Putting the black belt on a pedestal

[PhotonGuy]

why do I feel I'm listening to a broken record or that my tape recorder is broken and keeps repeating itself

Patience tshadowchaser patience.

 

[ballen0351]

why do I feel I'm listening to a broken record or that my tape recorder is broken and keeps repeating itself

Whats the definition of insanity

 

[PhotonGuy]

No. That is quite frankly the opposite of what "Let it go" means… it is absolutely not synonymous with "let it out"… it means "drop it and move on".

Okay?

Very well, than I stand corrected.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I think you may have missed the point that not all schools do it the way you described it. In Okinawan Goju for example the black belt test is very simple and not a test beyond showing a basic understanding. The fact that you have progressed to that level is part of your grading. To me there is little difference between 1st Kyu, Shodan Ho, and Shodan.

It is nice to have a black belt because to me it does demonstrate the level you have reached within your own style or organisation and that is all it means. But if you reach a black belt in one organisation and then claim it is worth a third dan in another organisation then you're just blowing smoke up your ****!

So another words, in Okinawan Goju the black belt is more or less sequential. Much like history classes in school, in high school and college you might take a series of history classes, History I on your first semester and then after that History II and then History III and finally History IV. History IV is not necessarily harder than History III, II, or I its just sequential and taken on the fourth and final semester for the history classes and it might build on the previous History classes in that it covers a period that comes after them on the timeline and that's why its called History IV.

 

[ballen0351]

No

 

[Dirty Dog]

Very well, than I stand corrected.

Does that mean you're finally going to drop it and move on?

 

[K-man]

So another words, in Okinawan Goju the black belt is more or less sequential. Much like history classes in school, in high school and college you might take a series of history classes, History I on your first semester and then after that History II and then History III and finally History IV. History IV is not necessarily harder than History III, II, or I its just sequential and taken on the fourth and final semester for the history classes and it might build on the previous History classes in that it covers a period that comes after them on the timeline and that's why its called History IV.

More like you have a syllabus. History 1 takes you to yellow belt then you add History 2 but still studying History 1. That gives you your green belt. Then you start on History 3, still studying History 1 and 2 and maybe even teaching a bit of History 1. That gives you your brown belt. Next you start on History 4, still studying History 1, 2 and 3, plus teaching some or all of those. That takes you to black belt where you realise that History 1 to 4 has barely taken you past the Neanderthal period and learning the rest of the history of mankind lies before you.

 

[PhotonGuy]

More like you have a syllabus. History 1 takes you to yellow belt then you add History 2 but still studying History 1. That gives you your green belt. Then you start on History 3, still studying History 1 and 2 and maybe even teaching a bit of History 1. That gives you your brown belt. Next you start on History 4, still studying History 1, 2 and 3, plus teaching some or all of those. That takes you to black belt where you realise that History 1 to 4 has barely taken you past the Neanderthal period and learning the rest of the history of mankind lies before you.

I see, so its more like math than history in that math builds on itself. More advanced math uses stuff you learn in basic math. Even the most advanced math uses the very basics such as addition and subtraction.

 

[K-man]

I see, so its more like math than history in that math builds on itself. More advanced math uses stuff you learn in basic math. Even the most advanced math uses the very basics such as addition and subtraction.

I think you are on the right track. Good analogy.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I've seen black belts on pedestals after tournaments, but that's really it...

Just so you know Im not talking about a physical pedestal. When I talk about putting the black belt on a pedestal what I mean is making it proportionally much harder to go from brown to black than to go up any of the other, earlier belts.

 

[geezer]

Just so you know Im not talking about a physical pedestal. When I talk about putting the black belt on a pedestal what I mean is making it proportionally much harder to go from brown to black than to go up any of the other, earlier belts.

Yeah, it should be a challenge, but not outrageously hard. Otherwise forger the "pedestal" and put the black belt on top of this:

BTW that's K2, one mother of a mountain, eh?

...and please take everything I say with a grain or salt. They don't even have belts in the MA I practice.

 

[Hyoho]

The black belt has reached a somewhat mythical status in the west but in Japan first degree black belt is just seen as another rank, the rank after 1st Kyu (which is often a brown belt) and before 2nd Dan. Shodan, the Japanese word for first degree black belt is literally translated as "low man." So therefore I don't see why a sensei from Japan would view it as such a big deal, and would make the test for Shodan much harder than the test for 1st Kyu.

Just noticed this old thread. Actually there is very little difference between ikkyu and shodan in Japan. Ikkyu is an unqualified beginner. Some arts do pre grading test to make sure you are not wasting anybodies time. You enter a dojo, sit nearest the door. Highest dan grade foreman sits at the other end and the teacher is the other side well away from the door. Specific dojo are built this way. It means an attacker come to you first. The teacher is last but of course that doesn't happen any more. You spend many years fighting most fighting with your own problems. The eventually you end up on the the other side (sensei). It's then that you wish you were that guy next to the door! Personally I have low opinion of dan grades as they are awarded by the association. I gave up on them at 42 to concentrate on classical arts. but that's just my path. At one time I considered burning all my certification as it's just paper that hangs around. But I was persuaded to keep it for posterity. Regardless of grade Budo is a lifetimes work we should love or leave.

 

[donald1]

Just noticed this old thread. Actually there is very little difference between ikkyu and shodan in Japan. Ikkyu is an unqualified beginner. Some arts do pre grading test to make sure you are not wasting anybodies time. You enter a dojo, sit nearest the door. Highest dan grade foreman sits at the other end and the teacher is the other side well away from the door. Specific dojo are built this way. It means an attacker come to you first. The teacher is last but of course that doesn't happen any more. You spend many years fighting most fighting with your own problems. The eventually you end up on the the other side (sensei). It's then that you wish you were that guy next to the door! Personally I have low opinion of dan grades as they are awarded by the association. I gave up on them at 42 to concentrate on classical arts. but that's just my path. At one time I considered burning all my certification as it's just paper that hangs around. But I was persuaded to keep it for posterity. Regardless of grade Budo is a lifetimes work we should love or leave.

Umm.. im unfamiliar with the term ikkyu, is that the same as kyu or something different?

 

[kuniggety]

Umm.. im unfamiliar with the term ikkyu, is that the same as kyu or something different?

Ichi (one) + kyu conjugates into ikkyu

 

[Chris Parker]

Just so you know Im not talking about a physical pedestal. When I talk about putting the black belt on a pedestal what I mean is making it proportionally much harder to go from brown to black than to go up any of the other, earlier belts.

Uh… you do realise that you're replying to an answer from a year ago… on the first page of this 9 page thread… that was largely tongue-in-cheek in the first place? Yeah? And that, as per much of the rest of the thread, that's not what "to place on a pedestal" actually means?

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see why you felt the need to clarify your incorrect grasp of the idiom you're attempting to use some 11 months after the fact…

 

[PhotonGuy]

Uh… you do realise that you're replying to an answer from a year ago… on the first page of this 9 page thread… that was largely tongue-in-cheek in the first place? Yeah? And that, as per much of the rest of the thread, that's not what "to place on a pedestal" actually means?

So than what exactly does the expression "to place on a pedestal" mean? If I used the wrong expression than I stand corrected.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see why you felt the need to clarify your incorrect grasp of the idiom you're attempting to use some 11 months after the fact…

Because I sometimes bring stuff up from a long time ago. And actually 11 months isn't that long ago compared to how long ago some of the stuff I bring up is. Sometimes I bring stuff up from many years ago.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Ikkyu is the highest level brown belt. Kyu ranks count down, dan ranks count up.

Black belts are all yudansha, no matter what else they may be. They eat at the grownups table. More is expected from them and that they are expected to begin giving back, which increases overy time. A yudansha represents his or her dojo and sensei, and many will form their opinions of both based on what they see in the yudansha. Concepts like honor and duty become as important as technique and power, etc.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Place on a Pedestal

 

[Buka]

Ikkyu is the highest level brown belt. Kyu ranks count down, dan ranks count up.

Black belts are all yudansha, no matter what else they may be. They eat at the grownups table. More is expected from them and that they are expected to begin giving back, which increases overy time. A yudansha represents his or her dojo and sensei, and many will form their opinions of both based on what they see in the yudansha. Concepts like honor and duty become as important as technique and power, etc.

Great post. Honor and duty. Love it

"They eat at the grownups table". What a great and funny line.

 

[Chris Parker]

So than what exactly does the expression "to place on a pedestal" mean? If I used the wrong expression than I stand corrected.

Yes, you used the wrong expression. Again.

"To place on a pedestal" refers to holding something in high esteem, despite not having any reason to do so. Such as thinking that the pretty girl who doesn't even know your name, and who you know virtually nothing about, is the paragon of virtue and sweetness, even if she simply isn't.

Because I sometimes bring stuff up from a long time ago. And actually 11 months isn't that long ago compared to how long ago some of the stuff I bring up is. Sometimes I bring stuff up from many years ago.

Except that you'd been involved in the thread ever since that comment, which was on the first page… and you added absolutely nothing new to your argument at all. There was no reason for your added post.

Ikkyu is the highest level brown belt. Kyu ranks count down, dan ranks count up.

Yeah… I'm assuming you're meaning this as an indication of how things "change" at Dan grade, yeah? If so, cool way to think about it.

Black belts are all yudansha, no matter what else they may be.

Well, all Japanese art black belts potentially are… the term is pretty literally "Person who has a Dan grade" (有段者 - yu(u) - belonging to, dan - rank/level, sha - person). That said, in systems such as Robert Bussey's RBWI used different "ranking" for black belts… which didn't apply a "dan" term.

They eat at the grownups table. More is expected from them and that they are expected to begin giving back, which increases overy time.

Depending on the dojo, yeah… levels can change, of course.

A yudansha represents his or her dojo and sensei, and many will form their opinions of both based on what they see in the yudansha.

Again, yeah, there is that very real potential. Of course, as you said in your other thread, it's not only the yudansha, but also the mudansha who can be seen to represent the dojo…

Concepts like honor and duty become as important as technique and power, etc.

Again, depends… a nice ideal, but not definite or universal.