Belt Rank Progress

[Dirty Dog]

By people whose opinions don't matter.

Their opinions matter as much as yours.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Their opinions matter as much as yours.

Not when it's about my or anyone else's individual journey. It's that individual's motives that matter.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Not when it's about my or anyone else's individual journey. It's that individual's motives that matter.

And if their motivation is a belt, that's fairly shallow.

 

[Hot Lunch]

And if their motivation is a belt, that's fairly shallow.

And they'd do well not to care what you think.

 

[drop bear]

So at some dojos, if you want a black belt, you've got to figure out how to fake the funk and act like you don't want it? Or that you're not sweating it, despite the fact that getting promoted requires voluntary initiative on the part of the student?

I saw it mentioned earlier that only children and beginners care about belts. No. I'd argue that it's the people who start when they're middle aged or older that are pursuing a black belt to check off an item on their bucket list. And I don't see anything wrong with this. When I was in my early 20's, I attended the party of my then-girlfriend's father who was celebrating getting his black belt, and I believe he was in his 50's at the time.

I'm never going to be convinced that someone who is pursuing a belt either needs to hide it, fake like they're not, or should feel ashamed about it. That's just crazy.

A bit crazy.

The idea is you just love the art and the belts come. But then the higher the belt the more you love the art.

And those two statements are not the same.

So yeah. You have to be training like crazy to earn your new belt without wanting that belt or something.

 

[Dirty Dog]

So yeah. You have to be training like crazy to earn your new belt without wanting that belt or something.

You've always had a great talent for strawman argument. I have been in MA and on this site for a couple days now, and I cannot think of anybody, ever, saying you shouldn't want the belt.

What has been said is that if the belt is your primary motivation, you should just go buy one and get it out of your system.

Not the same thing at all, as I am positive you're smart enough to understand without my explicitly pointing it out.

 

[skribs]

Not really. You maybe regarded as shallow and superficial if your focus is on the belt, though.

When the belt is a requirement for something else, it isn't. For example, if a yellow belt wants to get purple belt so they can start sparring. Or if a 3rd Dan wants to get 4th Dan so he can open up his own school.

Or a Hapkido student who's transferred to BJJ who wants to get blue belt so he can become a dirty wristlocker.

 

[Hot Lunch]

What has been said is that if the belt is your primary motivation, you should just go buy one and get it out of your system.

When people say they want a belt, what they really mean is that they want a rank, particularly a dan ranking.

You can buy the belt, but you can't buy the rank.

Based on what you just said, you have zero problem with someone saying that their primary motivation is the rank. Right?

 

[Dirty Dog]

When people say they want a belt, what they really mean is that they want a rank, particularly a dan ranking.

You can buy the belt, but you can't buy the rank.

Based on what you just said, you have zero problem with someone saying that their primary motivation is the rank. Right?

If by rank you mean skill and understanding, then no.

 

[drop bear]

You've always had a great talent for strawman argument. I have been in MA and on this site for a couple days now, and I cannot think of anybody, ever, saying you shouldn't want the belt.

What has been said is that if the belt is your primary motivation, you should just go buy one and get it out of your system.

Not the same thing at all, as I am positive you're smart enough to understand without my explicitly pointing it out.

So you should want the belt?

 

[Dirty Dog]

So you should want the belt?

Now you're acting as if there can only ever be one desire. This is also common for you.

I believe your main goal should be the development of skills and the understanding of the principles that underlie techniques. Other secondary goals are likely, but that should be the focus, not a belt.

 

[drop bear]

Now you're acting as if there can only ever be one desire. This is also common for you.

I believe your main goal should be the development of skills and the understanding of the principles that underlie techniques. Other secondary goals are likely, but that should be the focus, not a belt.

Then the belt is a waste of time and money. Why bother?

If you didn't want the belt. You wouldn't turn up to the grading.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Are you regarded as morally inferior here if you want a belt? Imagine a Private being shamed because he wants to be a Sergeant Major someday.

Yes, if the only reason for the training is for a check box for a belt color then yes.
Now, if that is to get a belt color to spar or to compete or ... Then that is different.
If one wants the Black belt as the physical requirements in that system is the goal then their real desire are those requirements not the belt itself.
.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to improve by doing the work.
There is a problem with A private who refuses to take the classes / training and then tests to start to process and just thinks they deserve it because they showed up every day.

Not really. You may be regarded as shallow and superficial if your focus is on the belt, though.

Yes, if only the goal of RANK / Belt level. It is considered Superficial and shallow.

Not when it's about my or anyone else's individual journey. It's that individual's motives that matter.

When this discuss was talking about the hypothetical student within our hypothetical school as the topic, this is fine; now in my opinion you are trying to make it about Us vs Them and making it personal.
.
Yes the individual motives matter as I have stated above.
.
If the individual's journey is just for the prestige and glory of the rank to strut around and lord it over others, then yes it is shallow.
If it is to get a goal for physical fitness, self defense or something else, then it is not.

A bit crazy.

The idea is you just love the art and the belts come. But then the higher the belt the more you love the art.

And those two statements are not the same.

So yeah. You have to be training like crazy to earn your new belt without wanting that belt or something.

Yes, It is crazy.
Yet, we all know the guy who shows up every class and they have done their homework while not in class and one can see the progress.
As well as the student who just shows and tries in class and wonders why they are passed by and complain they do not have the rank others have because they want that rank as well.
Finally, the student who shows up and barely tries or doesn't try, yet wants their reward for being "present" and also has they glow in the eyes when they think they will get their rank / belt and then they will be in charge.
.
It is crazy on the macro level .
Once one looks at the individual and looks at the work then one can see it is not so crazy.
If the great / good / average student doing their homework and showing up and participating and making progress ask about their next rank those who also ask and have not done their homework is where the issue arises.
It is easier to just not talk about the testing or promotions.
.
Side Note: Professional schools sometimes have scheduled tests, and they also run through all the requirements prior and do a test assessment for the students and while it might be assumed that they will test, the students soon realize that they are not ready. And then do not sign up officially to test. And if they do sign up the instructor has to work with them to explain why they are most likely going to fail. This is a different topic all together.

When people say they want a belt, what they really mean is that they want a rank, particularly a dan ranking.

You can buy the belt, but you can't buy the rank.

Based on what you just said, you have zero problem with someone saying that their primary motivation is the rank. Right?

Yes, their primary goal can be "X" rank to do "Y".
And then they do the work to get to the steps along the way to their goal.
.
Yet, when the slacking student or the absent student shows up and wants to test.
When the Black belt that took a year off (Or more) and shows up a year later and wants to test within a month or so for their next rank (level 2). Their justification, was that they thought about their training once every few months.
.
Yes there are exceptions to all examples.
.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Then the belt is a waste of time and money. Why bother?

If you didn't want the belt. You wouldn't turn up to the grading.

I'm fine with that too. We use belts, because the organization uses belts. But I have never, not even once, told someone they needed to test or promote.

 

[drop bear]

I'm fine with that too. We use belts, because the organization uses belts. But I have never, not even once, told someone they needed to test or promote.

So the people who have belts are the people that want belts.

And the people that just want to train don't.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Are you regarded as morally inferior here if you want a belt?

I wouldn't say morally inferior, it's just that some people apparently don't think it's proper to want to earn belts, or at least they give that impression.

Imagine a Private being shamed because he wants to be a Sergeant Major someday.

There's nothing wrong with that. Just like there's nothing wrong with somebody who's working in a job at the entry level and wants to be a manager someday.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So at some dojos, if you want a black belt, you've got to figure out how to fake the funk and act like you don't want it? Or that you're not sweating it, despite the fact that getting promoted requires voluntary initiative on the part of the student?

I've never known of any dojos that are like that but some of the people on this forum give the impression that that's the kind of dojo they would run.

I saw it mentioned earlier that only children and beginners care about belts. No. I'd argue that it's the people who start when they're middle aged or older that are pursuing a black belt to check off an item on their bucket list. And I don't see anything wrong with this. When I was in my early 20's, I attended the party of my then-girlfriend's father who was celebrating getting his black belt, and I believe he was in his 50's at the time.

People take up the martial arts for all different reasons. Some people care about earning belts, some people don't. And it's not just children and beginners that want to earn belts. There is nothing wrong with wanting to earn belts or with not wanting to earn belts no matter what your age or experience level is.

I'm never going to be convinced that someone who is pursuing a belt either needs to hide it, fake like they're not, or should feel ashamed about it. That's just crazy.

Exactly. You nailed it.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Not really. You may be regarded as shallow and superficial if your focus is on the belt, though.

Not on the belt but on the skill and ability required for the belt as I pointed out in post #355.

If you think that somebody who wants to earn belts, that all they're focusing on is the belt and not the skill and ability required to get it, I would have to say that's quite shallow thinking.

 

[PhotonGuy]

The idea is you just love the art and the belts come.

That would depend in whatever system your instructor has for earning belts. Every instructor has their own system for belt advancement and rank advancement and such systems vary from instructor to instructor.

 

[PhotonGuy]

What has been said is that if the belt is your primary motivation, you should just go buy one and get it out of your system.

Being a self proclaimed black belt is not the same thing as earning it at a dojo.