How the Japanese view of the black belt

[Gerry Seymour]

As a general rule, that's the case. We typically budget our housing and other expenses a percentage of our income.

That's not really true, though. At lower income, you pay the bills, and just have left whatever is (or isn't) the remainder. And when you factor in that medical expenses aren't scalable (I had a moderate set of injuries to my arms in 2022 that lead to care that used about 25% of my pre-tax income for the year in 2023), it's even clearer.

We scale some things based on our income (folks with more money spend more freely on groceries, for instance), but that doesn't mean all the other expenses stay the same across income levels, much less across social systems. The math is far more complex than that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Except at this point, the gap is way to wide for the differences to make up. Even if healthcare was free in the UK, we're still ahead.

You may be right, but you're not proving that. You're just arguing that based on suppositions. And you're ignoring other points, like the average time worked, support systems, time spent traveling, etc. I don't know what any of those numbers are, and whether they'd support your argument or not, but apparently, neither do you.

And all of those numbers will vary wildly between cities (and moreso if you include rural areas) in both the US and UK. It's not nearly as simple as you're making it out.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Translation: the belt means something. Ultimately, the belt is tied to the achievement.

I think you've missed the point and are focused on the linguistics. If I lose my black belt and have to wear a blue one for a while, it's no big deal. The belt doesn't matter. Heck, if I went to an NGAA dojo and they asked me to put on any other color (including white), I'd be fine with it. I've done the work - the belt is just an indicator. It's only special as a symbol of what you've done. Taking away that belt doesn't change what I can do. That's the message I think @Buka was trying to send with the monthly belt swap.

 

[Hot Lunch]

You may be right, but you're not proving that. You're just arguing that based on suppositions. And you're ignoring other points, like the average time worked, support systems, time spent traveling, etc. I don't know what any of those numbers are, and whether they'd support your argument or not, but apparently, neither do you.

And all of those numbers will vary wildly between cities (and moreso if you include rural areas) in both the US and UK. It's not nearly as simple as you're making it out.

I'll go back to what I said to Dirty Dog earlier: I did my Google searches, found numbers, and posted them here. I'll grant you that those numbers don't tell the whole story. But they certainly tell a good chunk of it. And rather than accepting that, there's a strong desire to find ways around those numbers and a strong refusable to believe that Americans are better off financially. I'm not going to change anyone's mind, no matter how many more numbers I dig up (we've already established that), but I am curious to know the motive.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I'm curious why this was so stringent. I could see me asking that to make sure I don't schedule something that would keep me from attending. I could see other reasons folks might ask, that wouldn't be about the belt rank.

Imagine this being the case anywhere else. The final exams in high school or college are unannounced. You don't show up that day, you repeat the classes. Students and parents would be livid. And rightfully so.

I think I said this many months ago in another thread, but I would say that an important factor in deciding where to train in martial arts is transparency when it comes to this. The information should be posted either on the website or social media page of the dojo itself, or the association that the dojo is a member of - i.e., a list of kyu ranks, the kata that you have to know for each rank, and how often the tests are (quarterly, etc, etc). Some dojos issue hardcopy student handbooks with this information. With this, the student doesn't have to ask and can avoid those awkward conversations.

The lack of such transparency ends up baiting students into asking these questions, only to end up getting a finger wagging - or, apparently, actually penalized for it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'll go back to what I said to Dirty Dog earlier: I did my Google searches, found numbers, and posted them here. I'll grant you that those numbers don't tell the whole story. But they certainly tell a good chunk of it. And rather than accepting that, there's a strong desire to find ways around those numbers and a strong refusable to believe that Americans are better off financially. I'm not going to change anyone's mind, no matter how many more numbers I dig up (we've already established that), but I am curious to know the motive.

You might notice that I've taken no stance on who may have the higher discretionary income. I don't know. I do know that saying that number tells much of the story is a bit like saying the purchase price of a car tells you how expensive it will be to own.

You may be right in your assertion, but you don't really have enough information to know whether you are, or not.

 

[Hot Lunch]

You might notice that I've taken no stance on who may have the higher discretionary income. I don't know. I do know that saying that number tells much of the story is a bit like saying the purchase price of a car tells you how expensive it will be to own.

You may be right in your assertion, but you don't really have enough information to know whether you are, or not.

Ultimately, this is a US vs UK argument, and it's odd that I'm being questioned by Americans. If you or Dirty Dog were in my position, it doesn't matter if you said something blatantly incorrect, I'd have backed you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Imagine this being the case anywhere else. The final exams in high school or college are unannounced. You don't show up that day, you repeat the classes. Students and parents would be livid. And rightfully so.

I think I said this many months ago in another thread, but I would say that an important factor in deciding where to train in martial arts is transparency when it comes to this. The information should be posted either on the website or social media page of the dojo itself, or the association that the dojo is a member of - i.e., a list of kyu ranks, the kata that you have to know for each rank, and how often the tests are (quarterly, etc, etc). Some dojos issue hardcopy student handbooks with this information. With this, the student doesn't have to ask and can avoid those awkward conversations.

The lack of such transparency ends up baiting students into asking these questions, only to end up getting a finger wagging - or, apparently, actually penalized for it.

It doesn't necessarily matter to me whether it's transparent or not, so long as the system and the reason behind it make sense. My students never knew when their tests were coming. Not once. Because I didn't want them preparing for a test - I wanted the test to see where they actually were at that time. The best they'd get was something like "You need to get X shored up so you can test."

If my students asked when they could test, I'd just reply something like "Woudln't you like to know?" or "When you're ready." They knew my personality and how to take those responses.

For their first rank (yellow belt), they usually weren't aware they'd been tested, and never knew the promotion was coming. The promotion would happen during class, when they least expected it, when I'd use a concealed yellow belt to fend off their attack during a demonstration, use it to take them to the ground and drop it on them. I'd walk away, saying something like "Put that on - that white belt is disgusting." No ceremony, just my own personal "ritual" with them. We had some fun. :wistful sigh:

I don't understand the point of the penalty, which is why I asked. The reason is what matters to me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ultimately, this is a US vs UK argument, and it's odd that I'm being questioned by Americans.

It's really not, though. I suspect the difference is negligible, and that it depends which data you look at. There are definitely things that seem better in each of the countries in question.

I just pointed out to you that you were using a measure that is unlikely to tell what you think it tells, without other information. You seem upset enough about that to keep arguing that you are right, but not upset enough to find out.

 

[Hot Lunch]

It doesn't necessarily matter to me whether it's transparent or not, so long as the system and the reason behind it make sense. My students never knew when their tests were coming. Not once. Because I didn't want them preparing for a test - I wanted the test to see where they actually were at that time. The best they'd get was something like "You need to get X shored up so you can test."

If my students asked when they could test, I'd just reply something like "Woudln't you like to know?" or "When you're ready." They knew my personality and how to take those responses.

For their first rank (yellow belt), they usually weren't aware they'd been tested, and never knew the promotion was coming. The promotion would happen during class, when they least expected it, when I'd use a concealed yellow belt to fend off their attack during a demonstration, use it to take them to the ground and drop it on them. I'd walk away, saying something like "Put that on - that white belt is disgusting." No ceremony, just my own personal "ritual" with them. We had some fun. :wistful sigh:

I don't understand the point of the penalty, which is why I asked. The reason is what matters to me.

If this is how it goes for yellow belt, does a student above that miss out if he's not there on the day of the pop quiz?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If this is how it goes for yellow belt, does a student above that miss out if he's not there on the day of the pop quiz?

Their test could only happen on a day they were there (and I had time and energy for it). Nobody knew when tests were happening. Had I been able to keep the program running long enough to get folks to advanced ranks, that would have changed to some extent. Some later tests would have needed more time and a specific group of students handy, and some of the later testing was designed to see how they dealt with the pressure of preparing (some of the "tests" weren't stricly MA, but were challenges that would serve within and beyond MA).

My point is that there was no transparency about when tests would occur. Nobody managed to get tested within their first year, though that wasn't a given. I had a few students ask early on how often they'd be testing, but the overall approach (and lack of emphasis on testing) made it something most just didn't worry about - it would happen when it happened.

 

[Hot Lunch]

My students never knew when their tests were coming. Not once. Because I didn't want them preparing for a test - I wanted the test to see where they actually were at that time.

Ultimately, everyone has to decide to run their own school. But if a potential student knows about this and how other schools test and promote, this will (or, at least, should) factor into their decision on where to train.

Time is a finite resource, and students can plan ways to carve out that time to prepare for the test if they know the date. But with everyone having their own lives outside of martial arts, a student cannot be expected to keep up the same higher level intensity of home practice everyday because "the test might be tomorrow."

 

[Dirty Dog]

Ultimately, this is a US vs UK argument, and it's odd that I'm being questioned by Americans. If you or Dirty Dog were in my position, it doesn't matter if you said something blatantly incorrect, I'd have backed you.

So... you approve of intellectual dishonesty.

 

[Hot Lunch]

So... you approve of intellectual dishonesty.

Well, one thing I don't approve of is being on a witch hunt for it.

The point is maintaining a perception of unity. Like the limeys do.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ultimately, everyone has to decide to run their own school. But if a potential student knows about this and how other schools test and promote, this will (or, at least, should) factor into their decision on where to train.

Time is a finite resource, and students can plan ways to carve out that time to prepare for the test if they know the date. But with everyone having their own lives outside of martial arts, a student cannot be expected to keep up the same higher level intensity of home practice everyday because "the test might be tomorrow."

That was part of the point. I didn't want the tests to be a test of how well they'd prepared for a test. I wanted to test their everyday ability. That was factored into the testing. Keep in mind that I didn't run a full-time school, and didn't expect to attract folks who wanted to train super hard - those folks would find much better places to serve that need.

Add to that the fact that my classes were very small - often fewer than 5 people in a class. That meant any high-intensity test was going to be high-intensity for everyone, including myself (if I'm testing the most senior student, there were things only I could partner them for).

If I'd had the opportunity to make tests very intense, I might have chosen different formats, but I doubt it. I'd have preferred to simply have very intense training from time to time, since tests were spaced so far apart. The only tests that would have been high-intensity and at all lengthy would have been at brown and black. Early tests were necessarily sparse and focused on seeing reasonable movement and functional principles.

I'd certainly expect folks to choose schools based on what they were looking for. Someone wanting all the tests to be really difficult (compared to classes) wouldn't have liked my program. Someone wanting constant intensity in classes also wouldn't have liked my program - intensity could vary from relaxed and rather chatty (when working on specific principles and understanding thereof) to very sweaty. And much of that depended on how well everyone was - most of my students were over 35, so we had to accomodate what our bodies could handle.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, one thing I don't approve of is being on a witch hunt for it.

The point is maintaining a perception of unity. Like the limeys do.

If you think my responses amount to a "witch hunt", you might want to go back and re-read the thread. I've just responded to what you said. If your initial response had been something like "fair enough, but it makes the point well enough, and isn't an important enough point for us to bother more with", I'd likely have agreed.

 

[isshinryuronin]

isn't an important enough point for us to bother more with"

Sadly, there are some "contributors" here who will bother with any point of contention, regardless of its irrelevance to the main message. For them, there is no point too small or unimportant to sc

 

[Hot Lunch]

If you think my responses amount to a "witch hunt", you might want to go back and re-read the thread. I've just responded to what you said. If your initial response had been something like "fair enough, but it makes the point well enough, and isn't an important enough point for us to bother more with", I'd likely have agreed.

Re-read who I was responding to.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I think I've said this before (possibly in this thread), but in case I haven't:

It's entirely reasonable to create a rank that is a dividing line. Before that rank, anyone can progress. Past that rank, there could be only the most serious students (allowing the instructor to focus differently). If I were designing such a rank, I'd make it significantly harder than the rank below it, and possibly harder (relatively speaking) than the ranks above. The idea would be to challenge folks. Those who choose to meet that challenge can progress in rank. The rest could keep training at the previous rank, with no shame to it.

Within the NGAA, this sort of exists at ikkyu. While the overall progression is similar, the test at ikkyu is significantly harder than previous ranks, having dramatically different requirements. The test for shodan is significantly harder, but in line with, ikkyu. This makes sense, given that ikkyu is a student-instructor rank, and shodan is a full-instructor rank. You'd want to make sure only serious students make it into those ranks.

Well the point is that making the rank of Shodan that dividing line (making it so that only the most serious students can get to the rank of Shodan) is very much an American thing and not something you see in Japan. If such a dividing line exists in dojos in Japan it would be at higher Dan ranks. In Japan the rank of Shodan is just seen as that of a serious beginner, not until you get higher in the Dan ranks does it get significantly harder. Not at dojos in Japan.

 

[Buka]

I'm curious why this was so stringent. I could see me asking that to make sure I don't schedule something that would keep me from attending. I could see other reasons folks might ask, that wouldn't be about the belt rank.

My dojo, my rules.

Martial Arts school are different, as they should be in my opinion.

If you were interested in becoming a student in my school you were required to watch at least one class, and we would recommend what class you watched. It would be one in which the training was physically challenging - as opposed to say, a stretch class.

Then, if you were still interested, you would go into the office and go over the procedures and cost of joining the school.

The belt structure was explained to you, the key points being you are guaranteed nothing as far as rank is concerned.

You were informed of the testing procedure and a certain point was emphasized repeatedly “If you ask when the next belt test is, you’re automatically excluded from that test. Because if you’re more interested in what color belt you wear than you are in training this IS NOT the school for you.”

Our costs were lower than any other school I knew of.
Classes were Mon, Tues, Wed and Thursday nights. Mon, Wed, Fri and Saturday mornings, with an open training day on Friday. You were encouraged to take as many of them as you possibly could.

And if you were actually interested in joining at that point, your first month was completely free so you could experience what you thought you were interested in. Go ahead, find a better deal than that, I dare you.
We wouldn’t allow anyone to join without taking that first month for free. No exceptions.

Granted, not a wise business plan, but we didn’t open a dojo for business reasons.

First Responders trained free of charge. All Police, Firefighters and EMTs only had to eventually buy a gi, at our cost. For everyone else we made ten bucks on a gi price.

Everyone was told of the rules, repeatedly. It kind of amazes me that some online have a problem with this. If you were someone who walked in as a prospective student with that opinion, we’d even help you, too.

We had the name addresses and phone numbers of every dojo within reasonable driving distance that we’d give you on a printed sheet.

And, yes, I’m almost embarrassed to admit, even Fred Villari’s school was on there.

All students of other schools were allowed, and encouraged, to come down and take as many classes as they wanted. All free, no strings attached.

Thursday night was sparring night. Open door policy, everyone welcome, no charge whatsoever. Come on down and spar. Even if you weren’t a Martial Artist, just someone who thought they wanted to fight some guys who were. They were welcome, too.

Single moms working two jobs, you and your kid can join up. Can’t afford it? No problem, we’ll make you a deal, help clean the dojo once a month, get a gi at our cost and have a ball. Can’t afford a gi? We’ll give you a clean, used one in good shape, no problem.

The only catch to any of this is you have to follow Dojo protocol. Follow it to a T. You have to follow the rules. One of the BIG ones was do not ask when a test was coming. Just read the bulletin board. All testing dates were posted two weeks before any test.

And even if you were NOT qualified to take that test (like if you just got promoted three months before) come down and take it anyway for practice. And also because it was the most grueling of training nights. Tests were physically demanding, which was why they were always crowded.

I remember one test where there were fifteen people who were actually up for promotion IF they passed, but there was over forty people who were taking the test for practice.

No charge for testing, unless you passed and got promoted, then it was four bucks for your new belt.

If you opened a dojo near us, say within ten miles, four or five of us would show up to your open house or to the first day of you classes. To welcome you to the area and give you a heavy bag from Tufwear, four kicking shields and some focus mitts. As well as the wholesale price list from Tufwear. We’d tell you, “Feel free to get any of this from us at our cost and charge your students, or the general public what ever you want.”

We did that to help their school, foster good will and because we had to buy so much every year to remain as distributers.
Might as well pass it on.

Like I said, my dojo, my rules. And DON’T ask about tests.