How much practice is enough?

[superkizuna]

You can never practice enough.... ever. Martial Arts are forms. Forms are perfect. You can constantly get closer to perfection with each practice. Masters understand the logic behind the form, practice helps you express this logic in physical form.

 

[Instructor]

NO..... Forms are not perfection. Perfection should not be sought. Perfection is a mirage. If ever you think you've achieved it then you are as far from it as a person can get it. Telling a child to practice something till it's perfect or any student for that matter is hubris.

 

[superkizuna]

NO..... Forms are not perfection. Perfection should not be sought. Perfection is a mirage. If ever you think you've achieved it then you are as far from it as a person can get it. Telling a child to practice something till it's perfect or any student for that matter is hubris.

I don't think you undertsand what I'm saying. A form is perfect. You strive towards perfection. A person trying to do a technique perfectly or with perfect form is obviously not perfect. He or she can never be perfect or achieve perfection. The form is the technique as it occurs in purity without error. It is why you practice because you are not perfect. Satisfied with how close you are to perfection is a different thread. Perfection occurs in our minds and you aim for it everytime you punch, kick, throw, or grab.

And if you think you have achieved perfection it does not mean that you are '.....as far from it as a person can get it.....', automatically. You could be close. Thinking you are perfect means you are satisfied or happy with your proximity to perfection.

I guess you have never heard of Plato.

 

[Cyriacus]

I don't think you undertsand what I'm saying. A form is perfect. You strive towards perfection. A person trying to do a technique perfectly or with perfect form is obviously not perfect. He or she can never be perfect or achieve perfection. The form is the technique as it occurs in purity without error. It is why you practice because you are not perfect. Satisfied with how close you are to perfection is a different thread. Perfection occurs in our minds and you aim for it everytime you punch, kick, throw, or grab.

And if you think you have achieved perfection it does not mean that you are '.....as far from it as a person can get it.....', automatically. You could be close. Thinking you are perfect means you are satisfied or happy with your proximity to perfection.

I guess you have never heard of Plato.

So now the question is, is your definition of perfect personal, or related to the perfection of the technical side of a movement as defined by a system?

 

[superkizuna]

So now the question is, is your definition of perfect personal, or related to the perfection of the technical side of a movement as defined by a system?

technical side of a movement as defined by a system.

 

[Cyriacus]

technical side of a movement as defined by a system.

And now the part where you acknowledge that other peoples definition of perfect is different to yours and/or any given system has to kick in

 

[Instructor]

A Form is merely a training aid to try to learn movement. Most of the time it isn't even the movement you would use in actual combat. I have nothing against Forms, learned quite a few myself. But my point is telling a student to practice something because it's perfect is at odd's with what is best for the student.

I've read the works of Plato and Aristotle. I know what Arete is.. seeking perfection without achieving it. I get that. But Martial Arts are so much more and...well so much less than this. Seeking perfection is a fools errand.

Martial Arts should be treated as a lifelong endeavor. If a student can move proficiently for his level and is ready to move the next that should be the measure, not practice this perfect movement till you can approach it's perfection. Pretty sure even Plato would agree with me on that one.

 

[superkizuna]

Form, not pumse or kata. I don't mean form like what you do to win a shiney trophy or a new belt.

 

[superkizuna]

And now the part where you acknowledge that other peoples definition of perfect is different to yours and/or any given system has to kick in

I simply mean perfection in the litteral sense.

 

[Cyriacus]

I simply mean perfection in the litteral sense.

Perfect for what? Its a little more complicated than 'just perfect'. Technique (as in, picture perfect kind) is only one of many things you can fixate on and define as being 'perfection'.

 

[superkizuna]

the concept of pefection. if I had to explain I would say it is a gradient, a graduation of performance.

 

[Cyriacus]

the concept of pefection. if I had to explain I would say it is a gradient, a graduation of performance.

Graduation of performance? Now, performance in what regard? How it looks? What it does? And is graduation success for you, or looking right?

 

[Instructor]

Form, not pumse or kata. I don't mean form like what you do to win a shiney trophy or a new belt.

You don't know me or have any idea why I train or teach. I have never learned anything in martial arts to earn a trophy or a belt. I learn so if I get in a fight I might prevail. Also, it's a heck of a lot of fun.

 

[superkizuna]

You're right I don't know you and you don't know what I'm talking about. Honestly, why you train or teach doesn't matter to me either. I'm glad you think martial arts is fun.

 

[jks9199]

You're right I don't know you and you don't know what I'm talking about. Honestly, why you train or teach doesn't matter to me either. I'm glad you think martial arts is fun.

Welcome to MartialTalk. Perhaps you might take a few minutes, and stop by the Meet & Greet, and tell us a bit about yourself. That might give everyone a chance to stop talking AT each other and begin talking TO or WITH each other.

 

[arnisador]

You can never practice enough.... ever.

In a single day, though, a point comes where you're reinforcing sloppy technique due to physical and mental fatigue.

 

[WaterGal]

Whether it's children or adults this is an extremely subjective question. People learn in different ways and at different rates. I have some students that just seem to careen headlong through our curriculum and I find myself having to apply the brake a bit. I have others that would never promote if I didn't tell them they are ready to move forward.

So the answer, it depends on the student.

Absolutely. Everybody is going to learn at a different pace, have different strengths and weaknesses, and also, have different goals of what they want to get out of their training. You can't put an absolute number figure on how much time everybody needs to practice in order to meet their goals.

We have one little girl at our dojang who takes class every day and also practices at home. She's so dedicated and excited about doing TKD, it's really heartwarming. But she's not very coordinated, and has had a hard time with pretty much everything that she's learned, so she's still moving at about the same pace as some other students that only come in 2x per week. So the amount she needs to practice is different than some of her peers.

 

[Grenadier]

This is just from my own experience, but it seems to work quite well.

Someone just starting out is going to need a bit more time to rest up between sessions, since the new student is going to be using muscles that haven't really been put to the test before. As a general rule of thumb, for the first couple of months, twice a week, one hour a day, is a good start.

As the new student gets better conditioned, and more used to the regimen, that's when the amount of training can be upped to maybe three days a week, one hour a day. Once the student has had about six months of training, that's when upping things to maybe two classes a day for some of those days, can really help accelerate things.

Once the student has been in there for a year, it may be entirely possible that training every day can be possible, and beneficial, although this has to be evaluated from person to person.

 

[superkizuna]

In a single day, though, a point comes where you're reinforcing sloppy technique due to physical and mental fatigue.

That is where your technique born.

 

[Rokuta]

Interesting discussion. Just to be sure I have followed the line of thought - when beginning a new MA it is best to go at a speed you can manage (physically, mentally, etc), and to fit your practice both to your individual goals and available time. Does this sound . . . sound?

Kids, teachers, short order cooks, firefighters, and office workers all have different demands on their time. Pratice every night is just not possible in my case since the lawn still grows and the house gets dirty. Those lousy cats refuse to do any chores. But I usually practice two nights a week at home for an hour plus the two 2-hour classes offered each week. I'm thinking of attending a third ninpo class under the same sensei, which is closer to my house, but it is geared a bit differently and held in a parkour gym. :/

What is important for me is that I haven't quit at 6 months, am enjoying myself, and have seen marked improvement since day 1's zenpo debacle.