How would you deal with multiple attackers who are bigger?

[Jerry]

Let me see if I understand what you are saying. When you were seventeen, you were attacked by a small group. You did not pick a target, nor did you control relative position. From the fact that you did not, you conclude that advice to try to do so is erronious and should not be listened to? Do I have your argument reasonably summed up?

 

[scorpio]

No, you do not have my postion "reasonably summed up". My point is that in a high stress state the endocrine system in conjunction with the central nervous system excretes certain hormones in response to the immediate threat. Unless one has extensive experience operating under these conditions, higher function abilities such as "picking out a target and controlling position" are superceded by your basic "flight or fight response". This is not unique to self defense but occurs with regularity in police and military work as well. Maybe you have mastered control of this response, and if so try controlling relative postion when you get attacked by multiple assailants.
good luck!
Also isn't a "small group" somewhat of an oxymoron?

 

[KenpoTex]

I was 17 years old and had a fair amount of experience in one on one fighting. Unfortunately being surrounded by three guys while straddling a bike was a whole new ballgame...

...Before I could even lift my hands off the handlebar I was punched in the face, requiring multiple stitches when I regained conciousnes. If it wasn't for a passing motorist I probably would have had my head stomped in!
All this sage advice on "lining them up" and "taking out the leader is a load of B.S.

I interpret this the same way Jerry did. In the first statement you admit that multiple attackers was a situation you were not prepared to deal with. In the second, you use the fact that you didn't fare too well to support your claim that the aforementioned strategies have no value. However, this doesn't really make that great of an argument because you admitted that you weren't prepared to deal with this type of situation. If you had trained in multiple attacker strategies would it have made a difference? Maybe, and maybe not, but to dismiss these strategies out of hand because you were not able to employ them doesn't make much sense.

Before you get ticked, let me say that I'm not trying to attack you personally. Anyone that is confronted with a situation for which they have not trained is not going to be able to respond with the same level of skill that they would display had they trained for situations of that type. For example, a fighter who only trains stand-up striking isn't going to fare too well when rolling around on the floor with a BJJ player. A guy that trains nothing but TKD point-style fighting probably isn't going to fare too well in a brawl at the local bar. Does this mean that the training these guys have is of no value? No, it means that you should train in such a way as to include elements from all the different ranges of combat and as many scenarios as possible (larger attacker, armed attacker, armed defender, multiple attackers, etc.).

I'm a big fan of shoe-fu when it comes to dealing with multiple attackers. However, what if you aren't in a good position to escape? You may have to fight and survive long enough to create the opening you need to get away and that is where these strategies become valuable.

 

[MJS]

No, you do not have my postion "reasonably summed up". My point is that in a high stress state the endocrine system in conjunction with the central nervous system excretes certain hormones in response to the immediate threat. Unless one has extensive experience operating under these conditions, higher function abilities such as "picking out a target and controlling position" are superceded by your basic "flight or fight response". This is not unique to self defense but occurs with regularity in police and military work as well. Maybe you have mastered control of this response, and if so try controlling relative postion when you get attacked by multiple assailants.
good luck!
Also isn't a "small group" somewhat of an oxymoron?

This is why training in mult. attacker situations, scenario training and stress training will help in these situations. Sadly, it is an area that is often overlooked in MA training. Being able to function under that adrenal dump is key!! Keep in mind that this is something that requires practice, as it certainly won't happen overnight. In addition, putting yourself in the middle of the group and just start swinging is not the best move IMO. Again, keeping a cool head, working position, and controlling that adrenal dump is key, but its not going to be an overnight thing.

I'm certainly an advocate of getting out of there, if possible, but if its not, there had best be a strategy in place.

Mike

 

[lonekimono10]

In all honesty, probably a little bit of both. In an evening walk near the base, they were imbibing in their car in a parking lot next to the sidewalk. They started the engine, and (I'm assuming for kicks) gunned the car as if to hit my girlfriend and I, stopping just short of us. I thought it was so funny, I flipped them the bird and let out a string of blessings at the top of my lungs. They collectively responded, and it was on.

Windows were tinted, or I would have used discretion as the better part of valor (I like to think, but maybe not...my temper and my big mouth have gotten me in a lot of trouble over the years). So I guess it was a little of each; they didn't need to zip up towards our legs (I moved out of the way, saw my sweetie and the poddle did not, and so moved back as a potential buffer for impact...driven by testosterone and instinct to protect, not by any delusions of my own indestructability), but I didn't need to respond with a vociferous string of provocative expletives.

Namsate!

Dr. Dave

i don't understand" flipped the bird" whats up with that? look i'm not saying that you are wrong, but you did not have to go over were these jar heads were, right?? ok you did what you had to do, but next time cross the street and don't go over where there might be danger .
This has nothing to do with KENPO at all this has something to do with "commen sence", i tell my students that if you get into a fight and it was your fault, well them the black eye tells it all, this is were (my old kenpo training) the dragon and the tiger comes to play,on that day were you Dragon or tiger no one can answer that but you.:idunno:

 

[scorpio]

I interpret this the same way Jerry did. In the first statement you admit that multiple attackers was a situation you were not prepared to deal with. In the second, you use the fact that you didn't fare too well to support your claim that the aforementioned strategies have no value. However, this doesn't really make that great of an argument because you admitted that you weren't prepared to deal with this type of situation. If you had trained in multiple attacker strategies would it have made a difference? Maybe, and maybe not, but to dismiss these strategies out of hand because you were not able to employ them doesn't make much sense.

Before you get ticked, let me say that I'm not trying to attack you personally. Anyone that is confronted with a situation for which they have not trained is not going to be able to respond with the same level of skill that they would display had they trained for situations of that type. For example, a fighter who only trains stand-up striking isn't going to fare too well when rolling around on the floor with a BJJ player. A guy that trains nothing but TKD point-style fighting probably isn't going to fare too well in a brawl at the local bar. Does this mean that the training these guys have is of no value? No, it means that you should train in such a way as to include elements from all the different ranges of combat and as many scenarios as possible (larger attacker, armed attacker, armed defender, multiple attackers, etc.).

I'm a big fan of shoe-fu when it comes to dealing with multiple attackers. However, what if you aren't in a good position to escape? You may have to fight and survive long enough to create the opening you need to get away and that is where these strategies become valuable.

Sorry guys, my intention was not to sound defensive nor definitive. I am not negating training and strategy for multiple attackers, rather what I am saying is that in order for them to be effective one has to control the adrenal dump and hopefully harness it to their advantage. Unfortunately this takes training with someone who has experience in this type training and many years of practice.
I love the MAs' and have spent considerable time in their pursuit, and I know people in the arts who could probably formulate and implement a successsful defense against multiple attackers, I also know others, with many years training, who would be lucky to survive a one on one confrontation! My comments are only reflective of my one encounter with multiple attackers. I would just caution anyone not to have a false sense of security just because they have MA experience and think they are prepared for a group attack.

 

[47MartialMan]

Yes, I would have to agree upon running.

However, running is at the bottom of the list of options.

First, every scenario is a different circumstance that would have a different turn given a different individuals in different environments.

That said, prevention of the confrontation was the first option. Were you not where you supposed to be? In other words, the most likely place and point of time that such a circumstance can occur.
No one just confronts someone, "out of the blue", for no reason unless provoked. (I am not talking about gang intiations here)

Was I up against a group of larger opponents?
Yes-
It was at a college football game.

Did we fight?
No-
I remained calm and low-vocal, one of the opponents realized this and also had a hand in backing down the others.

Could the outcome been different?
Yes-
They could have still fought.
I could not state for sure what the outcome would've been.

 

[KenpoTex]

I love the MAs' and have spent considerable time in their pursuit, and I know people in the arts who could probably formulate and implement a successsful defense against multiple attackers, I also know others, with many years training, who would be lucky to survive a one on one confrontation!

This brings us back to the old saying "you fight the way you train." If you train in a system/style/whatever that has a realistic approach to self-defense (adrenal stress training, scenario based stuff, etc.) then you are probably going to fare much better in any violent encounter than someone who trains in a system that either doesn't address these issues or tries to sell the "magic bullet" ("if you train this style/technique you'll dominate anyone").

 

[47MartialMan]

This brings us back to the old saying "you fight the way you train." If you train in a system/style/whatever that has a realistic approach to self-defense (adrenal stress training, scenario based stuff, etc.) then you are probably going to fare much better in any violent encounter than someone who trains in a system that either doesn't address these issues or tries to sell the "magic bullet" ("if you train this style/technique you'll dominate anyone").

Funny how you make references to firearms.......the ultimate for multiple (or singular) attackers.

I like your signature:
Wenn du den Frieden willst, so rüste zum Kriege
If you wish for peace, prepare for war.

Blade had it wrong. The world is not a sugar-coated topping. JM Browning and Hiram Maxim knew this. They made the "salt and pepper"

 

[Jerry]

Funny how you make references to firearms.......the ultimate for multiple (or singular) attackers.

Ironically, you've just fallen into his other warning and given a "magic bullet" answer.

While I agree that the firearm is the preemenant weapon for personal defense; but there are times and situations where other weapons and skills are more useful. Though I think you know that and have simply made a "turn of phrase".

 

[rompida]

I might also mention that carrying a firearm is not an option for all of us. Even then, I don't encounter many people that carry it on their person. Plenty that keep it in their car. Had a heckler last week that was taunting my class from afar, saying how "that stuff wouldn't work on me". (we were training outdoors) When he finally got within conversation distance, I finally gave in and said, oh yeah? why's that? He said his gun is faster. When I asked him if he carries it on him, guess what he said? See the point?

 

[Zoran]

He said his gun is faster. When I asked him if he carries it on him, guess what he said? See the point?

Those people are such idiots. I've run into a few of those types in the past and as usual, they never had the gun on them. It was at home or in the car (where I live, you can not carry a gun on you or in the car).

What I like about my hands, I will never leave them in my dresser drawer or leave them in my car. Nor do I have to reach to pull it out.

As a great martial artist said once; "Kenpo is great, it gives me time to reach for my gun". Just replace Kenpo with your favorite empty handed self defense orientated system/style.

 

[47MartialMan]

I might also mention that carrying a firearm is not an option for all of us. Even then, I don't encounter many people that carry it on their person. Plenty that keep it in their car. Had a heckler last week that was taunting my class from afar, saying how "that stuff wouldn't work on me". (we were training outdoors) When he finally got within conversation distance, I finally gave in and said, oh yeah? why's that? He said his gun is faster. When I asked him if he carries it on him, guess what he said? See the point?

Yeah. I have to agree. Unless thoseabiding by the law to obtain a permit.

However, pending the area, the percentages of people carrying are higher.

The firearm is not the "cure0all". But the ultimate weapon to carry-if need to.

 

[MJS]

While I agree that the firearm is the preemenant weapon for personal defense; but there are times and situations where other weapons and skills are more useful. Though I think you know that and have simply made a "turn of phrase".

I might also mention that carrying a firearm is not an option for all of us. Even then, I don't encounter many people that carry it on their person. Plenty that keep it in their car. Had a heckler last week that was taunting my class from afar, saying how "that stuff wouldn't work on me". (we were training outdoors) When he finally got within conversation distance, I finally gave in and said, oh yeah? why's that? He said his gun is faster. When I asked him if he carries it on him, guess what he said? See the point?

2 excellent posts and I agree 100% with both!!!! People tend to fall into that belief that a gun is the magical answer for all situations....It isnt!!! We need to be able to justify all of our actions and even moreso with a gun.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Those people are such idiots. I've run into a few of those types in the past and as usual, they never had the gun on them. It was at home or in the car (where I live, you can not carry a gun on you or in the car).

Exactly!! I havent seen too many people aside from LEOs carry a gun around on their waist. What good will it do for that person if its not on them when they need it?? In addition, I wonder how many of these people actually train in different conditions: Ex- stress, low light, against moving targets, etc. My guess would probably be not that many.

Mike

 

[47MartialMan]

Strange, how a thread goes off into another topic. The firearm was merely stated as one method or suggestion, on how to deal with bigger, multiple attackers. Though it may not be always on person, or other, should seem like another thread started elsewhere.

 

[MJS]

Strange, how a thread goes off into another topic. The firearm was merely stated as one method or suggestion, on how to deal with bigger, multiple attackers. Though it may not be always on person, or other, should seem like another thread started elsewhere.

Very true. You are correct though...weapons are something that can be looked at, though I think the original thread starter was talking more about empty hand defense.

Please feel free to start a new thread if the discussion about weapons is something that people want to look at. :asian:

Mike

 

[47MartialMan]

Yes, self defense "what ifs" can be started and/or examined in almost infinity. If there is a certain "what if", then any response can apply.


Self defense and the use of weapons almost go in hand every time.

 

[KenpoTex]

Self defense and the use of weapons almost go in hand every time.

I seem to recall that Col. W.E. Fairbairn (although it could have be Col. Applegate) said that "empty-hand techniques are only for the times when you have been foolish enough to find yourself without a weapon." I think that pretty much sums it up. :ultracool

 

[47MartialMan]

I seem to recall that Col. W.E. Fairbairn (although it could have be Col. Applegate) said that "empty-hand techniques are only for the times when you have been foolish enough to find yourself without a weapon." I think that pretty much sums it up. :ultracool

Out of the many fights Ive seen and been in, half resulted in someone picking up something to use as a weapon. True, people dont go around carrying guns going to the movies, restaurant, shopping malls. It is not like the "Old West".

Oh no, here we go again, on speaking of weapon usage.