How the Japanese view of the black belt

[PhotonGuy]

GJJ uses stripes, where other styles use colors. If they use 2 stripes per belt (not sure if that's accurate) and 3 colors (off the top of my head, I think that's right?), then they have 8 steps between plain white and plain black. I don't see a significant functional difference - most styles use stripes beyond shodan. Both are visible indicators of some sort of progress. Stripes are just easier than changing the belt as often.

I personally like fewer steps in visual indicators, but that's likely just because that's what I'm used to - the NGAA uses 4 colored belts between white and black, and I used the same in my curriculum (though I briefly reduced that to 3).

At the Gracie Jiu Jitsu academy where I do it, it's four stripes per belt with the exception of the brown belt which doesn't get stripes. There's five colors from white to black if you're talking about adult belts. The belts in the adult system go white, blue, purple, brown, black. If you make it to black belt you can get stripes as well although Im not quite sure how the stripe system works at that level. To wear the blue belt you have to be at least sixteen as when you turn sixteen you're in the adult belt system. If you're under the age of sixteen you can get a yellow belt and an orange belt and a green belt. Once you turn sixteen your next belt is the blue belt regardless of what belt you're currently wearing.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Not necessarily. I briefly used only 3 colors, but it was a change I created in the early 2000's, so not really an old-school thing.

Well it's just from my own experience and observations, that dojos have been adding more colors to their ranking systems in modern times. There are even cases of styles that didn't have ranking systems back in the old days but some of the schools that teach such styles have come up with ranking systems in modern times. One such school that I visited in NYC which taught the Chinese Eagle Claw style had a belt system where black was the lowest color and white was the highest color.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Well the point is that making the rank of Shodan that dividing line (making it so that only the most serious students can get to the rank of Shodan) is very much an American thing and not something you see in Japan. If such a dividing line exists in dojos in Japan it would be at higher Dan ranks. In Japan the rank of Shodan is just seen as that of a serious beginner, not until you get higher in the Dan ranks does it get significantly harder. Not at dojos in Japan.

I don't know why I or anyone else hasn't already, but with all these claims that "that's not how they do it Japan," I'm gonna have to ask... how do you know?

 

[PhotonGuy]

Except at this point, the gap is way to wide for the differences to make up. Even if healthcare was free in the UK, we're still ahead.

Also, we don't have royalty in the USA so we don't pay taxes on that. A good portion of the tax money you pay if you live in the UK goes to support the royal family, not the least being King Charles III.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Um, no. Folks got to wear a different belt for a class. They didn't make BB for that class - they simply didn't have a visual cue of anyone's rank.

Well that's what I've been trying to say for a long time, wearing a belt is one thing, earning the rank that the belt represents is something else. Apparently some people don't understand the difference.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Translation: the belt means something. Ultimately, the belt is tied to the achievement.

BINGO!!!

 

[PhotonGuy]

I don't know why I or anyone else hasn't already, but with all these claims that "that's not how they do it Japan," I'm gonna have to ask... how do you know?

Mostly from magazine articles and from speaking to friends who are from Japan. I used to be a regular subscriber to Inside Karate magazine when it was being published (they stopped publishing Inside Karate in 1999). I also read Blackbelt magazine, perhaps the most famous of all martial arts magazines.

 

[PhotonGuy]

The belt structure was explained to you, the key points being you are guaranteed nothing as far as rank is concerned.

You were informed of the testing procedure and a certain point was emphasized repeatedly “If you ask when the next belt test is, you’re automatically excluded from that test. Because if you’re more interested in what color belt you wear than you are in training this IS NOT the school for you.”

So I will ask you again, exactly how did rank promotion work? You've made it clear that you would be suspended from testing if you asked when the test was but aside from that you haven't described much about how testing was done in the first place. Were tests scheduled at regular intervals? (Were they scheduled every few months or so?) Or were students just tested whenever? Exactly how did testing work?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well the point is that making the rank of Shodan that dividing line (making it so that only the most serious students can get to the rank of Shodan) is very much an American thing and not something you see in Japan. If such a dividing line exists in dojos in Japan it would be at higher Dan ranks. In Japan the rank of Shodan is just seen as that of a serious beginner, not until you get higher in the Dan ranks does it get significantly harder. Not at dojos in Japan.

The point of doing it at any rank would depends what you're trying to accomplish with it. It would seem odd to do it at shodan if that puts a gateway very early (first 2 years, for instance) unless you really want the "advanced" classes to be held for folks who are really dedicated, and shodan is sufficient experience for the material.

In my primary instructor's dojo, we considered purple belt (2 before black, 3 above white) to be where students began to become serious (most others wouldn't last that long). So I could have seen an argument for doing it even going into that rank.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My dojo, my rules.

Martial Arts school are different, as they should be in my opinion.

If you were interested in becoming a student in my school you were required to watch at least one class, and we would recommend what class you watched. It would be one in which the training was physically challenging - as opposed to say, a stretch class.

Then, if you were still interested, you would go into the office and go over the procedures and cost of joining the school.

The belt structure was explained to you, the key points being you are guaranteed nothing as far as rank is concerned.

You were informed of the testing procedure and a certain point was emphasized repeatedly “If you ask when the next belt test is, you’re automatically excluded from that test. Because if you’re more interested in what color belt you wear than you are in training this IS NOT the school for you.”

Our costs were lower than any other school I knew of.
Classes were Mon, Tues, Wed and Thursday nights. Mon, Wed, Fri and Saturday mornings, with an open training day on Friday. You were encouraged to take as many of them as you possibly could.

And if you were actually interested in joining at that point, your first month was completely free so you could experience what you thought you were interested in. Go ahead, find a better deal than that, I dare you.
We wouldn’t allow anyone to join without taking that first month for free. No exceptions.

Granted, not a wise business plan, but we didn’t open a dojo for business reasons.

First Responders trained free of charge. All Police, Firefighters and EMTs only had to eventually buy a gi, at our cost. For everyone else we made ten bucks on a gi price.

Everyone was told of the rules, repeatedly. It kind of amazes me that some online have a problem with this. If you were someone who walked in as a prospective student with that opinion, we’d even help you, too.

We had the name addresses and phone numbers of every dojo within reasonable driving distance that we’d give you on a printed sheet.

And, yes, I’m almost embarrassed to admit, even Fred Villari’s school was on there.

All students of other schools were allowed, and encouraged, to come down and take as many classes as they wanted. All free, no strings attached.

Thursday night was sparring night. Open door policy, everyone welcome, no charge whatsoever. Come on down and spar. Even if you weren’t a Martial Artist, just someone who thought they wanted to fight some guys who were. They were welcome, too.

Single moms working two jobs, you and your kid can join up. Can’t afford it? No problem, we’ll make you a deal, help clean the dojo once a month, get a gi at our cost and have a ball. Can’t afford a gi? We’ll give you a clean, used one in good shape, no problem.

The only catch to any of this is you have to follow Dojo protocol. Follow it to a T. You have to follow the rules. One of the BIG ones was do not ask when a test was coming. Just read the bulletin board. All testing dates were posted two weeks before any test.

And even if you were NOT qualified to take that test (like if you just got promoted three months before) come down and take it anyway for practice. And also because it was the most grueling of training nights. Tests were physically demanding, which was why they were always crowded.

I remember one test where there were fifteen people who were actually up for promotion IF they passed, but there was over forty people who were taking the test for practice.

No charge for testing, unless you passed and got promoted, then it was four bucks for your new belt.

If you opened a dojo near us, say within ten miles, four or five of us would show up to your open house or to the first day of you classes. To welcome you to the area and give you a heavy bag from Tufwear, four kicking shields and some focus mitts. As well as the wholesale price list from Tufwear. We’d tell you, “Feel free to get any of this from us at our cost and charge your students, or the general public what ever you want.”

We did that to help their school, foster good will and because we had to buy so much every year to remain as distributers.
Might as well pass it on.

Like I said, my dojo, my rules. And DON’T ask about tests.

It seems arbitrary, but also like something I'd have shrugged off as no big deal. I'd have thought, "Odd. But whatever. His dojo, his rules." I think I've heard something like that somewhere....

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well it's just from my own experience and observations, that dojos have been adding more colors to their ranking systems in modern times. There are even cases of styles that didn't have ranking systems back in the old days but some of the schools that teach such styles have come up with ranking systems in modern times. One such school that I visited in NYC which taught the Chinese Eagle Claw style had a belt system where black was the lowest color and white was the highest color.

My point was just that there are some going in the other direction, too. I can think of at least two folks who split off from the NGAA and stopped using colored belts. One went to white/black, and the other just has everyone (themselves included) wearing white.

I haven't seen enough to be sure, but I'll bet there are more adding ranks than removing them, so your point is valid.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Also, we don't have royalty in the USA so we don't pay taxes on that. A good portion of the tax money you pay if you live in the UK goes to support the royal family, not the least being King Charles III.

The royal family gets a lot of money, but it's a tiny percentage of what people pay in taxes. A quick search said it was less than $2 per citizen in 2022.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Also, we don't have royalty in the USA so we don't pay taxes on that. A good portion of the tax money you pay if you live in the UK goes to support the royal family, not the least being King Charles III.

Untrue. The Crown Estates donate 100% of their profit to the government, which then returns about 20% as a grant to support the royals.

 

[Hyoho]

I don't know why I or anyone else hasn't already, but with all these claims that "that's not how they do it Japan," I'm gonna have to ask... how do you know?

Well as my full time employment was teaching professionally in Japan I can verify that. I already posted many things about rank in Japan. It's mostly kids that have colored obi. A belt (ベルト) is for holding you pants up. Kids have already reached shodan (qualifieds beginner) before they even leave school. Sandan is a minimum requirement for related employment.

 

[PhotonGuy]

My point was just that there are some going in the other direction, too. I can think of at least two folks who split off from the NGAA and stopped using colored belts. One went to white/black, and the other just has everyone (themselves included) wearing white.

I haven't seen enough to be sure, but I'll bet there are more adding ranks than removing them, so your point is valid.

Interesting, I've never heard of a dojo getting rid of colors.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I think you’re right.

Then it makes sense that a Japanese sensei whose teaching in the USA, a Japanese sensei who was born in Japan and grew up in Japan and now runs a dojo in the USA, would do it that way too.

 

[Gyakuto]

Then it makes sense that a Japanese sensei whose teaching in the USA, a Japanese sensei who was born in Japan and grew up in Japan and now runs a dojo in the USA, would do it that way too.

<sigh> OK then.

 

[PhotonGuy]

The point of doing it at any rank would depends what you're trying to accomplish with it. It would seem odd to do it at shodan if that puts a gateway very early (first 2 years, for instance) unless you really want the "advanced" classes to be held for folks who are really dedicated, and shodan is sufficient experience for the material.

In my primary instructor's dojo, we considered purple belt (2 before black, 3 above white) to be where students began to become serious (most others wouldn't last that long). So I could have seen an argument for doing it even going into that rank.

Well from my own observations I would say that orange belt (the third belt) is often the dividing line where students become serious. Belt systems of course vary from dojo to dojo in terms of colors and the order that they go in but its common, at least from what I've seen, for orange to be the third belt where the order goes white, yellow, orange. I would say many, if not most students, don't make it to orange.

The martial arts has a very high turnover rate. Lots of people try it out for a little while, just to see what it's like, and then once their curiosity is satisfied they'll move on. As such many students will drop out at white belt, or they might decide to get their first belt after white belt which is often a yellow belt and then drop out after that. This is just what I've seen that many students will just try it out for a little while and maybe go up one belt and then decide it's not for them. As such, you could say that orange belt (or whatever the third belt in your system is) is the dividing line.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Well from my own observations I would say that orange belt (the third belt) is often the dividing line where students become serious. Belt systems of course vary from dojo to dojo in terms of colors and the order that they go in but its common, at least from what I've seen, for orange to be the third belt where the order goes white, yellow, orange. I would say many, if not most students, don't make it to orange.

The martial arts has a very high turnover rate. Lots of people try it out for a little while, just to see what it's like, and then once their curiosity is satisfied they'll move on. As such many students will drop out at white belt, or they might decide to get their first belt after white belt which is often a yellow belt and then drop out after that. This is just what I've seen that many students will just try it out for a little while and maybe go up one belt and then decide it's not for them. As such, you could say that orange belt (or whatever the third belt in your system is) is the dividing line.

That depends.

I wouldn't say that that's the case at my last dojo (Shorin-ryu). At the beginning, every test - and later, every other test - adds on new challenges. Largely, the point at which they quit depended on the level of challenge they were willing to tolerate.

At the Shotokan dojo where I train now, we don't get much adult "fresh meat" coming in. In the ten months I've been training there, we've only had three come in after me. And they're all still there.

 

[PhotonGuy]

That depends.

I wouldn't say that that's the case at my last dojo (Shorin-ryu). At the beginning, every test - and later, every other test - adds on new challenges. Largely, the point at which they quit depended on the level of challenge they were willing to tolerate.

At the Shotokan dojo where I train now, we don't get much adult "fresh meat" coming in. In the ten months I've been training there, we've only had three come in after me. And they're all still there.

Well it's common for people in general, particularly children, to try a wide variety of stuff out. I tried tennis out for a while and took some lessons. I also tried out golf. I did a few years of equestrian. I used to build models where you would put together cars, trains, airplanes, etc. out of plastic parts. So lots of people will try stuff out for a while to see what it's like and martial arts is no exception.