How the Japanese view of the black belt

[isshinryuronin]

it's not uncommon to have six or seven belt colors before black belt although I believe that is a relatively modern thing, by modern I mean within the last forty years or so.

Multi-colored belts between white and green go back at least 60+ years in the US.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Hwang Kee and Lee Won-kuk beg to differ.

Maybe. As I said before, I don't know much about how karate was taught in Japan before WWII.

There are still Japanese karate organizations that won't promote non-Japanese higher than Godan. So while it may not be at the shodan level, rank is still being gatekept.

Well apparently in some if not many styles Godan is the highest rank you attain by skill. Ranks beyond Godan are honorary ranks which are awarded not by an instructor but by your peers and you obtain them not by skill but by factors such as teaching ability, devotion to the art, ec. If you say that some Japanese organizations will not promote outsiders to such ranks then I will take your word for it although Im not aware of any such organizations.

The Berlin Wall fell over 30 years ago, and Germany has been reunited ever since. However, many Germans will claim that the divide between former East and West Germany is just as real today as it was back then. That said, even if black belt being denied to non-Japanese is a thing of the past, you don't get to dismiss that as a supporting argument for it being a big deal in Japan.

The point is, if the rank of Shodan, the first rank in which you wear a black belt, is a big deal in Japan, than the rank of Ikkyu, (1st Kyu) would be almost as big of a deal.

And I would also like to point out that when you do first start wearing a black belt you are still at quite a relatively low rank, considering how many ranks there are above First Degree Black Belt.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Multi-colored belts between white and green go back at least 60+ years in the US.

Perhaps. The point is, having only a few colors before black belt is very old school. I don't know exactly how far back it was when they started adding in many more colors but it's very common today. There aren't that many styles that have just a few colors between white and black although there are a few such as Gracie Jiu Jitsu when you're talking about adult belts.

 

[Fungus]

Well in my opinion if you're going to have those kinds of requirements for Shodan it would make sense to have requirements that are almost as hard for 1st Kyu. For instance, if you have to pass a 30 man kumite to make it to Shodan you should have to pass a 20 man kumite to make it to 1st Kyu. You should also have to do almost as much kihon and kata for 1st Kyu as you have to do for Shodan.

There is! in Kyokushin at least
1 kyu 20 man kumite
2 kyu 15 man kumite
...
4 kyu 7 man kumite

 

[Fungus]

Well apparently in some if not many styles Godan is the highest rank you attain by skill. Ranks beyond Godan are honorary ranks which are awarded not by an instructor but by your peers and you obtain them not by skill but by factors such as teaching ability, devotion to the art, ec.

This is correct for kyokushin at least. You can only train up to Godan.

The rest you need dedication and contribution to the art just as you say. But we have several higher honorary DAN ranks where I am (Europe - outside Japan), so it's not just for Japanese karatekas.

 

[Gyakuto]

Well what it means is beginning degree as it is the beginning degree in the dan ranks. Considering the fact that in many styles they have ranks that go up to 10th Dan, it's safe to say that Shodan, the rank of 1st Dan, is a rather low rank.

Do you have any original thoughts?

 

[Gyakuto]

My evidence would be my own research as well as, to a certain extent, my own experience. My own research would be magazine articles I would read. I used to read the magazine "Inside Karate" back when it was around as the magazine was discontinued in 1999. Another magazine I would read and sometimes still do would be Blackbelt.

Oh dear, oh dear. At best this is dodgy secondary citation (where you rely on a source interpreting another source which you haven’t checked) and worst it’s potentially perpetuating myths.

As for my own experience I've trained under both Japanese and American instructors. I've also known lots of people who've trained in all different sorts of arts under instructors from all around the world.

Subjective evidence….hmmmm dodgy.

Your dojo must've been really old school to have only three belt colors before black belt.

It’s still going strong and was an international organisation of Wado Ryu and, at least in the 80s and 90s, there were three colours of belts at kyu level. The point was probably to de-emphasis the rabid need to collect belts as one ascended the kyu levels.

I believe at first the only belt colors were white and black and then they gradually added in brown and then gradually added in more colors. Today it's not uncommon to have six or seven belt colors before black belt although I believe that is a relatively modern thing, by modern I mean within the last forty years or so.

People proudly tell me, “Yeah I’m an blue belt with two bands, one black, one intermittent yellow.” It means nothing to me so I ask what kyu grade that is and they usually reply “What’s that?”

 

[Cri70]

The only belt worth having is the the one that keeps up your pants at this moment. As of karate and really anything, either you can or you can't do it, and a belt doesn't make a iota of difference. Dont know how they think of it in Japan, but it seems to me the only reasonable way of thinking.

 

[Gyakuto]

The only belt worth having is the the one that keeps up your pants at this moment. As of karate and really anything, either you can or you can't do it, and a belt doesn't make a iota of difference. Dont know how they think of it in Japan, but it seems to me the only reasonable way of thinking.

It’s unlikely that anyone believes it’s the belt that gives one the ability to be a competent practitioner. It’s merely an indicator to oneself and others that you are performing, against an objective set of measures, to the level of that rank. If you ‘can do‘ Karoddy you are likely to progress up the rungs of the ladder and your belt will darken in the fullness of training. If you ‘can’t do’ Karoddy you may, at best, get to and remain at pink belt with orange longitudinal stripes.

Indications of rank are important in most societies and for some reason, especially Japan. Even in the USA, one of the first questions your likely to be asked when in a social situation is “What job do you do?” This is not-so-subtle way of assessing your socio-economic ‘ranking’ in society and thus the questioner‘s relative position to you. In the U.K. this question is rarely asked, but the way one speaks (grammar, accent, vocabulary) and to an extent, dresses seem to ‘place you in the rankings’. Then it’s which school/University you attended. You can be as poor as a church mouse, but if you went to Charterhouse/Eton/Oxford/Cambridge then you are highly regarded (at least a 5th Dan blackbelt). This is why the British look down on all Americans (except scientists and Natalie Portman).

 

[Hot Lunch]

Even in the USA, one of the first questions your likely to be asked when in a social situation is “What job do you do?” This is not-so-subtle way of assessing your socio-economic ‘ranking’ in society and thus the questioner‘s relative position to you.

Have you been to the US? Normally, this question is used as an icebreaker or conversation starter. That, or we might actually be curious about what they do for a living, though the former is the mostly scenario in which we would ask this question.

In the U.K. this question is rarely asked, but the way one speaks (grammar, accent, vocabulary) and to an extent, dresses seem to ‘place you in the rankings’. Then it’s which school/University you attended. You can be as poor as a church mouse, but if you went to Charterhouse/Eton/Oxford/Cambridge then you are highly regarded (at least a 5th Dan blackbelt). This is why the British look down on all Americans (except scientists and Natalie Portman).

Average salary in the US in 2022 was 77,463 USD or 61312 GBP.

Average Salary in the UK in 2022 53,985 USD or 42,729 GBP.

You're gonna need a much taller ladder before you can look down on us. That is, if you can afford it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Have you been to the US? Normally, this question is used as an icebreaker or conversation starter. That, or we might actually be curious about what they do for a living, though the former is the mostly scenario in which we would ask this question.

Average salary in the US in 2022 was 77,463 USD or 61312 GBP.

Average Salary in the UK in 2022 53,985 USD or 42,729 GBP.

You're gonna need a much taller ladder before you can look down on us. That is, if you can afford it.

Salary comparisons are completely meaningless without an identical comparison of the cost of living in those locations.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Salary comparisons are completely meaningless without an identical comparison of the cost of living in those locations.

You're not exempt from the Americans he's claiming that Brits look down on (he used the word "all"), so I don't know why you're taking his side.

Regardless, if the average Brit and the average American show up to the same place, the American has more money to splurge. I suppose I'll keep that in mind on my next vacation and help a limey out when I'm at the bar. Because I'm compassionate.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You're not exempt from the Americans he's claiming that Brits look down on (he used the word "all"), so I don't know why you're taking his side.

Facts don't have a side.

Regardless, if the average Brit and the average American show up to the same place, the American has more money to splurge.

Based on false assumptions. If the American earns twice as much, but the cost of living is 2.5 times as much, the American has less money.

 

[PhotonGuy]

This BJJ model is just one of the reasons I admire that Art so much.
I don’t think just anyone should make black belt just because they show up for a couple of years and go through the motions without any heart or grit involved.

Martial Arts ain’t an easy path.

And yet, if I recall correctly I believe it was you who said that you go to or have gone to a dojo where in some of the classes, people would swap belts.

 

[Gyakuto]

Have you been to the US?

Only once <shudders>

Normally, this question is used as an icebreaker or conversation starter.

I suppose it’s better than “How much do you weigh?”

That, or we might actually be curious about what they do for a living, though the former is the mostly scenario in which we would ask this question.

How about ‘Are you enjoying this little soirée’ or ‘Where do you live?’ ‘What do you think about that blonde PM you had and the ‘blonde’ one we had?’

Average salary in the US in 2022 was 77,463 USD or 61312 GBP.

Average Salary in the UK in 2022 53,985 USD or 42,729 GBP.

You're gonna need a much taller ladder before you can look down on us. That is, if you can afford it.

You clearly didn’t understand my post nor it’s tone . Quod erat demonstrandum.

 

[Gyakuto]

Facts don't have a side.

Based on false assumptions. If the American earns twice as much, but the cost of living is 2.5 times as much, the American has less money.

My post was made with my tongue firmly in my cheek. Now stop before guns or drones are drawn!

 

[Dirty Dog]

My post was made with my tongue firmly in my cheek. Now stop before guns or drones are drawn!

I'm in America, so it's a safe bet I'm better equipped than you, as far as guns go.

 

[PhotonGuy]

As you saw earlier, I responded to him by asking why he believes that, out of 200 other countries, he believes that the US is the only country to ever do this. I brought up BJJ as an example of another country making an even bigger deal of black belt than the US. He then went on a ramble that should have amounted to him rescinding his previous statement, but he didn't.

I never said that the USA is the only country that makes a big deal out of first degree black belt, just that it's common to do that in the USA but not so common in Japan. As for how it's done in other countries aside from the USA and Japan I wouldn't know.

With BJJ yes it is hard to get a black belt and you've really got to put in your time, but there is not a big gap between brown and black (in proportion to the other belts) as there might be in other styles. The belts in BJJ are white, blue purple, brown, black. On the average it takes about two years to get from brown to black, but it also takes about two years to get from purple to brown, about two years to get from blue to purple, and about two years to get from white to blue. It doesn't take two years to get from purple to brown and then ten years to get from brown to black. Getting from brown to black is in proportion with the rest of the belts.

In any case, my response to his claim of it being "an American thing" was half me being deliberately obtuse, and half me giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Although I'll defend Americans to the death when I can, I have to come to grips with the fact he did something I cannot defend: when he said "American," he meant "Western."

When Im referring to it being an American thing what I mean is that it's common in the USA. I don't really know how common it is in other western countries and Im not comparing the USA to other western countries, Im comparing the USA to Japan.

Another example of this that I've seen all other the internet is the claim that "colored belts" (the ones that fall between white and brown) are "an American thing/invention" - when, in reality, it was invented in the UK by a Japanese judo instructor named Gunji Koizumi.

If you say so. Im not really concerned about the origin of the other colored belts (those between white and brown) in this thread.

"American" and "Western" are not synonymous. I wish Americans would stop using these terms as if they are, first, for the obvious reason. The second reason is that it lets other Western countries off the hook for doing things that Americans are not liable for.

No they're not, and that's why Im referring to certain trends (such as making a big gap between the ranks of Ikkyu and Shodan) as an American thing not a western thing. I just see it as common in the USA but I don't know if it's common in other western countries and that's not what Im discussing anyway. If I were to refer to it as being a western thing that would imply that it's common in all western countries not just the USA which is not what Im trying to do.

 

[Buka]

That was my dojo. I’d have everyone swap belts for a class, black belts swapping with white belts etc. Sometimes we’d just have everyone throw their belt in a pile and you’d just take one. You could take any color other than your own. We did that around every other month. Sometimes two or three nights in a row.

All the instructors would participate as well. As well any guest training with us that night.

It was done because, to us, belts don’t mean squat. Even though we had harsher belt grading than any dojo that I knew of (except one) we didn’t want students to be Belt whores.

As I’ve mention before, if a student asked “when’s the next belt test?”they would then be automatically excluded from it. They ALL knew that going in, they learned that before signing up, there was a sign on the wall to remind them.

If I were to run a dojo today I’d do it the same way.

 

[Buka]

That was my dojo. I’d have everyone swap belts for a class, black belts swapping with white belts etc. Sometimes we’d just have everyone throw their belt in a pile and you’d just take one. You could take any color other than your own. We did that around every other month. Sometimes two or three nights in a row.

All the instructors would participate as well. As well any guest training with us that night.

It was done because, to us, belts don’t mean squat. Even though we had harsher belt grading than any dojo that I knew of (except one) we didn’t want students to be Belt whores.

As I’ve mention before, if a student asked “when’s the next belt test?”they would then be automatically excluded from it. They ALL knew that going in, they learned that before signing up, there was a sign on the wall to remind them.

If I were to run a dojo today I’d do it the same way.

The above was in response to Photon guy’s question. I forgot to quote him, sorry.