How do we desensitize our students to contact?

[bowser666]

Hey man I was responding to someone else. I agree with you.

Sorry about that. I didn't see that reference. I am also sorry to hear that some teachers think students are meant to be punching bags. I personally think that you should train smarter and not HARD-er. Meaning the impact aspects of it. Yes you need to know what it is liek to feel a hit, but that doesn't mean pound the crap out of each other either. Save that for people in the street. Best training you can provide someone in my opinion is not how to take a hit, but how to think under pressure, and how to control your adrenaline. Not , how to go toe to toe with a combatant. It kind of doesn't make sense to me. Sorry................ Fighting is 90% thought and 10% physical combat.

 

[just2kicku]

Sorry about that. I didn't see that reference. I am also sorry to hear that some teachers think students are meant to be punching bags. I personally think that you should train smarter and not HARD-er. Meaning the impact aspects of it. Yes you need to know what it is liek to feel a hit, but that doesn't mean pound the crap out of each other either. Save that for people in the street. Best training you can provide someone in my opinion is not how to take a hit, but how to think under pressure, and how to control your adrenaline. Not , how to go toe to toe with a combatant. It kind of doesn't make sense to me. Sorry................ Fighting is 90% thought and 10% physical combat.

I don't recall anyone saying to use students as punching bags. I never minded being used as a punching bag, I fugured that one of these days I'll get tired of being hit and at least my defense will get better. it's one thing to hit your students and a whole other to beat them senseless. Contact has to be there, no other way around it.

 

[Slihn]

Yes, I agree with you. But when it comes time to practice these techniques or blocks it does no good to practice them half assed. I am a firm believer in Hard in practice, Easy in battle. I tell the students to not short stroke their punches because when you get to the street and you're used to doing that you'll do it to an attacker. My instructor always said it takes pain to kill pain. The more you do something the easier it gets.

I am not talking about practice techniques incorrectly , but more technically while acutally learning the technique. You are not going to drill those techniques into memory by killing your parthners. For example in Muay Thai we go REALLY hard on the Thai Pads , we let ALL of our power out , but we spar with high intensity but low impact. This way you will develop correct skill , muscle memory and correct technique.

I use to think that it was better to go all out and try to knock out my sparring parthners when I first started Muay Thai . Yeah I could take a punch , I guess , but I had no real skill , I was becoming more like a brawler instead of a fighter.It wasnt until I started the high instensity lower impact sparring that I started to have skill that I acutally used in the ring. Remember its muscle memory what we are stiving for no matter what style. If you spar so hard that you cant walk for two days then it doesnt do you much good. In class (after pad work) we spar about 5 - 10 3min rounds + with different sparring parthners. When you spar , it should be instensive enough to almost remsemble a real fight , but low impact enough so that you can spar all night and acutally be able to train and do it again the next day.

In fights I can almost tell who trains this way and who doesnt.

 

[shihansmurf]

Well, let's see if this thread about contact in training hits all the bases for devolving into a pointless contest of dick waving...

1. If you ain't punching hard you ain't training, or some version thereof. Check. Look, people train for a lot of reasons. Actually developing useful fighting skills does not always rank high on that last, as absurd as I personally find that, and for those folks the need to beat the hell out of each other in class just isn't there. For anyone to look down their noses at another martial artist that knowingly trains in a light contact school, who has no delusions of being an actual fighter, is laughable.

2. What about rape survivors? How do you handle rape survivors? What do you do about abused women?

I send them to people that are actually qualified to help them. Everyone that walks through the door of my dojo is unique. Some I have the ability to teach and others I don't. People that have the degree of emotional issues that have been described in this thread are beyond my ability level as an instructor of a sport. I, like the overwhelming majority of other contributers to this thread, do not work in the mental health field( I presume-I could be wrong, on other peoples qualifications) and am threrefore not qualified be a part of their therapy without the supervision of a qualified mental health professional present. Last I checked my black belt didn't equate to a degree in psychology.

3. Soldiers train to kill. We civilians should train like soldiers. About this time some one will chime in with the observation that civilian martial artist are not soldiers and shouldn't use the same methodology.

I don't have a lot to add. I just wanted to type out the above so I could make sure that I copy it to a Word document for the next time a thread like this pops up so I'll be prepared. I hope to be able to quickly copy and paste it in before the descussion devolves into those same points.

Look. As a soldier and a martial artist, it is interesting to me how often I get drawn into these type of conversations. Hand to hand is a tertiary skill for us.It is vastly inferior as a combat skill to every form of weapon ever designed or improvised. Sort of the purpose of weapons, in fact.We shoot people.It works better. Looking to the military as the proving ground for a hand to hand system doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense. It isn't what we do. Not our raison d'etre. The UFC guys, much more logical. I would take a LEOs advice on most combatives over nearly any soldiers any day of the week, as they have more practical experiance. Just a professional soldiers view.

Back on topic.

Sit the student down and have a open talk with them. Find out what it is that they want from training. If it matches what you can, and are willing, to provide then explaing that physical contact is part and parcel of martial art training. Start with light contact in a very controlled mannerand work your way up to what ever the highest level of contact that you utilize in your school is.

TWINFIST: I, personally, agree with your approach. I don't know if it was the old school sensei I came up under or just the all the boxing I did when I was younger but I am of the view that the Arts are, ultimately, about the ability to fight. Just my view. It may not work for all but it is how I do things.





None of the above is aimed at any specific post or poster. I've read several of these threads on this topic and I noticed that they seem to devolve into
this same crap. I find this disheartening, given the knowledge base and intellect of the most of the people that post on these boards. There are too many well trained, well rounded, and informed people, that engage here to fall into these same responses.

Mark

 

[chisaotiger]

In our school we desensitize the adults the same way as the kids. We SPAR! We have a box of old gear to throw on the noobies, hands, feet and sometimes head gear (their choice) and put them toe to toe with higher ranking brown or black belts or even our Sifus. They bow and are taught to say out loud as a whole class, "I am not going to hurt you", "I am your friend", "I will control myself and my body" "I expect to get hit".
Then they shake hands and take defensive stances and when Sifu says spar, they go! At first they only spar for about 1 min rounds. Sifu then switches all the partners and by the end of sparring time they have sparred with at least 15 different people. For ground work our Sifu has them watch the upper ranks grapple (we take it easy when lower ranks are watching) and then invites them to take a turn if they want to. He is good at getting them to play! Sifu always makes it fun and games at first and then as a student progresses he will move them into the Intermediate classes and then the advanced classes. Also what helps is having your upper ranks come in to Begginers class to help play! So I think it is so important to have 3 classes. Sifu only moves them up when he thinks they are ready to rock-n-roll. We also spar with music cranked up and our classes tend to be a little air guitar/sparring! FUN FUN FUN!

 

[chisaotiger]

Another thought....

If an adult is coming in to learn martial arts I think they are already aware that martial arts is full of all kinds of contact so, it is no surprise to most adults that they are going to be hitting and be hit and if it is a surprise then they really don't belong in martial arts!!!!!! Our school actually has a separate class for women's self defense. They only learn self defense and are taught about scratching the eyes out & ripping the *alls off kind of stuff. They do not learn our art of KAJUKENBO (although eye scratching and *all ripping are great techniques!) they have more private lessons with our Sifu's and are not required to come to line up. Most of them however are able to overcome their "contact isssues" by the end of the women's class and come and join our regular basic class to learn the art. So having great Sifu's and many types of classes is they way we do it.
As we progress in our ranks we are also taught it is our responsibility to teach the under-belts as we spar. We show them as we go. We don't just beat the bejeezus out of em. We play as hard as they want to play and then when they start intermediate class (no time for playing anymore) we weed out the wusses with a few hard knocks now and then (~not really hurting them~) If they come back, they usually stay for life. Then by the time you reach advanced class you are expected to know and use control and at the same time go full force without going into the "danger zone".
FYI in all my short 5 years with my Sifu's we have only had one student who left because they got hit. She was also a Barbie Doll type and didn't want to spar at all anyway in case her make up got messed up. People like that do not belong in martial arts anyway!

 

[Stac3y]

LOL! The highlight of one of my club's events for kids is when they get someone to dress in a Red Man Suit and let the little monkeys whomp on him with sticks!

 

[bowser666]

Another thought....

If an adult is coming in to learn martial arts I think they are already aware that martial arts is full of all kinds of contact so, it is no surprise to most adults that they are going to be hitting and be hit and if it is a surprise then they really don't belong in martial arts!!!!!! Our school actually has a separate class for women's self defense. They only learn self defense and are taught about scratching the eyes out & ripping the *alls off kind of stuff. They do not learn our art of KAJUKENBO (although eye scratching and *all ripping are great techniques!) they have more private lessons with our Sifu's and are not required to come to line up. Most of them however are able to overcome their "contact isssues" by the end of the women's class and come and join our regular basic class to learn the art. So having great Sifu's and many types of classes is they way we do it.
As we progress in our ranks we are also taught it is our responsibility to teach the under-belts as we spar. We show them as we go. We don't just beat the bejeezus out of em. We play as hard as they want to play and then when they start intermediate class (no time for playing anymore) we weed out the wusses with a few hard knocks now and then (~not really hurting them~) If they come back, they usually stay for life. Then by the time you reach advanced class you are expected to know and use control and at the same time go full force without going into the "danger zone".
FYI in all my short 5 years with my Sifu's we have only had one student who left because they got hit. She was also a Barbie Doll type and didn't want to spar at all anyway in case her make up got messed up. People like that do not belong in martial arts anyway!

Its kind of a blanket statement and a wrong one at that for any one person to judge who or who should not be involved in martial Arts. Remember some people do it strictly for health aspects. Not just to kick *** and take some more names. Please try to remember that.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Contact is normal, and during practise there is a lot of contact. That is what some people have to overcome. In my experience, women generally have a higher initial boundary to contact and the concept of actually trying to hit someone. That disappears. (On a side note, never have I looked so beaten up as when I assisted in women self defense class )

But sparring is a different matter. I will not engage in full contact sparring. Period. MA is a hobby to me. I am a system engineer, and my brain is kinda important to me. I had a severe concussion once, and I don't fancy another one. My livelihood depends on the ability to spend 8-12 hours per day behind a computer screen. Risking a concussion is not worth it to me.
I like light and medium contact sparring, and grapling wrestling all out. Accidents can still happen, but the chance of concussion is significantly less than with full contact sparring.

So the argument that people refusing full contact are wusses is imo a load of crap. Just because you (chisaotiger ) happen to like full contact doesn't mean that everybody should do so, and it doesn't mean that people who don't should quit MA.

 

[TigerCraneGuy]

Contact is normal, and during practise there is a lot of contact. That is what some people have to overcome. In my experience, women generally have a higher initial boundary to contact and the concept of actually trying to hit someone. That disappears. (On a side note, never have I looked so beaten up as when I assisted in women self defense class )

But sparring is a different matter. I will not engage in full contact sparring. Period. MA is a hobby to me. I am a system engineer, and my brain is kinda important to me. I had a severe concussion once, and I don't fancy another one. My livelihood depends on the ability to spend 8-12 hours per day behind a computer screen. Risking a concussion is not worth it to me.
I like light and medium contact sparring, and grapling wrestling all out. Accidents can still happen, but the chance of concussion is significantly less than with full contact sparring.

So the argument that people refusing full contact are wusses is imo a load of crap. Just because you (chisaotiger ) happen to like full contact doesn't mean that everybody should do so, and it doesn't mean that people who don't should quit MA.

Excellent points.

Just thought I'd focus on the bolded bit and say this:

It's crucial that potential students of the martial arts research those particular systems or styles they are plan to take up, so as to avoid getting into something they're not prepared for.

For instance, I train in Kenpo 5.0 and it's not a low-contact system. And for that matter, from what I understand, Kajukenbo's philosophy of training is definitely not low-contact either.

I'm not saying these systems are full of psycho-types; myself and most of my fellow practitioners are just normal men and women who work a 10-12 hour day on top of learning how to handle ourselves out there in the real world. All I'm saying is that such systems generally attract those who want to train hard for street defense by a certain methodology and mindset.

So if a potential student does not like dishing out and experiencing contact and/ or hard, realistic (not psychotic, mind you) training, then perhaps they need to seek another style/ system/ school.

And there are many other styles/ systems/ schools out there, which would better cater to their needs. They don't have to quit MA altogether; they just have to decide what suits them best.

Sport, fitness, self-development, street survival; look for that which fits your requirements and and then go for it.

Do not, however, expect the philosophy of the style/ system/ school to change because you happen to disagree with it.

Best regards,
TCG

 

[Bruno@MT]

Of course you are right about that. A person should know what they are getting into, and understand that it is expected that they subject to the school's approach. And theat means they have to do some research up front.

It would be rather silly of me to start muay thai, kyukishinkan, or kempo (based on your description. no kempo around here) if I was not prepared to spar full contact

I don't have any negative thoughts about full contact, or those who do it. It's just not something I like doing myself, for the reasons mentioned above. And I have a lot of respect for people who do.

 

[sgtmac_46]

How do I have the wrong attitude lol ? Martial Arts is jsut this, you take away what you want from it. It is a ART, and a LIVING ART at that. It is adaptable to the practitioner. My attitude is that I am there to train and to learn, and gain more knowledge of self. How is that a wrong attitude ?It's MY ATTITUDE!I am confident enough in my well rounded abilities to handle myself appropriately. I am not going to live life with the Cobra Kai mentality of " There is no Pain in this dojo, fear does not exist in this dojo, there is no mercy , blah blah blah.

I am perfectly content with my attitude towards martial Arts.

Okay, Daniel-san.......:mst:

Cobra Kai......I haven't thought about them in years!

 

[sgtmac_46]

Yes, I agree with you. But when it comes time to practice these techniques or blocks it does no good to practice them half assed. I am a firm believer in Hard in practice, Easy in battle. I tell the students to not short stroke their punches because when you get to the street and you're used to doing that you'll do it to an attacker. My instructor always said it takes pain to kill pain. The more you do something the easier it gets.

Stress inoculation......give the student ever increasing doses of what he fears.......only so much as he can handle, but always increasing......until he can handle far more than he'll probably need to.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Sorry about that. I didn't see that reference. I am also sorry to hear that some teachers think students are meant to be punching bags. I personally think that you should train smarter and not HARD-er. Meaning the impact aspects of it. Yes you need to know what it is liek to feel a hit, but that doesn't mean pound the crap out of each other either. Save that for people in the street. Best training you can provide someone in my opinion is not how to take a hit, but how to think under pressure, and how to control your adrenaline. Not , how to go toe to toe with a combatant. It kind of doesn't make sense to me. Sorry................ Fighting is 90% thought and 10% physical combat.

It depends on what you want out of training.......if what you want is a colorful costume and a formal reverence to tradition, there's nothing wrong with that.

However, if our first goal and intent is to put the emphasis on the MARTIAL rather than the art.......then you learn to fight by learning to fight......and as to the thinking, part of being able to think is to learn to think while fighting......by fighting.

You can't train someone to train while being punched without training them while they are being punched. Some folks think they can.....but the results can often be seen when their students REALLY get punched for the first time.

Again, if your goal is 90% art and 10% martial, more power to you.........but thinking you can learn to fight without fighting, is like thinking you can learn to play football without ever gearing up, getting on a football field and running plays while folks are slamming in to you......it's wishful thinking at best.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Of course you are right about that. A person should know what they are getting into, and understand that it is expected that they subject to the school's approach. And theat means they have to do some research up front.

It would be rather silly of me to start muay thai, kyukishinkan, or kempo (based on your description. no kempo around here) if I was not prepared to spar full contact

I don't have any negative thoughts about full contact, or those who do it. It's just not something I like doing myself, for the reasons mentioned above. And I have a lot of respect for people who do.

Exactly right......I pass no judgment about folks who want to practice an art form that is also a good workout, with traditions and discipline. Nothing wrong with that.

Where I begin to disagree, though, is when those folks get the idea that they are somehow preparing for a physical confrontation on the same level as those who spar hard and make had contact......or, in some cases, that they actually think they are MORE prepared because of some esoteric secret 5 finger floating palm technique.

The bottom line is that we need to be honest with ourselves what we are doing, and what it is good for and what it isn't.

 

[Bruno@MT]

However, if our first goal and intent is to put the emphasis on the MARTIAL rather than the art.......then you learn to fight by learning to fight......and as to the thinking, part of being able to think is to learn to think while fighting......by fighting.

Not black and white. Just because you use enough control not to KO people or punching them full force in the liver doesn't mean you are not fighting. Yes, I will be less experienced than someone doing full contact, but that does not make what I do glorified dancing.

You can't train someone to train while being punched without training them while they are being punched. Some folks think they can.....but the results can often be seen when their students REALLY get punched for the first time.

There is more to fighting than punching and kicking.
An experienced judoka can kick ***, yet he doesn't spar acording to your definition. He uses throws and locks instead of kicks and punches.
I am a newbie at ninpo, but I have 3,5 years of ju-jitsu experience with locks, throws etc. So while I won't stand a chance in a standing distance fight, if I can come close enough to grab hold, I am definitely a match for someone who hasn't focused on that.

Have you ever seen the gracie challenge fights, where royce gracie challenged MA teachers to fight? most distance fighters didn't have a clue what to do when royce got in and worked his stuff.

so no full contact does not mean that you are unprepared to fight. It depends on how you train, how you spar and what your style is.

Again, if your goal is 90% art and 10% martial, more power to you.........but thinking you can learn to fight without fighting, is like thinking you can learn to play football without ever gearing up, getting on a football field and running plays while folks are slamming in to you......it's wishful thinking at best.

I am pretty sure that even in football practise, team mates don't hit each other with all of the nastiness that is used in the field. They will perform takedowns and tackles, but they are not intent on really hurting each other. And even if they do in the major league, they won't in the minor league. And that doesn't mean that the minor leaguers don't play football.

Where I begin to disagree, though, is when those folks get the idea that they are somehow preparing for a physical confrontation on the same level as those who spar hard and make had contact......or, in some cases, that they actually think they are MORE prepared because of some esoteric secret 5 finger floating palm technique.
.

If the full contact fighter is not also training in grapling / wrestling / submission, he is also not fully preparing.
If a full contact fighter has no experience with jiu-jitsu style fighting, then it all depends on who can dictate the distance.
Btw, youtube has a large collection of the gracie fights to prove this point. search for 'gracie vs kungfu' or 'gracie vs xxx'

I agree with the 5 finger floating palm remark.
In ninpo we also learn about the location of pressure points etc. But if your basic skills are not up to snuff, they that knowledge won't do you any good. On the other hand, if you spend years and years on the basics, then the more exotic stuff can give you an edge. You can't take shortcuts though.

The bottom line is that we need to be honest with ourselves what we are doing, and what it is good for and what it isn't.

That is absolutely true.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Not black and white. Just because you use enough control not to KO people or punching them full force in the liver doesn't mean you are not fighting. Yes, I will be less experienced than someone doing full contact, but that does not make what I do glorified dancing.

No, it doesn't mean someone is just doing glorified dancing.....but without hard contact, someone isn't fully preparing for hard contact either.

There is more to fighting than punching and kicking.
An experienced judoka can kick ***, yet he doesn't spar acording to your definition. He uses throws and locks instead of kicks and punches.
I am a newbie at ninpo, but I have 3,5 years of ju-jitsu experience with locks, throws etc. So while I won't stand a chance in a standing distance fight, if I can come close enough to grab hold, I am definitely a match for someone who hasn't focused on that.

That's because Judoka (I am one) randori, and train EXACTLY how they fight......by slamming each other in to the mat, throwing on chokes and armbars full power, and generally sparring hard. By 'hard contact' I don't just mean Muay Thai or boxing.....I mean hard sparring. Grapplers spar hard, and engage in heavy physical contact. They learn what it's like to have their head in a vice, with someone torquing down, crushing the air out, and the panic of being pinned and unable to move.....and then learn to operate in that environment.

Have you ever seen the gracie challenge fights, where royce gracie challenged MA teachers to fight? most distance fighters didn't have a clue what to do when royce got in and worked his stuff.

Ah, but again the Gracies train like they fight........hard sparring, choking and throwing on arm bars at full power, tapping each other out, and even choking each other out. Hard contact, repeated over and over again until training is as much like fighting as can possibly be done.

so no full contact does not mean that you are unprepared to fight. It depends on how you train, how you spar and what your style is.

I disagree.......as I pointed out earlier, preparing for a physical altercation without physical contact, is like preparing to play tackle football by practicing touch football......you can only learn so much without being under the pressure of hitting and being hit, and learning what it's like to hit and be hit. Yes, it's better than doing nothing.......but it's certainly not a substitute for hard contact, if it is one's goal to realistically prepare for a physical struggle. If that's not one's goal, then so be it. We live in a society where it really isn't necessary to fight.....there are alternatives and options.

I am pretty sure that even in football practise, team mates don't hit each other with all of the nastiness that is used in the field. They will perform takedowns and tackles, but they are not intent on really hurting each other. And even if they do in the major league, they won't in the minor league. And that doesn't mean that the minor leaguers don't play football.

Nor is a sparing partner trying to hurt the other sparing partner by punching and kicking them.....but they ARE trying to recreate, as close as possible, real conditions WITHOUT inflicting injury. That is the point. The more realistic the practice, the more one prepares for the real thing.

In short, anything less than full contact is less than full preparation. If someone is satisified with partial preparation, that's fine with me.......we just need to be honest with ourselves about our own level of training and capability. Just because someone isn't training to peak, doesn't mean they can't handle MANY situations......but it's not to the same level of preparation as it could be.

If the full contact fighter is not also training in grapling / wrestling / submission, he is also not fully preparing.
If a full contact fighter has no experience with jiu-jitsu style fighting, then it all depends on who can dictate the distance.
Btw, youtube has a large collection of the gracie fights to prove this point. search for 'gracie vs kungfu' or 'gracie vs xxx'

There's the confusion........Randori IS full contact impact......we're not just talking about stand up striking. We're talking about slamming and being slammed to the mat, choking and being choked, etc. Randori is to Judo what full contact sparring is to boxing and muay thai.

I agree with the 5 finger floating palm remark.
In ninpo we also learn about the location of pressure points etc. But if your basic skills are not up to snuff, they that knowledge won't do you any good. On the other hand, if you spend years and years on the basics, then the more exotic stuff can give you an edge. You can't take shortcuts though.

True, but you learn how to fire that basic shot under pressure by having someone firing punches at your head. That's why boxers are the MASTERS of the basics.......most boxers learn 6 basic punches....8 if you count overhand right and overhand left. Many only use 4 different types of punches in a given fight. But they have mastered them through repetation, and HONED their skill under hard contact sparring. Boxers learn how to stay cool under pressure by training under pressure, and they learn to fire off their arsenal in situations where someone else is returning fire.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Ah, but again the Gracies train like they fight........hard sparring, choking and throwing on arm bars at full power, tapping each other out, and even choking each other out. Hard contact, repeated over and over again until training is as much like fighting as can possibly be done.

Just a minor point of clarification: in randori you don't put on arm bars and wrist locks at full power. If a lock is executed properly and at full power, the elbow snaps. So do wrists and fingers (which snap like a twig).

Randori relies on the person being subjected to the lock admitting that the lock is set, and tapping out accordingly without the lock being applied full power. Only then can you spar using locks while preventing permanent injury.
If you do put on locks full power, you'll end up injuring sparring partners regularly.

 

[bowser666]

You are kind of contradicting yourself in your posts Sgt. Mac. You say you have no problem with people who train for the art, and for health reasons, yet you make some snide comments in regard to people wanting to wear a colorful costume and basically "play at being tough" ? That is quite pompous on your part. Worry about the reasons you are training and let others worry about theirs. I kind of found that a bit arrogant to be honest.

 

[sgtmac_46]

You are kind of contradicting yourself in your posts Sgt. Mac. You say you have no problem with people who train for the art, and for health reasons, yet you make some snide comments in regard to people wanting to wear a colorful costume and basically "play at being tough" ? That is quite pompous on your part. Worry about the reasons you are training and let others worry about theirs. I kind of found that a bit arrogant to be honest.

No contradiction. What I SAID was that anyone can train for whatever reason you want....and I respect any reason anyone wants to train in anything, PROVIDING they are honest about the end results of that training.

But one should not pretend that ALL ways are an equal means to the same end. Specifically, the notion that one can NEVER make contact in their training, and still consider themselves equally prepared to deal with violence.

I respect all arts, for what they are. And they all serve a different purpose. Where I have a disagreement, though, is the idea that all arts are a different path to the same end. Some arts are useful for spiritual enlightenment, physical development and some measure of self-defense. Others are minimal on spiritual enlightenment, more on physical development and far more on self-defense. The honesty comes in admitting that you cannot be all things to all purposes. And there is only so far one can prepare for a physical confrontation without hard contact.

If that sounded more arrogant than I intended, my apologies. I tend to be blunt, and many confuse that with arrogance. I'll tone down the bluntness.