How the Japanese view of the black belt

[Gerry Seymour]

It’s unlikely that anyone believes it’s the belt that gives one the ability to be a competent practitioner. It’s merely an indicator to oneself and others that you are performing, against an objective set of measures, to the level of that rank. If you ‘can do‘ Karoddy you are likely to progress up the rungs of the ladder and your belt will darken in the fullness of training. If you ‘can’t do’ Karoddy you may, at best, get to and remain at pink belt with orange longitudinal stripes.

Indications of rank are important in most societies and for some reason, especially Japan. Even in the USA, one of the first questions your likely to be asked when in a social situation is “What job do you do?” This is not-so-subtle way of assessing your socio-economic ‘ranking’ in society and thus the questioner‘s relative position to you. In the U.K. this question is rarely asked, but the way one speaks (grammar, accent, vocabulary) and to an extent, dresses seem to ‘place you in the rankings’. Then it’s which school/University you attended. You can be as poor as a church mouse, but if you went to Charterhouse/Eton/Oxford/Cambridge then you are highly regarded (at least a 5th Dan blackbelt). This is why the British look down on all Americans (except scientists and Natalie Portman).

I see this today when I'm guiding a zipline tour. Folks will ask how long I've been doing this (assuming I've been an adventure guide for a long time, because of my age). When I tell them I zipped for the first time during my training 2 years ago, they ask "what did you do before this". When I tell them I spent 30 years in management consulting, it changes how they view me - and how they view my decision to do what I do now.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Have you been to the US? Normally, this question is used as an icebreaker or conversation starter. That, or we might actually be curious about what they do for a living, though the former is the mostly scenario in which we would ask this question.

Average salary in the US in 2022 was 77,463 USD or 61312 GBP.

Average Salary in the UK in 2022 53,985 USD or 42,729 GBP.

You're gonna need a much taller ladder before you can look down on us. That is, if you can afford it.

Do you realize you just did what he was talking about? You used average salary to say "we're better".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You're not exempt from the Americans he's claiming that Brits look down on (he used the word "all"), so I don't know why you're taking his side.

Regardless, if the average Brit and the average American show up to the same place, the American has more money to splurge. I suppose I'll keep that in mind on my next vacation and help a limey out when I'm at the bar. Because I'm compassionate.

You're assuming everyone has the same percentage of discretionary income. I don't know the numbers, but I'll bet that's not true.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And yet, if I recall correctly I believe it was you who said that you go to or have gone to a dojo where in some of the classes, people would swap belts.

I don't think that's counter to what he said. I like that idea - it allows folks to see that it's not the belt. If I go to an NGA dojo and put on a blue belt (2nd lowest, after white), they're going to see that the belt doesn't matter - it's what you do to get there.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Only once <shudders>

I suppose it’s better than “How much do you weigh?”

How about ‘Are you enjoying this little soirée’ or ‘Where do you live?’ ‘What do you think about that blonde PM you had and the ‘blonde’ one we had?’

You clearly didn’t understand my post nor it’s tone . Quod erat demonstrandum.

The US is very job-centric. We like to talk about each others' jobs. You're correct that we do - even those who don't intend to - evaluate people based on their job. But we also like to ask questions and find some jobs interesting to talk about, so it makes an easy ice breaker. I've worked with folks at a lot of different levels in literally hundreds of organizations, and learning about their jobs still intrigues me.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Do you realize you just did what he was talking about? You used average salary to say "we're better".

Yeah, I did. He used his measuring stick to say they're better, and I used mine.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My post was made with my tongue firmly in my cheek. Now stop before guns or drones are drawn!

My attack drone is very precise. I'll have it snipe that tongue right out of your cheek, sir!
/s

 

[Hot Lunch]

You're assuming everyone has the same percentage of discretionary income. I don't know the numbers, but I'll bet that's not true.

As a general rule, that's the case. We typically budget our housing and other expenses a percentage of our income.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

As I’ve mention before, if a student asked “when’s the next belt test?”they would then be automatically excluded from it. They ALL knew that going in, they learned that before signing up, there was a sign on the wall to remind them.

I'm curious why this was so stringent. I could see me asking that to make sure I don't schedule something that would keep me from attending. I could see other reasons folks might ask, that wouldn't be about the belt rank.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So much on the side of them that your first reaction is to argue with what I said.

Here's some more numbers that I dug up:

Average income tax in the US is 13.3%. In the UK, it's 23.6%

So the differences are even wider (in favor of Americans) when it comes to net income.

Then, we can look at the highest bill everyone pays...

Average rent in 2022 for a two bedroom flat in the US was 1,339 USD or 1,056 GPB

In the UK, it was 1,617 USD or 1,276 GPB.

Average monthly grocery bill in the US for a family of four in 2022 was 668 USD or 527 GBP. In the UK, it's 918 USD or 725 GBP.

I don't think much else matters after this.

You've left out big things like healthcare cost. That's a very large portion of post-tax income in the US. I suspect it's a lot smaller in the UK.

So are you still "on the side of facts," or do you keep arguing with me?

That arbitrary 2.5 number that you thought was a smoking gun.

That arbitrary number he used was just that - arbitrary. His point, I think, was that if you don't know what that number is, you're just guessing. He simply showed that there was a number that could reverse the situation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I absolutely do not doubt that. But it’s a little sad that you seem proud of that fact

It feels like you missed the relative locations of his tongue and cheek here.

 

[Hot Lunch]

You've left out big things like healthcare cost. That's a very large portion of post-tax income in the US. I suspect it's a lot smaller in the UK.

Except at this point, the gap is way to wide for the differences to make up. Even if healthcare was free in the UK, we're still ahead.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well that does somewhat contradict what you said in post #230 where you said you don't think anyone should make black belt just because they show up for a couple of years and go through the motions without any heart or grit involved. Based on what you described, anybody can be a black belt without even without being there a couple of years and having gone through the motions, and certainly without any heart or grit. They don't even have to be a regular student, they can just be a guest and be a black belt, at least for one class, if they happen to swap with a black belt for that class.

Um, no. Folks got to wear a different belt for a class. They didn't make BB for that class - they simply didn't have a visual cue of anyone's rank.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This part, except for the last sentence (mostly).

To me, the self-contradictory part is the "harsh" testing for belts that allegedly don't mean anything. The "harsh" part of it implies that the test isn't solely on what the students learn, but also (and maybe even mostly) on how bad the students want it.

I've described the harsh testing (and everyday training) at my last dojo that made me pack up and leave to find another one too many times and too recently to repeat it again here. But that being said, I'll give them credit for one thing: there was definitely no self-contradiction at that dojo. Belts meant something there, and they had absolutely zero problem saying it.

I read his post as meaning the belt, itself, doesn't matter. It's the work that matters - the achievement and development. So you have to work hard to get further, but the symbol is just a symbol.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

For that matter, I'm fond of dressing for the holidays. I often wear a red belt for Valentines, a green for St Patricks' Day, and I have a red dobak for Christmas.

And now I wish I still had classes to teach. I own belts of several colors, and never thought to use them this way.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I read his post as meaning the belt, itself, doesn't matter. It's the work that matters - the achievement and development. So you have to work hard to get further, but the symbol is just a symbol.

Translation: the belt means something. Ultimately, the belt is tied to the achievement.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Roman numerals sounds really cool. I like that idea, but I bet there are many people who can’t read them!

"Why are his thee lines not all lined up - two of them actually touch. like a V?"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have menkyo kaiden among other kodansha ranks and a licence in Kenjutsu. I don't need another rank and not bound by an association. I wear what the hell I like. It's a doubled over Japanese kaku obi.

I recognized it as that, but now I want to use one of my Christmas ties as a belt on my dogi.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

.

Well said.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Much of that depends on the school they go to. Some schools are harder than others, particularly private schools. A friend of mine who went to a really hard private school was doing what would be 6th and 7th grade work at a standard public school, when he was in the 5th grade.

That's much the same as two similar associations that have different grading criteria. It doesn't change the nature of the post you're quoting.