Testing for black belt

[Gerry Seymour]

The school I was at as a kid switched from tape stripes to stitched stripes when I was around purple belt.

I actually kind of like the tape stripe. It's like it adds character and helps make the belt "mine".

I thought the icky sweatiness was what made the belt "mine".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The school I was at as a kid switched from tape stripes to stitched stripes when I was around purple belt.

I actually kind of like the tape stripe. It's like it adds character and helps make the belt "mine".

In seriousness, I like the casualness and lack of durability of the tape stripe. It seems to imply you're not supposed to keep that belt forever.

 

[pdg]

I was thinking more just another belt color. I never did the stripe thing (either type), so I'm used to the getting a new belt. I've considered stripes, but I'm not sure what purpose they'd serve. I was more looking in the direction of a purple belt between red and blue (see what I did there?).

Another set of intermediate solid colours would serve the same purpose of rank identification, if you can find enough suitable colours.

But - in our itf tkd at least - the colours and order thereof have a progressive meaning attached to them, which would be disrupted by additional colours.

 

[mrt2]

I am agnostic on the tape stripes vs. new belt for each promotion thing. My former style of Tang Soo Do only had White, Orange, Green, and Red belts for Gup levels. So they used tape stripes on both Green and Red Belts. It was fine. To complicate matters, my former dojang required students to add colored fabric to the collars of their uniforms to match the colored belt once they made green belt. This worked fine but practically speaking, it meant replacing your uniform when you got promoted from green to red belt. But as for the belt at least, you basically got to wear both the green and the red belts for 9 months to a year each, so it really became yours.

But I just looked up my former school and apparently, Tang Soo Do has changed a bit since I have been gone, as they have now added yellow, blue, brown and purple colored belts. Way too confusing, IMO. I am sure the students adjust quickly, but what a cacaphony of colors.

My current TKD school has only white, yellow, green, purple and brown belts, but has one rank in between each colored belt promotion, represented by a colored belt with a black stripe through the middle of the length of the belt. So a new belt for each promotion, but only only 5 colored belt colors rather than the TSD uses.

 

[JR 137]

@skribs @pdg
I just realized something... I thought we were in the cost of black belt test thread where the OP was talking about paying for tests between dan ranks. It was something like he needed 3-4 stripe tests (like electrical tape stripes) at about $100 each before he could test for the next dan rank, which was $600.

Somehow I’m merging threads here. Sorry for the confusion

Now disregarding my posts in this thread...

My previous school used the same belt system in kyu ranks. For the sake of consistency, I’ll refer to the belt style pictured as a “stripe”...

10th kyu - solid white
9th - white with blue stripe
8th - solid blue
7th - blue with yellow stripe
6th - solid yellow
5th - yellow with green stripe
4th - solid green
3rd - green with brown stripe
2nd - solid brown
1st - brown with black stripe

Each kyu was a full rank with its own syllabus and test. Each test costed around $50 (I trained there a long time ago, so cost could be off). During all of those ranks, we had 2 “stripe tests” where we did what I described previously and got a strip of electrical tape on our belt each time.

My current organization uses the same solid color order, but instead of getting a new belt with a “stripe,” we get a patch we sew on our belt. Here’s my 3rd kyu belt...

I was just promoted to 2nd kyu, which is a solid brown belt. When I’m promoted to 1st kyu, I’ll sew a patch like the one above on the brown belt I’m currently wearing.

I like the patch system better. I get to keep the same belt for longer and I think it looks cooler somehow.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

@skribs @pdg
I just realized something... I thought we were in the cost of black belt test thread where the OP was talking about paying for tests between dan ranks. It was something like he needed 3-4 stripe tests (like electrical tape stripes) at about $100 each before he could test for the next dan rank, which was $600.

Somehow I’m merging threads here. Sorry for the confusion

Now disregarding my posts in this thread...

My previous school used the same belt system in kyu ranks. For the sake of consistency, I’ll refer to the belt style pictured as a “stripe”...

10th kyu - solid white
9th - white with blue stripe
8th - solid blue
7th - blue with yellow stripe
6th - solid yellow
5th - yellow with green stripe
4th - solid green
3rd - green with brown stripe
2nd - solid brown
1st - brown with black stripe

Each kyu was a full rank with its own syllabus and test. Each test costed around $50 (I trained there a long time ago, so cost could be off). During all of those ranks, we had 2 “stripe tests” where we did what I described previously and got a strip of electrical tape on our belt each time.

My current organization uses the same solid color order, but instead of getting a new belt with a “stripe,” we get a patch we sew on our belt. Here’s my 3rd kyu belt...
View attachment 21402
I was just promoted to 2nd kyu, which is a solid brown belt. When I’m promoted to 1st kyu, I’ll sew a patch like the one above on the brown belt I’m currently wearing.

I like the patch system better. I get to keep the same belt for longer and I think it looks cooler somehow.

Worn out belts always look cooler. There's nothing dorkier than a brand new belt that's pointed out to the sides like so much pig iron. I think that's on purpose, to keep us from being too proud of our new belt.

 

[pdg]

Somehow I’m merging threads here. Sorry for the confusion

Yeah, you're not alone

 

[mrt2]

I appreciate the clarification.

It may be that your school is perfectly fine. Obviously I am not there to see what is going on and make some kind of judgement on it.

I think sometimes people who may have experience with only one school may have landed in a bad school and don’t realize it because they have no other experience to compare it to. I don’t know if that describes you or not.

Of course there are always those students who don’t train with committment and struggle to remember their material. To them, it may seem like a memorization task.

But the way you had described it just raised some red flags in my mind.

If those issues are regular and prevalent, then I see that as a serious problem with the quality of the instruction. If those issues are limited to a few individuals who don’t or can’t give some real committment to their training, then it’s not an issue.

But the things that cause the alarm bells to go off in my head are if material is being taught just before a test, without time for the student to train with that material and get to really understand it first. If the material is being taught simply to have something to test you on, that is a problem.

If things like forms are taught and then never get revisited except for test day, that is a problem. Not every system uses forms/kata/poomsae, and that is fine. They are not necessary in order to train a martial system. But if they are used, then they need to be trained diligently and they need to be explored to understand the lessons that they hold, and to drill that material. Otherwise the forms practice is useless. I get the feeling that in a lot of schools, forms are just filler material. They exist in the curriculum as a nod to “tradition”, but nobody understands them as a genuine training tool, and nobody is doing them well, and nobody can seem to remember them because they are rarely trained or are treated as a simple warmup exercise, done quickly and without thought, and rushed through to get to the “real” stuff.

If students are generally scrambling around to remember their material for test day, that is a problem. They ought to be training this material on a regular basis, and it should no longer be a memorization exercise. They ought to be LEARNING the material, not just serially memorizing it and forgetting it.

So if these issues are uncommon, then the school may be just fine. But if these issues are typical and common and prevalent, most of the students fit this description, then the school is giving poor instruction, in my opinion.

Students need to be responsible for the ongoing practice of what they have learned. They need to practice outside of class as well. If they are not doing that, then they will run into some of these problems. So the students have some responsibility for their own failings as well. But the practices of the instructor in how he is teaching and running the school, can definitely set up the student for failure. But the failure is masked as a success and a new rank is awarded and another fee is collected.

1. I trained as a teenager for 3 years in a similar, Korean martial art. A lot of my perspective is informed by those 3 years of training 3 decades ago.

2. I think some of the issue might be with how my current school breaks up the various parts of TKD, and perhaps, students not putting in enough time to really master everything. In the old days, the classes were 2 hours, and each class pretty much covered everything from conditioning drills, to punches, blocks, kicks, forms and sparring. My current school's classes are only 1 hour, and beginner classes are only 45 minutes. When you have a full 2 hours for class, you have a lot more time to cover the basics than you do when you only have 45 minutes to an hour. Multiply that out and the 3 times a week student who used to put 6 hours a week, is maybe now only putting in 3 hours a week, plus, maybe a half hour or an hour at home on off days. The situation is worse for the twice a week student, who maybe even falls off to less than twice a week for whatever reason. And maybe, it only gets worse the further such a student progresses. At that point, unless the student puts in a lot of time on his own, he is only getting a few minutes of basic punches, kicks, and beginner forms per week, whereas to maintain proficiency, I suspect much more time is needed.

And, sparring is its own class. Which, in some ways is better than how we did things back in the day because instead of doing 5 or 10 minutes of sparring, the master devotes an entire class to sparring, and sparring related drills. If you attend sparring classes, I can see where you can actually get more proficient doing it this way. Great if you do them, but if you don't attend those classes regularly, you might never get proficient at sparring.

Additionally, my current school breaks down classes into general classes, and advanced classes. Presumably, the advanced classes offer more opportunity to work on more advanced techniques, which remedies a problem I had back in my old TSD days, which was, as my time to train got more limited, I struggled to find time to train in more advanced techniques, though my beginner and intermediate stuff was rock solid due to the shear repetition. On the other hand, the advanced training isn't any good if you allow your basic techniques to decay.

So there are several problems I see, not with everyone, but with some people. One is children, but I take that with a grain of salt since I view children's martial arts as a kind of necessary evil to finance a facility for a relatively small number of adults. I have seen the master work with children and I think he gets what he can from them. But even with adults, there are folks who don't seem to have mastered the basics, and that is a problem in my book.

This is kind of a long winded way of saying I think some folks don't put enough time in training. Shame on my school if they promote people who are barely proficient with basic stuff to higher belts because they didn't put enough time training. It might have been possible to improve on 2 to 3 classes a day when the classes covered everything, but maybe as an advanced belt, who only practices twice a week, or even less for an hour or less a class, not enough time to cover everything in the curriculum every class..

 

[pdg]

maybe a half hour or an hour at home on off days

I'd be surprised if the majority manage to do as much as half an hour of "homework" per week tbh.

I think it's a difficult situation, you can't force people to practice or study because most would leave.

Then, you also can't fail (or refuse to test) mediocre people, because they'd leave.

If you set your standards very high chances are you wouldn't cover costs in most instances (as the undermotivated and underachievers leave), then you'd lose everyone - good and bad - because you'd have to close.

So yes, schools might be to blame for promoting people who don't really fully deserve it, but I'd rather have that and still have a school to attend than the alternative of standards so high that there's nowhere to train.


Another way to look at it is that it's a personal journey, if you're better than you were then why not advance?


Case study: a woman I know...

During chatting while our respective kids were doing their junior session I had suggested she give kickboxing a try - she never wanted to because she didn't think she'd meet the standard.

She watched a session in the end, and while there were better practitioners there were the not so good ones - after seeing that her opinion changed...

Now, she's getting a lot out of it personally - she's the first to admit she's not exactly a model of perfection, but is that always really the point?

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'm on a different page

This is what I consider a stripe:

View attachment 21400

3rd kup belt - 4th kup is solid blue, 2nd is solid red.

In this instance a "stripe test" is indistinguishable from a "solid colour test" because it's a whole grade.

This and the tape stripe are both stripes.
The advantage of the tape stripe is that it's cheaper. Given the huge amount of money our program makes that's a factor. And, too, the tape stripe is in keeping with the way stripes are added to black belts.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'd be surprised if the majority manage to do as much as half an hour of "homework" per week tbh.

Depends on how interested they are in learning. Those who want to learn will find the time. Those who don't are practicing what I call "WallMart TKD" and I encourage them to keep their receipts in case they need to return it.

I think it's a difficult situation, you can't force people to practice or study because most would leave.

Why is that a problem? If they don't want to learn, do you really want them in your program?

Then, you also can't fail (or refuse to test) mediocre people, because they'd leave.

Sure you can. We do it all the time. If they don't meet the standard, they wait until they do. Or till they quit. If all they want is a belt, I'll refer them to google, where they can easily find a place to purchase both a belt and a Really Awesome Certificate.

If you set your standards very high chances are you wouldn't cover costs in most instances (as the undermotivated and underachievers leave), then you'd lose everyone - good and bad - because you'd have to close.

And this is one reason why I really prefer our non-commercial program.

 

[Dirty Dog]

In seriousness, I like the casualness and lack of durability of the tape stripe. It seems to imply you're not supposed to keep that belt forever.

They're actually pretty durable. At the higher geup ranks, our students will commonly wear their belts for a year or more. And the tape holds up fine.

 

[skribs]

Why is that a problem? If they don't want to learn, do you really want them in your program?

A lot of our students are there because there parents want them to learn discipline and respect. They're not there because they want to learn.

 

[Dirty Dog]

A lot of our students are there because there parents want them to learn discipline and respect. They're not there because they want to learn.

If the parents can't teach them that at home, you're not going to manage it either.

 

[skribs]

If the parents can't teach them that at home, you're not going to manage it either.

That flies in the face of plenty of what I've seen.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A lot of our students are there because there parents want them to learn discipline and respect. They're not there because they want to learn.

They won’t learn as much discipline from getting a rank as from having to work to earn one.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If the parents can't teach them that at home, you're not going to manage it either.

Some parents don’t know how to require patient practice at something they (the kids) don’t want to do right that moment. Many MA instructors (and sport coaches) are adept at that.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Some parents don’t know how to require patient practice at something they (the kids) don’t want to do right that moment. Many MA instructors (and sport coaches) are adept at that.

I think you can build on the basics they've learned at home. But you can't possibly teach them respect and discipline if they haven't already learned it at home. You don't have the time with them, for one thing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think you can build on the basics they've learned at home. But you can't possibly teach them respect and discipline if they haven't already learned it at home. You don't have the time with them, for one thing.

I can see your point. I think most (after age 8 - the youngest I taught) have been introduced to the concepts at school, of not at home. But many haven’t had it reinforced well beyond that.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I think you can build on the basics they've learned at home. But you can't possibly teach them respect and discipline if they haven't already learned it at home. You don't have the time with them, for one thing.

We’ll, you certainly won’t have the time with them if you cause them to quit. The longer I can keep a student, the more opportunity I have to have a positive impact on the student.

Since I own a commercial school, I obviously benefit financially from keeping the student. However, I can honestly say that that is secondary. The instructors that I choose to associate with are sincere in that regard, too. As a school teacher, as well that holds true. I didn’t become a teacher or MA instructor to get rich, but I do earn a living from teaching.


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