt what hard blows coming in were and took the years of bruising in hard training to learn the difference. I bet a few others have as well.
I still also stand by the fact and advocate what sport brings to the player, families and society. Its what I believe to be the misconception of the modern sport school claiming to teach the old fighting art, that I battle.

Dave O.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Another thing that I hear is that sport or WTF TKD teaches this bad habit of keeping your hands down. This is not true..

The above is contradicted by the following in your own post.

You need to keep you hands down because 90% of the strikes are to the trunk and they originate from the leg using the feet which are on the ground. You need to protect the closest point for the feet which is your trunk. As opposed to a punch to the face that originates from the arms using the hand. You need your hand to be up at this point due to the closest striking point being the face or head.

Thus it is taught in WTF taekwondo, and it is practiced by those who wish to be competitive, and you have very well enumerated the reasons as to why.

Think about it, the foot has to travel from the ground to the head. The furthest point possible. The fist has to travel from about chest high to the head, or about 8 inches. If you are in a match that only kicks to the head are allowed then you need to keep your hands at the best possible point to attempt to protect all of you body. This includes your back.

Absolutely. The hands at sides stance is effective and the athletes have developed a highly specialized way of training in order to be competative in this event.

Once the brain knows that you can be punched in the face then the hand will naturally come up.

Yes, but will they come up in time? Hands move a lot faster than feet, and if your reflexes and such are trained in to deal with feet, then this may (though not automatically) affect your ability to suddenly bring up your guard. This the issue with trained in habbits that others keep mentioning.

No one drops their hands on purpose when they need to keep them up for a punch.

No, but dropping them from a guarded stance is not the issue in contention; it is that the guard is never raised in the first place in WTF sport.

Exhaustion does this or fatigue not the habit. The best boxers start to drop their hands when tired. That is why you have KO's in box as well. Not from not wanting to keep their hands up but from not being able to because they are tired.

Nothing to contest here, excepting that violent encounters do not generally go multiple rounds into exhaustion, so outside of the ring, this is not really a consideration. If a violent encounter is allowed to go more than a matter of a few seconds, chances are the bad guys buddies have stepped in and it is too late (or bystanders have come to your aid, in which case you are extremely lucky) or the bad guy has found his knife.

One of the problems with these comparisons is that the dynamic of a violent encounter is so different from that of an athletic contest.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

The above is contradicted by the following in your own post.

Thus it is taught in WTF taekwondo, and it is practiced by those who wish to be competitive, and you have very well enumerated the reasons as to why.

We don't teach it rather you figure this out on your own and adjust to what is needed. Everyone that starts off beleive it or not has the hands up in the beginning. After some time they realize that the hands need to be down. I don't think I have ever told any student to drop their hands.

Yes, but will they come up in time? Hands move a lot faster than feet, and if your reflexes and such are trained in to deal with feet, then this may (though not automatically) affect your ability to suddenly bring up your guard. This the issue with trained in habbits that others keep mentioning.

You are assumeing that the hands are not already up when fighting not WTF. When I say the hands come up. I mean that they come up (start up) in regards to being up vs. down for the type of fighting you are doing. So they come up means they start up. Not that they start down and then try to bring them up in the course of the fight.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

We don't teach it rather you figure this out on your own and adjust to what is needed. Everyone that starts off beleive it or not has the hands up in the beginning. After some time they realize that the hands need to be down. I don't think I have ever told any student to drop their hands.

That is exactly what I meant, though you phrased it better. When others here say that "the sport" teaches you to do this, that is what is meant. I cannot say that I have actually seen anyone give this counsel. But watching and observing and of course through trial and error, you are taught to use certain strategies.

are assumeing that the hands are not already up when fighting not WTF. When I say the hands come up. I mean that they come up (start up) in regards to being up vs. down for the type of fighting you are doing. So they come up means they start up. Not that they start down and then try to bring them up in the course of the fight.

Thank you for clarifying.

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

Well I remember watching Joe Lewis in the kick boxing ring .......This proves to me that you can do both and do both well.

that is some SERIOUS reaching

whatever, do what you like

I will keep doing mine

 

[ATC]

that is some SERIOUS reaching

whatever, do what you like

I will keep doing mine

Why is this a reach? I also mentioned that I assume his SD is also good as he was a soldier. He also did learn his art overseas as well and not in the states.

 

[Marginal]

You are assumeing that the hands are not already up when fighting not WTF. When I say the hands come up. I mean that they come up (start up) in regards to being up vs. down for the type of fighting you are doing. So they come up means they start up. Not that they start down and then try to bring them up in the course of the fight.

You're making a universal statement that doesn't really hold up in practice. Some will adjust, not all. On top of that, even if they do bring their hands up, they're usually not very good at using them properly in defense or offense.

This shows up in a lot of the MMA fights featuring TKD practitioners for example.

 

[ATC]

You're making a universal statement that doesn't really hold up in practice. Some will adjust, not all. On top of that, even if they do bring their hands up, they're usually not very good at using them properly in defense or offense.

This shows up in a lot of the MMA fights featuring TKD practitioners for example.

You are correct, as no situation will ever be all.

 

[chungdokwan123]

What I don't get is the people who just HATE sport tkd. Why hate? Sure you can dislike...not want ot participate in...not understand..whatever...but HATE? That's an awful strong word. Life's too short to hate, and I don't see where the sportive aspect of the art is destroying anything.

Dodgy business practices, poor professional ethics, political infighting are more a danger to the art than the sport. Those things are in every aspect of TKD and other martial arts, regardless of style or organization. You want to hate? Hate the unethical leaders who drag all of us through the mud and lay off the poor kids who just want to have fun doing something they enjoy.

Peace,
Erik

Well said, Sir.

In everything I've ever read about what constitutes the pure martial art aspects of TKD.......there is included a philosophical aspect that seeks to embody in us positive characteristics........and HATE is not and cannot be one of them. Therefore, to both sides of the debate, if HATE in any way forms the basis of your arguments, especially if you claim to be a participant in the "art", your points are moot from the first word.

In other words.......if you claim to be a pure TKD martial artist and you HATE sport TKD, then either you disregard or do not have grounding in the basis tenets of TKD........which by definition negates that claim. If one participates solely in the sport, with no grounding in those same tenets.....then the song remains the same.

Would that be a fair assessment?