What is taekwondo (the term, not the art) to you?

[bluewaveschool]

I have respect/friendliness to all martial artists, but feel closer naturally to Kukki-Taekwondoin.

Maybe that's controversial, unusual, or maybe it's just that most of my communication has been with Kukki-Taekwondoin or other martial arts, I haven't had that much exposure to non-Kukkiwon Taekwondo. Maybe my feelings in time will change.

I think that's completely usual, for someone that is part of a larger org. Me, as an independent, training with a former ITA guy that's now indy as well, I don't feel quite connected because there are differences. Most of them subtle, but they are there. I'm not sure I'd feel 100% comfortable in any Dojang other than my own. It's an advantage that the KKW and ITF guys and girls have for sure.

 

[StudentCarl]

To me Taekwondo is a Korean label for the people who practice a striking art that has evolved through the filter of Korean culture. It's a big diverse family with branches who don't see eye-to-eye and small groups trying to change their names so they can be their own family. When you look past the dysfunction of individuals, there are life-changing positive things happening in all parts of the family (though sometimes it takes a few steps back to move forward and some branches of the family think other branches are destroying the family name).

 

[andyjeffries]

Isn't tae kwon do pronounced the same whether it is spelled tae kwon do or taekwondo or Taekwon-Do?

Yes they are pronounced the same, but to me they strike mental images of different things. The Kukkiwon and WTF always, consistently (now) romanise it as Taekwondo. The ITF generally consistently writes it as Taekwon-do. Independents sometimes/oftentimes romanise at 3 separate words.

Your story is a bit like thinking immediately of a Peugeot when someone says 'car' even though there are also Audi, Ford, Honda, Toyota, etc. Nothing wrong with that on a personal basis, however.

I'd say it's a bit different to your analogy as there are lots of car manufacturers all with a fair sized market share. As I understand it, the Kukkiwon is the gorilla in the room in terms of number of practitioners (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

It's the same as Americans thinking of American Football if someone mentions Football, whereas in the rest of the world we think of what Americans refer to as Soccer. In my locality if someone says Taekwondo I think immediately of Kukki-Taekwondo and wait to be corrected to another style if they mean that. I know there are other Tae Kwon Do styles but they aren't what springs to mind.

A similar situation with Rugby - most people will think of Rugby League or Rugby Union (two fairly equally well known games, the difference in analogy is there are two gorillas) but there are other lots of offshoots (Rugby 7s, as one example).

 

[andyjeffries]

Something to remember is that Kukki TKD is itself a recent invention or evolution. The forms were designed in the seventies and it is clear from observing various things like ladder or hogu drills that these are all general hallmarks that distinguish KKW from arguably older styles of TKD.

I agree it's recent, but I'm OK with that. I started training in 1986 (and was born in 1974) so it was older than me so I don't worry about the fact that it's a modern art.

I quite like that it's evolved and not stayed true to how it was done in the 50s.

I do not believe KKW TKD has a monopoly on the name and surely 'pure' or 'true' would be unlikely adjectives to use with any martial art including tae kwon do.

I agree it hasn't got a monopoly on the name - just that's what I think of when people ask me to define Taekwondo, it's a mental step to say "oh yeah, and there are some other styles using the same name" after describing it to someone. I don't remember using 'pure' or 'true' though...

 

[dancingalone]

Yes they are pronounced the same, but to me they strike mental images of different things. The Kukkiwon and WTF always, consistently (now) romanise it as Taekwondo. The ITF generally consistently writes it as Taekwon-do. Independents sometimes/oftentimes romanise at 3 separate words.

Sure, I agree the various romanizations of TKD are used by specific types of TKD. My point is that in the end, they all sound the same, because they all refer to a Korean martial art that comes out of the same gene pool, despite any semantical differences.

I'd say it's a bit different to your analogy as there are lots of car manufacturers all with a fair sized market share. As I understand it, the Kukkiwon is the gorilla in the room in terms of number of practitioners (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

It's the same as Americans thinking of American Football if someone mentions Football, whereas in the rest of the world we think of what Americans refer to as Soccer. In my locality if someone says Taekwondo I think immediately of Kukki-Taekwondo and wait to be corrected to another style if they mean that. I know there are other Tae Kwon Do styles but they aren't what springs to mind.

A similar situation with Rugby - most people will think of Rugby League or Rugby Union (two fairly equally well known games, the difference in analogy is there are two gorillas) but there are other lots of offshoots (Rugby 7s, as one example).

[/quote]

Yes, KKW TKD is the largest single TKD organization across the world and it may be the dominant faction in your locale. Anecdotally, in my part of the world, it's actually one of the smaller represented groups. ATA, ITA, and independent schools all have more dojang here. There's no survey I am aware of, but at least in the US, I would suspect the total of TKD schools who would be classified as 'other' outstrips those in KKW or ITF.

But the numbers argument isn't important. It's the fact that other expressions of TKD exist aside from KKW, so while personally you can feel "Taekwondo to be that as defined by the Kukkiwon", it would be erroneous to generalize that to the whole population. Granted I don't think you are arguing that.

I agree it's recent, but I'm OK with that. I started training in 1986 (and was born in 1974) so it was older than me so I don't worry about the fact that it's a modern art.

I quite like that it's evolved and not stayed true to how it was done in the 50s.

My point about KKW TKD's relative infancy stemmed from any perception that it might be the "true" one. It's unlikely to be the true one, if a certain thing is one of many similar, competing things.

I agree it hasn't got a monopoly on the name - just that's what I think of when people ask me to define Taekwondo, it's a mental step to say "oh yeah, and there are some other styles using the same name" after describing it to someone. I don't remember using 'pure' or 'true' though...

I quoted Gorilla above. He mentioned those words.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Yes they are pronounced the same, but to me they strike mental images of different things. The Kukkiwon and WTF always, consistently (now) romanise it as Taekwondo. The ITF generally consistently writes it as Taekwon-do. Independents sometimes/oftentimes romanise at 3 separate words.

The ITF always writes TKD as Taekwon-Do. They have done it since their inception in 1966. Ther is evidence to show that it was written as Taikwon Do back in 1959.
There are specific reasons why Gen Choi wrote it as TAEKWON-DO. Among them are that the physical parts of TKD, the Tae & the Kwon are joined together & separated from the most important part of TKD, the "DO" The hyphen (-) or dash allows the most important part to stand off on its own. The dash, or hyphen (-) is also the bridge that connects the 2 or it is the diligent training of the physical which leads to the "DO" or the most important aspect of TK-D.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

There's no survey I am aware of, but at least in the US, I would suspect the total of TKD schools who would be classified as 'other' outstrips those in KKW or ITF.

There was a study done in the US back in the 90s I think. I am not sure who did it or how scientific it was. It used membership numbers from the USTF, the NGB for the ITF in the USA & compared them with subscription numbers of the USTU magazine, which was the National Member of the WTF in the USA. Supposedly this magazine went to all members of the USTU. I do not recall the exact numbers & probably have it written down somewhere, but it was something like the USTU (WTF) has 2x more than the USTF (ITF), but when compared to listing of TKD schools & extrapolated numbers they paled in comparison to the independents or non-members.
It has always been my personal view that the independents are far greater. But then again, how do we define independents & how independent are they after all.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The ITF always writes TKD as Taekwon-Do. They have done it since their inception in 1966. Ther is evidence to show that it was written as Taikwon Do back in 1959.
There are specific reasons why Gen Choi wrote it as TAEKWON-DO. Among them are that the physical parts of TKD, the Tae & the Kwon are joined together & separated from the most important part of TKD, the "DO" The hyphen (-) or dash allows the most important part to stand off on its own. The dash, or hyphen (-) is also the bridge that connects the 2 or it is the diligent training of the physical which leads to the "DO" or the most important aspect of TK-D.

Without sidetracking my own thread too much, you have him writing taekwond-do in English. But did he hyphenate the hanmun and hangul as well?

That would result in the following:

태권-도
跆拳-道

How he wrote it in English is relatively unimportant in my opinion. Just curious.

Daniel

 

[chrispillertkd]

Without sidetracking my own thread too much, you have him writing taekwond-do in English. But did he hyphenate the hanmun and hangul as well?

That would result in the following:

태권-도
跆拳-道

How he wrote it in English is relatively unimportant in my opinion. Just curious.

Daniel

Gen. Choi's calligraphy in hangul and in hanja never used hyphens (heck, I'm not even sure you could do such a thing with hanja). But that doesn't mean the English isn't important. Gen. Choi saw Taekwon-Do as a Korean art but one that was for everyone. He knew that English was the lingua franca of the modern world and while he placed an emphasis on learning at least some Korean and about various Korean historical figures and events that doesn't negate the symbolism of the English that karatemomusa mentioned.

Sometimes a lesson that is implicit in one language becomes explicit in another.

Pax,

Chris

 

[puunui]

Without sidetracking my own thread too much, you have him writing taekwond-do in English. But did he hyphenate the hanmun and hangul as well?

As a side note, books and publications from the sixties would often write Karatedo as "Karate-Do". So in that sense, General Choi copied what Karate was doing at the time, in creating "Taekwon-Do" with the hyphen.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Gen. Choi's calligraphy in hangul and in hanja never used hyphens (heck, I'm not even sure you could do such a thing with hanja). But that doesn't mean the English isn't important. Gen. Choi saw Taekwon-Do as a Korean art but one that was for everyone. He knew that English was the lingua franca of the modern world and while he placed an emphasis on learning at least some Korean and about various Korean historical figures and events that doesn't negate the symbolism of the English that karatemomusa mentioned.

Sometimes a lesson that is implicit in one language becomes explicit in another.

Pax,

Chris

Yes of course & I also don't know if they use hyphens in those alphabets or writings either.

 

[andyjeffries]

so while personally you can feel "Taekwondo to be that as defined by the Kukkiwon", it would be erroneous to generalize that to the whole population. Granted I don't think you are arguing that.

Absolutely agreed, I'm not arguing that. And to clarify I wouldn't put it in those terms anyway (regardless of whether it's my feeling or saying everyone should agree) - When I think of Taekwondo I think of Kukkiwon Taekwondo then secondarily remember "the others", I don't think Taekwondo is defined by the Kukkiwon they are just by far most prominent in my mind and the others are an afterthought.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Gen. Choi's calligraphy in hangul and in hanja never used hyphens (heck, I'm not even sure you could do such a thing with hanja). But that doesn't mean the English isn't important. Gen. Choi saw Taekwon-Do as a Korean art but one that was for everyone. He knew that English was the lingua franca of the modern world and while he placed an emphasis on learning at least some Korean and about various Korean historical figures and events that doesn't negate the symbolism of the English that karatemomusa mentioned.

Sometimes a lesson that is implicit in one language becomes explicit in another.

Pax,

Chris

Fair enough, but unless it was explicitly stated by Choi, then the symbolism probably was not the reason for the hyphen. I'm very careful about ascribing symbolism to the author of a translated work if that symbolism is drawn from the translation and not from the original text.

Now, that doesn't invalidate the symbolism; I've heard some wonderful sermons that have value whose lessons were drawn from the translation and were dependent upon the construction of the English language in order to make sense. However, to ascribe symbolism that is only relevant in an English translation to a Biblical author would be a mistake, even if the original author would have appreciated it.

Saying that the hyphen means something specific in the General's philosophy on TKD is kind of dependent upon whether or not he is the one who put the hyphen in in the first place.

Now, the above is semi-academic. I don't know if the General spoke English or read English well enough to use word construction to facilitate symbolism. Maybe he was well versed in English literature and read Shakespeare. But I suspect that unless he specifically stated it when his material was first being published in the English language, such symbolism was not the original reason for the hyphen and was probably adopted later as ITF TKD was brought to English speaking nations.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yes of course & I also don't know if they use hyphens in those alphabets or writings either.

Pretty sure that the answer is no.

Daniel

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Fair enough, but unless it was explicitly stated by Choi, then the symbolism probably was not the reason for the hyphen. I'm very careful about ascribing symbolism to the author of a translated work if that symbolism is drawn from the translation and not from the original text.

Now, that doesn't invalidate the symbolism; I've heard some wonderful sermons that have value whose lessons were drawn from the translation and were dependent upon the construction of the English language in order to make sense. However, to ascribe symbolism that is only relevant in an English translation to a Biblical author would be a mistake, even if the original author would have appreciated it.

Saying that the hyphen means something specific in the General's philosophy on TKD is kind of dependent upon whether or not he is the one who put the hyphen in in the first place.

Now, the above is semi-academic. I don't know if the General spoke English or read English well enough to use word construction to facilitate symbolism. Maybe he was well versed in English literature and read Shakespeare. But I suspect that unless he specifically stated it when his material was first being published in the English language, such symbolism was not the original reason for the hyphen and was probably adopted later as ITF TKD was brought to English speaking nations.

Daniel

Just to be clear, Gen Choi offered this explanation often. While I am not sure if it appears anywhere in writing by him, it was how he explained why he wrote it that way. I do know that the late GM Tran who was president of 1 of the ITFs, ironically died a year ago in the earthquake in Haiti, wrote the same thing when he taught about Gen Choi's philosophy. That writing is available on the net.
While Gen Choi did read, write & speak English, it was a language that was not native for him. Korean was his mother tongue & he knew Chinese from his calligraphy & Japanese from the occupation & living in Japan. I will tell you that he had help with English for his writings, which included a Robert Walson who was his student & an American CIA man.
I can also tell you that in 1959 it appeared in the English form as TaiKwon Do & by at least 1965 we saw it in its present form as Taekwon-Do.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just to be clear, Gen Choi offered this explanation often. While I am not sure if it appears anywhere in writing by him, it was how he explained why he wrote it that way.

Well, if it came from his mouth directly, then that pretty much answers it.

I am curious as to weather or not that was the original reason for the hyphen or if he saw it after translation and saw a good means of communicating his philosophy using the English language construction.

Daniel

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Well, if it came from his mouth directly, then that pretty much answers it.

Yes it did, several times as that was the standard answer to anyone who thought to ask the reason why.

I am curious as to weather or not that was the original reason for the hyphen or if he saw it after translation and saw a good means of communicating his philosophy using the English language construction.

That I am sorry to say I do not know the answer to. I am also not sure if anyone does. This is another example of why recording these stories for eternity is so important. History is so very vitally important. Nothing should deter us from gaining more info & insight before more 1st hand accounts are no longer possible.
To be clear, ITF TKD or original TKD did evolve over time. Even pattern definitions were enhanced as new concepts were thought up & or compiled into he syllabus as it was always being updated. So this idea may have been some what of an after thought. But in the end, it was why he insisted that the name he came up with was to be written as Taekwon-Do in English, the language that comes closest to "the" international language, as he dreamed of his art becoming an international one, which he did, along with the help of many in the ITF & even before the ITF was formed. In fact GMs Lee Chong Woo & Uhm Woon Gyu were key members of the ITF & helped him to form it in 1966, 7 years before the WTF. They were director of technique & sect genl respectfully. As part of the continuing compromise struggle, GM Lee Nam Suk was made secty genl at a later point when they made Gen Choi honorary president of the KTA in another attempt to build unity. Of course we now know that did not work & it was Dr Kim Un Yong who was able to finally accomplish that.