How the Japanese view of the black belt

[HighKick]

Well that's your experience. As for me, I do not know the percentage of karate instructors in the USA who are from the USA vs those who are from Japan but the point is, as I said in post #217, that I would think an instructor from Japan whose teaching in the USA would teach the way they would in Japan.

It changes over time. Instructors do go through a certain amount of conformity, no matter where they are from.

 

[Hot Lunch]

And I’d bet good money that most people who did that 500 push-up requirement didn’t do anything like 500 decent push-ups. I had an instructor who bragged how many he could do (as well as how quickly). While he was more fit than me, when he demonstrated his per-minute prowess, he was doing “mini-presses”.

During my last test at that dojo, I walked past the students who were doing that portion of the shodan test a few times.. From what I recall, when they count to 25, for example, they don't keep counting if you're not keeping up with it. You actually have to physically push yourself up for each repetition to count. It's not going be 500 proper form pushups, but it is 500 pushups nonetheless.

On another note, there's a book that caught my attention that I may be ordering soon. It's called Karate Stupid by Scott Langley. In it, he alleges that he went through years of physical abuse at the JKS instructor's course in Japan. Because of this book, he was excommunicated from JKS and joined WTKO. Later, he founded HDKI and is the head of it.

 

[_Simon_]

During my last test at that dojo, I walked past the students who were doing that portion of the shodan test a few times.. From what I recall, when they count to 25, for example, they don't keep counting if you're not keeping up with it. You actually have to physically push yourself up for each repetition to count. It's not going be 500 proper form pushups, but it is 500 pushups nonetheless.

On another note, there's a book that caught my attention that I may be ordering soon. It's called Karate Stupid by Scott Langley. In it, he alleges that he went through years of physical abuse at the JKS instructor's course in Japan. Because of this book, he was excommunicated from JKS and joined WTKO. Later, he founded HDKI and is the head of it.

Scott Langley Sensei is fantastic, I plan on reading his books too, but yes highly recommended as an instructor. That's all, carry on!

 

[PhotonGuy]

Mostly, I'll agree - their method will be an outcome of their past experience. It's likely altered some by the environment they are in (both the cultural influence on them, and the different needs/expectations of the students).

I expect there are arts where there's a higher percentage of Asian instructors. When I think of the TKD, Hapkido, and Kuk Sool Wan schools I've seen (not visited), those had a much higher percentage of Asian chief instructors/owners than the Karate, Aikido, Judo, FMA, etc. that I've either seen or visited.

Well as I point out with the very title of this thread, to the best of my knowledge Japanese senseis do not have the same viewpoint on the rank of Shodan (first degree black belt) that American senseis do. Isshinryuronin mentioned that a Japanese sensei would not have you break anything or run any distance for a Shodan test the way such stuff might be required in a test run by an American sensei (as in my case that I mentioned earlier where I had to break two bricks and run three miles for my Shodan test in Goju Ryu under an American sensei) but this isn't really about whether or not a Japanese sensei would have breaking and running in any of their belt tests. Rather this is about how hard a Japanese sensei would make the requirements for Shodan in proportion to the requirements for Ikkyu. I believe in Japan, generally speaking, the requirements for Shodan wouldn't be much harder than the requirements for Ikkyu or if you want to say it differently, the requirements for Ikkyu would be almost as hard as those for Shodan.

Making the requirements for Shodan considerably harder than those for Ikkyu is very much an American thing not a Japanese thing. That is how it is at my Goju Ryu dojo as it is run by an American sensei. I would not think a Japanese sensei would do it like that regardless if they're teaching in Japan, the USA, or anywhere else. Under a Japanese sensei the time to get from Ikkyu to Shodan would not be much longer than the time to get from Nikkyu to Ikkyu and the requirements for Shodan wouldn't be much harder than those for Ikkyu. The Japanese view the rank of Shodan as just another rank.

 

[Hyoho]

Well that's rather obvious. Examinations test where you are at the present time, at the time you're taking the examination, not where you will be or where you hope to be in the future.

Not to some. I have seen examiners saying things like, "He can't do this/that."

 

[Hyoho]

Well as I point out with the very title of this thread, to the best of my knowledge Japanese senseis do not have the same viewpoint on the rank of Shodan (first degree black belt) that American senseis do.

It's not really a point of view. Shodan (初段), literally means beginning degree. Its not just MA but Shodo, Go etc. As I mentioned before its really a stage that one goes through as a teenager in Japan. There not so many adults that take up these things apart from fathers that do it with the kids. MA really is like little league in Japan. Which brings us back round to the question of why we do it. And is it self defence thing in Japan? The main population are kids. Judo and Kendo are Phys/Ed subjects. My campus has every class doing one or the other for one morning each week. At least it teaches them to sit in seiza as many can't even do that.

 

[Hot Lunch]

The Japanese view the rank of Shodan as just another rank.

I can see that being the case in Okinawa, because the kyu/dan system originated in the mainland, which could make Okinawans not as vested in it (but I'm just speculating).

But the Japanese?

Before World War II, you had to be Japanese in order to earn a black belt. Non-Japanese topped out at ikkyu. So there's definitely some history of the Japanese gatekeeping the rank of shodan. If they viewed it as "just another rank," this wouldn't have happened.

Furthermore, if it was "just another rank," then there would no mudansha and yudansha. There would just be straight linear ranks numbered 1 through 20, or 20 through 1.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Making the requirements for Shodan considerably harder than those for Ikkyu is very much an American thing not a Japanese thing.

Of the 200 countries in the world, only the US did this?

The martial art with the longest and hardest path to black belt is BJJ (Brazil). The martial art that has made the black belt literally impossible to attain is Soo Bahk Do (South Korea).

 

[Hyoho]

I can see that being the case in Okinawa, because the kyu/dan system originated in the mainland, which could make Okinawans not as vested in it (but I'm just speculating).

But the Japanese?

Before World War II, you had to be Japanese in order to earn a black belt. Non-Japanese topped out at ikkyu. So there's definitely some history of the Japanese gatekeeping the rank of shodan. If they viewed it as "just another rank," this wouldn't have happened.

Furthermore, if it was "just another rank," then there would no mudansha and yudansha. There would just be straight linear ranks numbered 1 through 20, or 20 through 1.

Well it is a sort of matter of fact thing to those that practice every day. The only requirement I have seen is sandan to get into the police or prison service. Or if at university you are studying to become a full time teacher/sensei. It will also get you preference in obtaining employment. It's considered that a Budoka is a responsible hard working person. I have yet to see anybody fail on this basis until you get up to Rokudan. The biggest drop out rate is reaching rokudan. Maybe because it's a national grade and you have then reached level where you are expected to take responsibility in judging etc. They dont drop out because they are shirking. Most people with other full time jobs simply don't have the time.

P.S. My father-in-law was the youngest person to pass Kendo Godan after WWll at 23 years of age. But his sensei was Oasa Yuji - Judan.

 

[Buka]

Of the 200 countries in the world, only the US did this?

The martial art with the longest and hardest path to black belt is BJJ (Brazil). The martial art that has made the black belt literally impossible to attain is Soo Bahk Do (South Korea).

This BJJ model is just one of the reasons I admire that Art so much.
I don’t think just anyone should make black belt just because they show up for a couple of years and go through the motions without any heart or grit involved.

Martial Arts ain’t an easy path.

 

[Hot Lunch]

This BJJ model is just one of the reasons I admire that Art so much.
I don’t think just anyone should make black belt just because they show up for a couple of years and go through the motions without any heart or grit involved.

Martial Arts ain’t an easy path.

Fair enough, but I'm certain that I'm eventually going to catch someone here praising the Japanese for viewing shodan as "just another rank" (this claim reeks of conjecture) in one thread, while praising BJJ for the significance placed on their black belts in another thread.

I'm perfectly fine with the way it is (i.e., each art managing their respective ranking systems however they see fit). But those arguing that it should be a certain way need to pick one.

 

[Buka]

Fair enough, but I'm certain that I'm eventually going to catch someone here praising the Japanese for viewing shodan as "just another rank" (this claim reeks of conjecture) in one thread, while praising BJJ for the significance placed on their black belts in another thread.

I'm perfectly fine with the way it is (i.e., each art managing their respective ranking systems however they see fit). But those arguing that it should be a certain way need to pick one.

Realistic technique aside, I don’t think anything in Martial Arts should be a certain way.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Realistic technique aside, I don’t think anything in Martial Arts should be a certain way.

Agreed. I personally prefer the long road to BB, for instance (my primary art usually takes almost as long to BB as BJJ, though for different reasons). But I stop short of saying other arts should be that way.

 

[Hyoho]

Realistic technique aside, I don’t think anything in Martial Arts should be a certain way.

But anyway it's usually associations that do these things like gradings. Not individual dojo.

 

[PhotonGuy]

It's not really a point of view. Shodan (初段), literally means beginning degree. Its not just MA but Shodo, Go etc.

Well yes, Shodan literally translates as "low man" but its common in the USA to make a big deal out of it, to make it really hard to get, much harder than getting to Ikkyu.

As I mentioned before it's really a stage that one goes through as a teenager in Japan. There not so many adults that take up these things apart from fathers that do it with the kids. MA really is like little league in Japan. Which brings us back round to the question of why we do it. And is it self defence thing in Japan? The main population are kids. Judo and Kendo are Phys/Ed subjects. My campus has every class doing one or the other for one morning each week. At least it teaches them to sit in seiza as many can't even do that.

So what you're saying is that the vast majority of the people who do martial arts in Japan are kids. In the USA there are lots of kids that do it but there are lots of adults that do it too. And there are people who make a living doing it.

 

[PhotonGuy]

It changes over time. Instructors do go through a certain amount of conformity, no matter where they are from.

True, to a certain extent. For instance, in the USA the main language is English so if you're going to teach in the USA you better be able to speak English because you're not going to be speaking Japanese when you're teaching in the USA (unlike if you were teaching in Japan). The only time you might be speaking in Japanese when you're teaching in the USA is when you're using the Japanese names for various techniques and forms, and in some cases you might count in Japanese when you're counting out repetitions for exercises and drills. But aside from that you will be speaking in English when you teach so you're right that there has to be some conformity.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I can see that being the case in Okinawa, because the kyu/dan system originated in the mainland, which could make Okinawans not as vested in it (but I'm just speculating).

But the Japanese?

Before World War II, you had to be Japanese in order to earn a black belt. Non-Japanese topped out at ikkyu. So there's definitely some history of the Japanese gatekeeping the rank of shodan. If they viewed it as "just another rank," this wouldn't have happened.

Im not all that aware of how karate was taught before WWII but I thought back then it wasn't really taught to non Japanese, period. You more or less had to be Japanese to even be allowed into a Japanese dojo to take lessons. I do know karate was briefly banned after WWII so that might've affected how it was taught after the ban was lifted.

What Im talking about though is how karate is taught in contemporary Japan and how it compares with how it is taught in the contemporary USA. So how it's been taught within the last 40 years or so up till today is what Im talking about.

Furthermore, if it was "just another rank," then there would no mudansha and yudansha. There would just be straight linear ranks numbered 1 through 20, or 20 through 1.

Well naturally getting to Shodan will be harder than getting to Ikkyu as it's a higher rank but apparently it won't be much harder under a Japanese instructor, nor will getting from Ikkyu to Shodan take much longer than getting from Nikkyu to Ikkyu. Where rank advancement does get really hard in Japan is when you start going up the Dan ranks, going from Shodan to Nidan, Nidan to Sandan, ect. to the best of my knowledge.

 

[isshinryuronin]

but its common in the USA to make a big deal out of it, to make it really hard to get, much harder than getting to Ikkyu.

Okay. We all get your viewpoint. Shodan is hard to get. Most all of us will agree. Let's move on.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Of the 200 countries in the world, only the US did this?

I don't know how countries other than the USA and Japan do it. All Im saying is that making it much harder to get from Ikkyu to Shodan than it is to get from Nikkyu to Ikkyu is very much an American thing but not a Japanese thing. I wouldn't know how it's done in other countries besides the USA and Japan.

The martial art with the longest and hardest path to black belt is BJJ (Brazil). The martial art that has made the black belt literally impossible to attain is Soo Bahk Do (South Korea).

Speaking from my own experience as somebody who does BJJ as well as other arts I would say that BJJ definitely has one of the hardest and longest paths to black belt and its famous for that but there are other arts where it can perhaps be just as hard and take just as long. It all depends on your sensei and how he teaches, what standards he has. Im not much aware of the Korean art of Soo Bahk Do but I do know that with some of the Korean arts black belts are sometimes handed out like candy, Tae Kwon Do for instance.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Okay. We all get your viewpoint. Shodan is hard to get. Most all of us will agree. Let's move on.

Nope you're putting words in my mouth.