How the Japanese view of the black belt

[Gyakuto]

Well yes, Shodan literally translates as "low man"

No it doesn’t. Those kanji say neither of those things!

 

[Gyakuto]

I don't know how countries other than the USA and Japan do it. All Im saying is that making it much harder to get from Ikkyu to Shodan than it is to get from Nikkyu to Ikkyu is very much an American thing but not a Japanese thing. I wouldn't know how it's done in other countries besides the USA and Japan.

Do you have any documented evidence for this being ‘very much an American thing’? Or is this pure conjecture on your part?

When I practised Karate, our teachers told us that hanging colours of belt (there were only three belts at kyu level 8-7th = white, 6-4th kyu = green and 3-1st = brown) was a little more difficult as it represented a visible ‘step change’ in our abilities. Nowhere was this made explicit, however.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No it doesn’t. Those kanji say neither of those things!

What do they literally say? I’ve heard many answers, but none of the answerers could read kanji.

 

[Gyakuto]

I think @OilyDragon defined it well as ‘beginning degree’ - sho meaning sort of ‘first rung’, ‘start’, ‘initial’ and Dan meaning ‘level of a scale’.

I think the English word ‘degree’ confuses things as it has two broad meanings as ‘increment’ (which can be tiny) and the lowest qualification obtainable at University, which is mistakenly viewed (by proud parents and grandparents) as meaning ‘expertise’.

 

[Fungus]

I don't know how countries other than the USA and Japan do it. All Im saying is that making it much harder to get from Ikkyu to Shodan than it is to get from Nikkyu to Ikkyu is very much an American thing but not a Japanese thing. I wouldn't know how it's done in other countries besides the USA and Japan.

Not sure if you mean the country from where the style is defined vs practiced?

I practice kyokushin karate in Europe, but as the style is Japanse, the ranking system follwos the standard of one of the various IKO kyokushin organisations.

Surely in our style, the requirements in between the belts are incremental. The level of perfection expected on a given technique also increases with rank. In addition to that, except for your skills, we have a minimum time and hours of practive REQUIRED to rank up. In the begining, the "step" between the kyu-ranks is typically a minimum of half a year. But, from 1 kyu to shodan, the requirement is 12 months AND you also need more HOURS or training from last grading. If I remember correctly I think there is also a TIME requirement in between the DAN ranks as well. Also in the shodan graduation, you need to pass a 30 main kumite. I have heard that a shodan gradutation in kyokushing is very hard, a long day of kihon, kata etc.. and also 30 man kumite. To endure that is part of the test. The lower rank does not have the same endurance requirements.

All our instructors also tells us that the black belt graduation is must harder than previous one.

The only American style I am aware of is american kenpo, but I dont know more than its founded by Ed Parker.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Im not all that aware of how karate was taught before WWII but I thought back then it wasn't really taught to non Japanese, period. You more or less had to be Japanese to even be allowed into a Japanese dojo to take lessons.

Hwang Kee and Lee Won-kuk beg to differ.

I do know karate was briefly banned after WWII so that might've affected how it was taught after the ban was lifted.

What Im talking about though is how karate is taught in contemporary Japan and how it compares with how it is taught in the contemporary USA. So how it's been taught within the last 40 years or so up till today is what Im talking about.

There are still Japanese karate organizations that won't promote non-Japanese higher than Godan. So while it may not be at the shodan level, rank is still being gatekept.

The Berlin Wall fell over 30 years ago, and Germany has been reunited ever since. However, many Germans will claim that the divide between former East and West Germany is just as real today as it was back then. That said, even if black belt being denied to non-Japanese is a thing of the past, you don't get to dismiss that as a supporting argument for it being a big deal in Japan.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Do you have any documented evidence for this being ‘very much an American thing’? Or is this pure conjecture on your part?

As you saw earlier, I responded to him by asking why he believes that, out of 200 other countries, he believes that the US is the only country to ever do this. I brought up BJJ as an example of another country making an even bigger deal of black belt than the US. He then went on a ramble that should have amounted to him rescinding his previous statement, but he didn't.

In any case, my response to his claim of it being "an American thing" was half me being deliberately obtuse, and half me giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Although I'll defend Americans to the death when I can, I have to come to grips with the fact he did something I cannot defend: when he said "American," he meant "Western."

Another example of this that I've seen all other the internet is the claim that "colored belts" (the ones that fall between white and brown) are "an American thing/invention" - when, in reality, it was invented in the UK by a Japanese judo instructor named Gunji Koizumi.

"American" and "Western" are not synonymous. I wish Americans would stop using these terms as if they are, first, for the obvious reason. The second reason is that it lets other Western countries off the hook for doing things that Americans are not liable for.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

As you saw earlier, I responded to him by asking why he believes that, out of 200 other countries, he believes that the US is the only country to ever do this. I brought up BJJ as an example of another country making an even bigger deal of black belt than the US. He then went on a ramble that should have amounted to him rescinding his previous statement, but he didn't.

In any case, my response to his claim of it being "an American thing" was half me being deliberately obtuse, and half me giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Although I'll defend Americans to the death when I can, I have to come to grips with the fact he did something I cannot defend: when he said "American," he meant "Western."

Another example of this that I've seen all other the internet is the claim that "colored belts" (the ones that fall between white and brown) are "an American thing/invention" - when, in reality, it was invented in the UK by a Japanese judo instructor named Gunji Koizumi.

"American" and "Western" are not synonymous. I wish Americans would stop using these terms as if they are, first, for the obvious reason. The second reason is that it lets other Western countries off the hook for doing things that Americans are not liable for.

I dot think it's an American thing, though it may have also happened (in parellel, even timewise) elsewhere. I've heard (though not from a Japanese source, so take it with a grain of sand) that many American GI's trained to shodan and went back to the US to teach. Whether that was a premeditated move by the Japanese instructors (to spread the art, with the limited amount of time they had with those GI's) or was just a natural result because there weren't enough "instructor rank" instructors in the US, I can't say. I also don't know if they did the same with other Allied forces - not sure if others were stationed in Japan long enough for that.

Those instructors - again, so I've been told - held that rank to a high standard, because it's what they had when they started teaching.

I'd love to hear from anyone more knowledgeable whether this seems to be true.

 

[Hyoho]

Well yes, Shodan literally translates as "low man" but its common in the USA to make a big deal out of it, to make it really hard to get, much harder than getting to Ikkyu.

So what you're saying is that the vast majority of the people who do martial arts in Japan are kids. In the USA there are lots of kids that do it but there are lots of adults that do it too. And there are people who make a living doing it.

Yes mostly kids. Those that make money are the adults that teach the kids. But it's mostly within education. You need a degree in Phys/Ed. A Dan grade is NOT a teaching qualification also associations do have an added Renshi, Kyoshi qualification. The dynamics are changing. Post war saw not enough sensei to go around (1980s) Now the child population has been declining for the last 16 years. A total population of 125 million with a projected decline to 85 million. Only 8% have ever participated in MA.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I dot think it's an American thing, though it may have also happened (in parellel, even timewise) elsewhere. I've heard (though not from a Japanese source, so take it with a grain of sand) that many American GI's trained to shodan and went back to the US to teach. Whether that was a premeditated move by the Japanese instructors (to spread the art, with the limited amount of time they had with those GI's) or was just a natural result because there weren't enough "instructor rank" instructors in the US, I can't say. I also don't know if they did the same with other Allied forces - not sure if others were stationed in Japan long enough for that.

Those instructors - again, so I've been told - held that rank to a high standard, because it's what they had when they started teaching.

I'd love to hear from anyone more knowledgeable whether this seems to be true.

I don't think there was any premeditation or plan, at least in Okinawa, to spread the art in the USA. The art was fractured there with no really strong organization. The masters were paid contractors with the Marine and Air Force bases to teach. It was a strictly financial transaction and not part of any master plan. I would guess this was true on mainland Japan as well, though perhaps to a lesser degree.

Many US servicemen got black belt within 2 years as they often rotated back to the states by then and got it because they could beat even well-trained natives due to their vastly superior size, muscle, and military combat training. Some were provisionally promoted to even higher ranks, to take effect after a few years, though a number of them claimed the higher rank as soon as they got back to the States.

Furthermore, they were not taught advanced bunkai as a rule, just the basic block, kick and punch version. This suited the physical Americans just fine and they went home thinking they knew real karate. So, this is the version of karate that spread in the USA (the Okinawan masters snickering all the way to the bank). But everyone was happy so it was a win-win.

There were exceptions to this, some senior servicemen spending years in serious training and earning a place of respect with the sensei, a few maintaining contact and returning for further study over the years.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I don't think there was any premeditation or plan, at least in Okinawa, to spread the art in the USA. The art was fractured there with no really strong organization. The masters were paid contractors with the Marine and Air Force bases to teach. It was a strictly financial transaction and not part of any master plan. I would guess this was true on mainland Japan as well, though perhaps to a lesser degree.

Many US servicemen got black belt within 2 years as they often rotated back to the states by then and got it because they could beat even well-trained natives due to their vastly superior size, muscle, and military combat training. Some were provisionally promoted to even higher ranks, to take effect after a few years, though a number of them claimed the higher rank as soon as they got back to the States.

Furthermore, they were not taught advanced bunkai as a rule, just the basic block, kick and punch version. This suited the physical Americans just fine and they went home thinking they knew real karate. So, this is the version of karate that spread in the USA (the Okinawan masters snickering all the way to the bank). But everyone was happy so it was a win-win.

There were exceptions to this, some senior servicemen spending years in serious training and earning a place of respect with the sensei, a few maintaining contact and returning for further study over the years.

It just doesn't seem possible for the American GI's to have been learning "crap" the whole time without knowing about it.

First, if they were training with native Okinawan students (they must have been, if they were known to be able to beat well-trained native Okinawans), they would have noticed the Okinawan students training in things that they themselves were not.

Second, all of the Okinawan masters would have to be colluding. Because if some were not, then the differences in training among American GIs would quickly be found out.

And then there's the fact if these GI's were spreading and teaching "crap," the Okinawan masters would be fully aware of the fact that their names (and ultimately their reputation) would be attached to said crap.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Mr. Lunch, although I follow your logic, it is based on faulty assumptions, and you have drawn wrong conclusions on every count.

It just doesn't seem possible for the American GI's to have been learning "crap" the whole time without knowing about it.

I wouldn't call strong karate basics "crap." It was just much of the advanced "hidden" kata applications were not taught to them as they weren't there long enough to get to that stage. A fair amount of holding back of these applications was also done in the 1920's and 30's during the export of Okinawan karate to Japan. As for the GI's not knowing there was more to it than what they were taught, there's a saying, "You don't know what you don't know."

First, if they were training with native Okinawan students (they must have been, if they were known to be able to beat well-trained native Okinawans), they would have noticed the Okinawan students training in things that they themselves were not.

As I mentioned in my post, the instruction (1950's and 60's) was done on military posts, so exposure to advanced Okinawan practitioners learning kata was limited, their instruction being done at off-base dojo and other more private settings.

Second, all of the Okinawan masters would have to be colluding. Because if some were not, then the differences in training among American GIs would quickly be found out.

Only a few of the masters were contracted by the military to teach, such as Shorinryu's Eizo Shimabukuro and Isshinryu's Tatsuo Shimabuku (Eizo's big brother) and Tatsuo's son, Kichiro. I don't know to what extent other styles were taught at military installations.

But in the 1920's and 30's there actually was collusion by leading Okinawan masters (documented in the meeting's minutes) to keep some deeper aspects of their art from the mainland Japanese. Although the Ryukyu Kingdom had become part of Japan 50 yrs. earlier, they still retained regional loyalty and independence of thought.

And then there's the fact if these GI's were spreading and teaching "crap," the Okinawan masters would be fully aware of the fact that their names (and ultimately their reputation) would be attached to said crap.

See my response to your 1st quote above. As for the masters' reputation, this was most important among their peer group, namely other Okinawan masters they knew well and trained with. What they taught foreigners (who by the way, had bombed, burned and massacred the crap out of their little island only 10-20 years earlier) had little impact on their mutual respect for one another.

Most of this info I have shared is common knowledge amongst many of the more senior Okinawan practitioners, old enough to have had contact with these masters or their direct students, or otherwise educated in TMA history. I stand by the veracity and accuracy of my posts on this subject.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Mr. Lunch, although I follow your logic, it is based on faulty assumptions, and you have drawn wrong conclusions on every count.

I wouldn't call strong karate basics "crap." It was just much of the advanced "hidden" kata applications were not taught to them as they weren't there long enough to get to that stage. A fair amount of holding back of these applications was also done in the 1920's and 30's during the export of Okinawan karate to Japan. As for the GI's not knowing there was more to it than what they were taught, there's a saying, "You don't know what you don't know."

As I mentioned in my post, the instruction (1950's and 60's) was done on military posts, so exposure to advanced Okinawan practitioners learning kata was limited, their instruction being done at off-base dojo and other more private settings.

Only a few of the masters were contracted by the military to teach, such as Shorinryu's Eizo Shimabukuro and Isshinryu's Tatsuo Shimabuku (Eizo's big brother) and Tatsuo's son, Kichiro. I don't know to what extent other styles were taught at military installations.

But in the 1920's and 30's there actually was collusion by leading Okinawan masters (documented in the meeting's minutes) to keep some deeper aspects of their art from the mainland Japanese. Although the Ryukyu Kingdom had become part of Japan 50 yrs. earlier, they still retained regional loyalty and independence of thought.

See my response to your 1st quote above. As for the masters' reputation, this was most important among their peer group, namely other Okinawan masters they knew well and trained with. What they taught foreigners (who by the way, had bombed, burned and massacred the crap out of their little island only 10-20 years earlier) had little impact on their mutual respect for one another.

Most of this info I have shared is common knowledge amongst many of the more senior Okinawan practitioners, old enough to have had contact with these masters or their direct students, or otherwise educated in TMA history. I stand by the veracity and accuracy of my posts on this subject.

I vaguely remember some of this from a discussion I had with a senior Shorin-ryu instructor (his name entirely escapes me at the moment, which saddens me - he was a really nice guy) a few years ago. One of his students owned the dojo I taught my NGA classes at just prior to the pandemic shutting it down.

And even ignoring the money side of it, this would make sense. There's only so much you could pass on in the available timeframe, and you'd have a bunch of vigorous, disciplined men to work with. So you'd leverage what you could best deliver to them, and that would be fundamentals that could be solidified quite well in that amount of time and that fit the mindset and abilities they came in with.

 

[Hyoho]

I don't think there was any premeditation or plan, at least in Okinawa, to spread the art in the USA. The art was fractured there with no really strong organization. The masters were paid contractors with the Marine and Air Force bases to teach. It was a strictly financial transaction and not part of any master plan. I would guess this was true on mainland Japan as well, though perhaps to a lesser degree.

Some years ago there were few Westerners in Japan practicing any Budo and infrequent musashugyo. Back in 1980 there was only four foreigners in a the city of one million I lived in. Two doing budo and two mormons. It's has been a developing thing over the years of foreigners trying to reach Japanese standards.

 

[Gyakuto]

Some years ago there were few Westerners in Japan practicing any Budo and infrequent musashugyo. Back in 1980 there was only four foreigners in a the city of one million I lived in. Two doing budo and two mormons. It's has been a developing thing over the years of foreigners trying to reach Japanese standards.

From the conversations I’ve had, with noted practitioners about ‘Japanese standards’, the consensus is that theytend to start their journey at a much earlier age and so fit in more repetitions in unit time, and at a time when their neuroplasticity is at it’s greatest allowing them to learn much more deeply.

Westerners tend to commence their practise, much later in life when the critical period for learning motor skills is closing and less time is available for repetition due to life’s commitments and being ‘…shorter of breath and one day closer to death’!

 

[Hyoho]

From the conversations I’ve had, with noted practitioners about ‘Japanese standards’, the consensus is that they tend to start their journey at a much earlier age and so fit in more repetitions in unit time, and at a time when their neuroplasticity is at it’s greatest allowing them to learn much more deeply.

Westerners tend to commence their practise, much later in life when the critical period for learning motor skills is closing and less time is available for repetition due to life’s commitments and being ‘…shorter of breath and one day closer to death’!

Yes. This was my concern. being older and practicing with very young people with far more experience time wise. But my age actual won the day in fact that young people waste a lot of energy and rely on being young and fast rather than think it through. But it still took me nearly a year of solid practice until I dropped, ten times week to learn that actual aggression was messing up my keiko rather than stay relaxed.

 

[Gyakuto]

Yes. This was my concern. being older and practicing with very young people with far more experience time wise. But my age actual won the day in fact that young people waste a lot of energy and rely on being young and fast rather than think it through. But it still took me nearly a year of solid practice until I dropped, ten times week to learn that actual aggression was messing up my keiko rather than stay relaxed.

Some young practitioners do ‘get it’ and they often become the better martial arts. It’s just like some young people realise that working hard at school and college pays dividends in later life whilst other children just mess around, have a good time partying at school and have no option but to spend their whole adult lives working long, hours in back-breaking jobs.

 

[PhotonGuy]

No it doesn’t. Those kanji say neither of those things!

Well what it means is beginning degree as it is the beginning degree in the dan ranks. Considering the fact that in many styles they have ranks that go up to 10th Dan, it's safe to say that Shodan, the rank of 1st Dan, is a rather low rank.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Do you have any documented evidence for this being ‘very much an American thing’? Or is this pure conjecture on your part?

My evidence would be my own research as well as, to a certain extent, my own experience. My own research would be magazine articles I would read. I used to read the magazine "Inside Karate" back when it was around as the magazine was discontinued in 1999. Another magazine I would read and sometimes still do would be Blackbelt.

As for my own experience I've trained under both Japanese and American instructors. I've also known lots of people who've trained in all different sorts of arts under instructors from all around the world.

When I practised Karate, our teachers told us that hanging colours of belt (there were only three belts at kyu level 8-7th = white, 6-4th kyu = green and 3-1st = brown) was a little more difficult as it represented a visible ‘step change’ in our abilities. Nowhere was this made explicit, however.

Your dojo must've been really old school to have only three belt colors before black belt. I believe at first the only belt colors were white and black and then they gradually added in brown and then gradually added in more colors. Today it's not uncommon to have six or seven belt colors before black belt although I believe that is a relatively modern thing, by modern I mean within the last forty years or so.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Not sure if you mean the country from where the style is defined vs practiced?

I practice kyokushin karate in Europe, but as the style is Japanse, the ranking system follwos the standard of one of the various IKO kyokushin organisations.

Surely in our style, the requirements in between the belts are incremental. The level of perfection expected on a given technique also increases with rank. In addition to that, except for your skills, we have a minimum time and hours of practive REQUIRED to rank up. In the begining, the "step" between the kyu-ranks is typically a minimum of half a year. But, from 1 kyu to shodan, the requirement is 12 months AND you also need more HOURS or training from last grading. If I remember correctly I think there is also a TIME requirement in between the DAN ranks as well.

Time requirements I can understand, within reason. Requiring a certain number of hours of training before you can promote, I can see why that might be a requirement too, although I take it homework doesn't count in this case.

Also in the shodan graduation, you need to pass a 30 main kumite. I have heard that a shodan gradutation in kyokushing is very hard, a long day of kihon, kata etc.. and also 30 man kumite. To endure that is part of the test. The lower rank does not have the same endurance requirements.

Well in my opinion if you're going to have those kinds of requirements for Shodan it would make sense to have requirements that are almost as hard for 1st Kyu. For instance, if you have to pass a 30 man kumite to make it to Shodan you should have to pass a 20 man kumite to make it to 1st Kyu. You should also have to do almost as much kihon and kata for 1st Kyu as you have to do for Shodan. That way it balances it off and you don't have a first grader trying to pass a calculus exam, metaphorically speaking, when you have somebody testing for Shodan in Kyokushin.

All our instructors also tells us that the black belt graduation is must harder than previous one.

See above.

The only American style I am aware of is american kenpo, but I dont know more than its founded by Ed Parker.

I know very little about Kempo myself. I did it for a couple of weeks so I know some of the basics and I do know it was founded by Ed Parker as you pointed out.