How do we desensitize our students to contact?

[searcher]

Riann-I would also like a little deeper explanation, maybe in another thread, about what you are saying in your post. Kata andpartner training are important, but they are only pieces of the puzzle.


On subject-some of our kata are for body conditioning and you get whacked while you are doing them. Ths could pose a problem for the ones we have made discussion of that want NO physical contact. We start off light and then progress as the students move up in rank. I think this is probably the same with almost any type of training, correct?

 

[Thesemindz]

As an interesting addition to this thread, I was talking to a friend of mine today about his sister who is taking ballroom dance lessons.

In her school, they addressed this on the first day in the first class. They said that people always get squeamish about touching other adults, so for the first minute of class they paired them all off male/female, and had them stand there hugging each other. For a full minute.

After that awkward hug, most people don't object to putting their hand on someone else's back or holding their hand.

It's a thought. How many martial arts schools are this direct when they begin teaching new students?


-Rob

 

[suicide]

:jediduel: %-}

 

[just2kicku]

As an interesting addition to this thread, I was talking to a friend of mine today about his sister who is taking ballroom dance lessons.

In her school, they addressed this on the first day in the first class. They said that people always get squeamish about touching other adults, so for the first minute of class they paired them all off male/female, and had them stand there hugging each other. For a full minute.

After that awkward hug, most people don't object to putting their hand on someone else's back or holding their hand.

It's a thought. How many martial arts schools are this direct when they begin teaching new students?


-Rob

Now we're talking about squeamish and not people who "freak out" when touched ? If that's the case then when people sign up they are told right out of the gate it's going to be physical and that there will be contact, so I gotta go with TwinFist idea of hitting them till they get used to it.

 

[TigerCraneGuy]

Funny this thread should come up now.

Just last week, I was told by a white belt that I 'blocked' his arm too hard. I shot him an expression of incredulity; he then went on to say that 'no one else blocks this hard' giving me a look that said 'you horrible monster!'

I was once a Purple Belt in Kenpo getting ready to grade for Blue.

I'm now just a Yellow Belt going for his Orange who 'blocks' too hard (Started formal training again after a break of about 8 years).

The technique was Delayed Sword, i.e. technique number 1, and this was not the first time we'd practised it.

I appreciate not going hard on the vital point strikes to areas like the throat; that's just stupid and possibly criminal. But easing up on a block?

Go figure.

TCG

BTW I'm 36 and he's only 41, so its not the case of some young punk beating up on a frail old man.

Ah well... the joys!

 

[Slihn]

Simpily put ; sparring but you must take care the way you spar. I see alot of people "spar" but it looks more like fighting. You have should spar with high intensity but low impact. That way a student can get the feel of a fight, but be comfortable enough (that he/she wont get knocked ago) that he/she can try new things. If you spar to hard , then you run the risk of injury and are less likely to experiment with new techniques , because if anything goes wrong you'll get hurt.

Also students / teachers whose skills exceeds their sparing partner , must adjust the intensity to what the student can handle. If the student is being completely pummeld by attacks , he /she may lost confidence and will not be able to learn much from sparring.

 

[Thesemindz]

Now we're talking about squeamish and not people who "freak out" when touched ? If that's the case then when people sign up they are told right out of the gate it's going to be physical and that there will be contact, so I gotta go with TwinFist idea of hitting them till they get used to it.

Actually, I'm talking about everything between squeamish and total freak out. My point is that your modern American isn't used to, and doesn't like, being touched, for a variety of reasons.

Sorry, but I'm never going to subscribe to the "hit 'em till they quit whining" approach, or the "wimps can go next door" approach. I think we can bring them along, upping the degree of contact gradually, until they want to get hit harder.


-Rob

 

[bowser666]

That is what they did in the old days and it still works.

Men were really Men back then.

Here is one positive rep. :ultracool

Men were really men ? What the heck does that have to do with anything ? That is the Macho BS crap I was talking about in a earlier post. I would think it is about being smarter and not thinking with your fists. Its actually called evolution lol. Statements like this sadden me , I am sorry to say.

 

[StrongFighter]

Men were really men ? What the heck does that have to do with anything ? That is the Macho BS crap I was talking about in a earlier post. I would think it is about being smarter and not thinking with your fists. Its actually called evolution lol. Statements like this sadden me , I am sorry to say.

Try the evolution crap in prison or in boot camp or places or on the battlefield where fighting survival is absolutely needed and you will be mortified.

Thinking smarter with good values, trying to talk and calm them down will get you nowhere and possibly killed. In most normal circumstances, That is a good social skill and a very positive trait to have.

You have to have a different way of thinking mindset to go with that. It is an admirable trait to have but there are men in this world who do not think the same way most people think.

There is a good reason why it is called " The Survival of the Fittest. "

It worked in ancient times and it will work today and it will work tomorrow.

For the martial art classes, sometimes rough n' tumbling time is good to test and see how much and how far a student has learned as close to the real thing.

Rape survivors are a whole another category which needs to be dealt with very gently and take it slow as they build up the courage to fight back then push the envelope incrementally until it is clear she can fight back, for her life.

The politically correct crap is what has me so sick. You can't go around suing people for injuries sustained in martial art classes that were genuine accidents. I have gotten hurt before in martial art classes and what did I do ? I got right back up and went right along with the class.

It is called a WAR ART for a good reason. Most people do it for health reasons like Tai Chi. That is fine. At the end of the day, it is still a martial art. ( a war art ) You should read up about the real history of Tai Chi sometime. You will be shocked that it actually was a war art, not a peaceful art like it is today with ancient rusty leaves blowing in the wind.

Men back then did not cry or complain. They simply were taught and fought. Pain was part of learning. Men shut the boys up and whupped them real quick when the boys complained and stuck them with someone who will make him fight because he has no choice to FIGHT AND LEARN HOW or suffer the shame of injuries and the loss which instills that warrior mindset that losing to the enemy is worse than death.

That is the Bushido code. It was part of the Roman Army Legion's code. Part of the Greek's code too. Every martial art has some kind of warrior code that you live not up to but live by. It becomes a way of life.

If you still do not understand, watch the movie about the Greeks and the Persians called " 300 " until you really understand that one. The training is called Agoge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agoge

Today's martial art classes are watered down agoges but you still can learn about the history, tracing the techniques to ancient warfare techniques. It is just not to that extreme level as it rightfully should be.

Bruce Lee said it best. " What you HABITUALLY THINK largely determines what you will ultimately become. "

" A self-willed man obeys a different law, the one law I, too, hold absolutely sacred — the human law in himself, his own individual will. "

" Life itself is your teacher, and you are in a state of constant learning. "

Unconsciously or not, You are learning a warrior art passed down from generations. Almost all of the martial arts has a long history of being involved in ancient wars. The boys quickly became Men in no time.

 

[bowser666]

Try the evolution crap in prison or in boot camp or places or on the battlefield where fighting survival is absolutely needed and you will be mortified.

Thinking smarter with good values, trying to talk and calm them down will get you nowhere and possibly killed. In most normal circumstances, that is a good social skill and a very positive trait to have

You have to have a different way of thinking mindset to go with that. It is an admirable trait to have but there are men in this world who do not think the same way most people think.

There is a good reason why it is called " The Survival of the Fittest. "

It worked in ancient times and it will work today and it will work tomorrow.

For the martial art classes, sometimes rough n' tumbling time is good to test and see how much and how far a student has learned as close to the real thing.

Rape survivors are a whole another category which needs to be dealt with very gently and take it slow as they build up the courage to fight back then push the envelope incrementally until it is clear she can fight back, for her life.

The politically correct crap is what has me so sick. You can't go around suing people for injuries sustained in martial art classes that were genuine accidents. I have gotten hurt before in martial art classes and what did I do ? I got right back up and went right along with the class.

It is called a WAR ART for a good reason. Most people do it for health reasons like Tai Chi. That is fine. At the end of the day, it is still a martial art. ( a war art ) You should read up about the real history of Tai Chi sometime. You will be shocked that it actually was a war art, not a peaceful art like it is today with ancient rusty leaves blowing in the wind.

Men back then did not cry or complain. They simply were taught and fought. Pain was part of learning. Men shut the boys up and whupped them real quick when the boys complained and stuck them with someone who will make him fight because he has no choice to FIGHT AND LEARN HOW or suffer the shame of injuries and the loss which instills that warrior mindset that losing to the enemy is worse than death.

That is the Bushido code. It was part of the Roman Army Legion's code. Part of the Greek's code too. Every martial art has some kind of warrior code that you live not up to but live by. It becomes a way of life.

If you still do not understand, watch the movie about the Greeks and the Persians called " 300 " until you really understand that one. It is called Agoge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agoge

Today's martial art classes are watered down agoges but you still can learn about the history, tracing the techniques to ancient warfare techniques. It is just not to that extreme level as it rightfully should be.

Bruce Lee said it best. " What you HABITUALLY THINK largely determines what you will ultimately become. "

" A self-willed man obeys a different law, the one law I, too, hold absolutely sacred — the human law in himself, his own individual will. "

" Life itself is your teacher, and you are in a state of constant learning. "

Unconsciously or not, You are learning a warrior art passed down from generations. Almost all of the martial arts has a long history of being involved in ancient wars. The boys quickly became Men in no time.

I understand your point but ever think that it's just that mentality that may have a direct contribution to putting them in prison ? LOL Relook at what you jstu wrote. i am not trying to be sarcastic but help you see what you said. Solving problems with contact/violence/overagression, etc. no doubt put them in prison. In regards to being on the Battlefield , obviously there would be a difference. It is after all WAR !!! Good thing we do not live in a constant state of war in the US then huh ? Well not yet anyways....


By the way I study Tajiquan and am well aware that it is a Martial ART. Please don't assume that you are talking to an unlearned person. Remember this forum is full of knowledgeable students/teachers/masters. You have to also understand that this is modern day, not Sparta, Or Ancient Greece, or Miedeval China. It is a more modern day and age and we are supposed to be more civilized.

For the record I avidly practice Kung Fu, I also practice Tai Chi. We do plenty of Chin na, San Shou Sparring in class. I am jsut not about the macho , I punch you in face . I am man. We are not cave men anymore. We can adapt the art to fit our lifestyle.

 

[Thesemindz]

this is modern day, not Sparta, Or Ancient Greece, or Miedeval China. It is a more modern day and age and we are supposed to be more civilized.

I understand your point, and I think it has some merit, but I think you also have to remember that there are animals all around you.

You drive right past them every day. You see them at the supermarket, and the mall, and the theater. They work with you, they eat at the same restaraunts you do, and they pray to the same god.

The difference is they may occasionally rape, murder, mug, assault, and torture people just like you. Which, I am assuming here, you do not.

The world may seem more civilized, but many of the people within it are not. There are monsters around you every day. Keep an eye out and an ear open and you'll see them. Contrary to the old saying, they don't all look just like everybody else.


-Rob

 

[bowser666]

I understand your point, and I think it has some merit, but I think you also have to remember that there are animals all around you.

You drive right past them every day. You see them at the supermarket, and the mall, and the theater. They work with you, they eat at the same restaraunts you do, and they pray to the same god.

The difference is they may occasionally rape, murder, mug, assault, and torture people just like you. Which, I am assuming here, you do not.

The world may seem more civilized, but many of the people within it are not. There are monsters around you every day. Keep an eye out and an ear open and you'll see them. Contrary to the old saying, they don't all look just like everybody else.


-Rob

Its very true, and it is a reason I practice Kung Fu , so that I am better equipped to handle an issue. I also know that I am not going to walk around living in fear because the person that lives across the hall is a psychopath. ( She is actually pretty hot ! ) Then again she might be a Loretta Bobbit I suppose ( YIKES !!!) There are always going to be bad apples in every bunch. I will worry about them, when they get in my face. Otherwise I will be guarded , but not live hiding behind closed doors for fear of my neighbor.

 

[Slihn]

Now we're talking about squeamish and not people who "freak out" when touched ? If that's the case then when people sign up they are told right out of the gate it's going to be physical and that there will be contact, so I gotta go with TwinFist idea of hitting them till they get used to it.

I'm sorry man , but I have to disagree with you on this.I think a better approach is to actually teach them someting about fighting and defense, build their confidence , and then after they are confident in their skills then slowly introduce them to light contact.Thats the way we do in in Muay Thai and Muay Thai has brought fourth some of the most powerful strikers on the face of the planet.

Its funny the way the we train in America , we are so fast to beat each other silly , but if you go to Thailand , they go really hard on the pads and light on each other.There are very few injuries there and 99.9% of the fighters are HIGHLY skillful!!

 

[Slihn]

Try the evolution crap in prison or in boot camp or places or on the battlefield where fighting survival is absolutely needed and you will be mortified.

Thinking smarter with good values, trying to talk and calm them down will get you nowhere and possibly killed. In most normal circumstances, That is a good social skill and a very positive trait to have.

You have to have a different way of thinking mindset to go with that. It is an admirable trait to have but there are men in this world who do not think the same way most people think.

There is a good reason why it is called " The Survival of the Fittest. "

It worked in ancient times and it will work today and it will work tomorrow.

For the martial art classes, sometimes rough n' tumbling time is good to test and see how much and how far a student has learned as close to the real thing.

Rape survivors are a whole another category which needs to be dealt with very gently and take it slow as they build up the courage to fight back then push the envelope incrementally until it is clear she can fight back, for her life.

The politically correct crap is what has me so sick. You can't go around suing people for injuries sustained in martial art classes that were genuine accidents. I have gotten hurt before in martial art classes and what did I do ? I got right back up and went right along with the class.

It is called a WAR ART for a good reason. Most people do it for health reasons like Tai Chi. That is fine. At the end of the day, it is still a martial art. ( a war art ) You should read up about the real history of Tai Chi sometime. You will be shocked that it actually was a war art, not a peaceful art like it is today with ancient rusty leaves blowing in the wind.

Men back then did not cry or complain. They simply were taught and fought. Pain was part of learning. Men shut the boys up and whupped them real quick when the boys complained and stuck them with someone who will make him fight because he has no choice to FIGHT AND LEARN HOW or suffer the shame of injuries and the loss which instills that warrior mindset that losing to the enemy is worse than death.

That is the Bushido code. It was part of the Roman Army Legion's code. Part of the Greek's code too. Every martial art has some kind of warrior code that you live not up to but live by. It becomes a way of life.

If you still do not understand, watch the movie about the Greeks and the Persians called " 300 " until you really understand that one. The training is called Agoge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agoge

Today's martial art classes are watered down agoges but you still can learn about the history, tracing the techniques to ancient warfare techniques. It is just not to that extreme level as it rightfully should be.

Bruce Lee said it best. " What you HABITUALLY THINK largely determines what you will ultimately become. "

" A self-willed man obeys a different law, the one law I, too, hold absolutely sacred — the human law in himself, his own individual will. "

" Life itself is your teacher, and you are in a state of constant learning. "

Unconsciously or not, You are learning a warrior art passed down from generations. Almost all of the martial arts has a long history of being involved in ancient wars. The boys quickly became Men in no time.

You have the wrong attidute for martial arts. I am a Muay Thai Fighter and an Iraq War Vetearn. I went to basic training and yes they yell and its brutal but honestly it is all not needed. I dont need someone yelling ans spitting in my face just to tell me how to take apart my rifle.I understand why they do it , but it is still un needed. Pain is not a part of learning , it is a part of conditioning. BIG difference. 90% of the yelling and screaming is for fear based motovation, but when it is time to actually learn something (like how to acutally shoot a rifle, when to aim for the kill , the oder of muiltple targets , how to raid and clear a room full of people without shoot hostiages) they calm it down abit so that you can acutally learn.

The "FIGHT AND LEARN HOW" approach produces sloppy fighters and ad reflexes. What is better is to learn the technique , drill it and then train it. This seperates the fighters from the brawlers.The military does the yelling thing only as an attempt , to give you a "killer instinct" , to make you "mean" and to raise moral, but when you need to learn technique they calm it down.

 

[Slihn]

Try the evolution crap in prison or in boot camp or places or on the battlefield where fighting survival is absolutely needed and you will be mortified.

Thinking smarter with good values, trying to talk and calm them down will get you nowhere and possibly killed. In most normal circumstances, That is a good social skill and a very positive trait to have.

You have to have a different way of thinking mindset to go with that. It is an admirable trait to have but there are men in this world who do not think the same way most people think.

There is a good reason why it is called " The Survival of the Fittest. "

It worked in ancient times and it will work today and it will work tomorrow.

For the martial art classes, sometimes rough n' tumbling time is good to test and see how much and how far a student has learned as close to the real thing.

Rape survivors are a whole another category which needs to be dealt with very gently and take it slow as they build up the courage to fight back then push the envelope incrementally until it is clear she can fight back, for her life.

The politically correct crap is what has me so sick. You can't go around suing people for injuries sustained in martial art classes that were genuine accidents. I have gotten hurt before in martial art classes and what did I do ? I got right back up and went right along with the class.

It is called a WAR ART for a good reason. Most people do it for health reasons like Tai Chi. That is fine. At the end of the day, it is still a martial art. ( a war art ) You should read up about the real history of Tai Chi sometime. You will be shocked that it actually was a war art, not a peaceful art like it is today with ancient rusty leaves blowing in the wind.

Men back then did not cry or complain. They simply were taught and fought. Pain was part of learning. Men shut the boys up and whupped them real quick when the boys complained and stuck them with someone who will make him fight because he has no choice to FIGHT AND LEARN HOW or suffer the shame of injuries and the loss which instills that warrior mindset that losing to the enemy is worse than death.

That is the Bushido code. It was part of the Roman Army Legion's code. Part of the Greek's code too. Every martial art has some kind of warrior code that you live not up to but live by. It becomes a way of life.

If you still do not understand, watch the movie about the Greeks and the Persians called " 300 " until you really understand that one. The training is called Agoge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agoge

Today's martial art classes are watered down agoges but you still can learn about the history, tracing the techniques to ancient warfare techniques. It is just not to that extreme level as it rightfully should be.

Bruce Lee said it best. " What you HABITUALLY THINK largely determines what you will ultimately become. "

" A self-willed man obeys a different law, the one law I, too, hold absolutely sacred — the human law in himself, his own individual will. "

" Life itself is your teacher, and you are in a state of constant learning. "

Unconsciously or not, You are learning a warrior art passed down from generations. Almost all of the martial arts has a long history of being involved in ancient wars. The boys quickly became Men in no time.

Also , American cilivan life ain't war, Ive been to war and this aint it. Martial Arts of these days should focus on self-defense not war. Unless you are a US. Army Solder or Marine than you really dont study "ancient warfare techniques" because you'll never use them.

 

[bowser666]

You have the wrong attidute for martial arts.

How do I have the wrong attitude lol ? Martial Arts is jsut this, you take away what you want from it. It is a ART, and a LIVING ART at that. It is adaptable to the practitioner. My attitude is that I am there to train and to learn, and gain more knowledge of self. How is that a wrong attitude ?It's MY ATTITUDE!I am confident enough in my well rounded abilities to handle myself appropriately. I am not going to live life with the Cobra Kai mentality of " There is no Pain in this dojo, fear does not exist in this dojo, there is no mercy , blah blah blah.

I am perfectly content with my attitude towards martial Arts.

 

[Thesemindz]

How do I have the wrong attitude lol ? Martial Arts is jsut this, you take away what you want from it. It is a ART, and a LIVING ART at that. It is adaptable to the practitioner. My attitude is that I am there to train and to learn, and gain more knowledge of self. How is that a wrong attitude ?It's MY ATTITUDE!I am confident enough in my well rounded abilities to handle myself appropriately. I am not going to live life with the Cobra Kai mentality of " There is no Pain in this dojo, fear does not exist in this dojo, there is no mercy , blah blah blah.

I am perfectly content with my attitude towards martial Arts.

Go back and look again, he wasn't responding to you. He was responding to StrongFighter.


-Rob

 

[Slihn]

How do I have the wrong attitude lol ? Martial Arts is jsut this, you take away what you want from it. It is a ART, and a LIVING ART at that. It is adaptable to the practitioner. My attitude is that I am there to train and to learn, and gain more knowledge of self. How is that a wrong attitude ?It's MY ATTITUDE!I am confident enough in my well rounded abilities to handle myself appropriately. I am not going to live life with the Cobra Kai mentality of " There is no Pain in this dojo, fear does not exist in this dojo, there is no mercy , blah blah blah.


I am perfectly content with my attitude towards martial Arts.

Hey man I was responding to someone else. I agree with you.

 

[just2kicku]

Actually, I'm talking about everything between squeamish and total freak out. My point is that your modern American isn't used to, and doesn't like, being touched, for a variety of reasons.

Sorry, but I'm never going to subscribe to the "hit 'em till they quit whining" approach, or the "wimps can go next door" approach. I think we can bring them along, upping the degree of contact gradually, until they want to get hit harder.


-Rob

If we're talking about touching, that starts the first day. We are constantly "touching" the students. When I correct them I touch them. It could be squaring their shoulders or raising their block where it's supposed to be or kicking their back leg so they lock it in a front stance. Once they've learned techniques, there is nothing worse then for them to short their punch five inches from your face. Yes, we subscribe to the rule that if you get punched in your face then you should have blocked it. The students seem to like this training. We kick their legs and punch their stomachs when they are in a horse to make sure they are tightend up. And there is a dance studio next door to us. LOL

I am not a babysitter or a cardio instructor, we teach self defence. I've said in one of my posts that by orange belt we expect good, hard contact giving and receiving. I care for all the students, I want them to be good at this. With some, they go so far and hit that mental "I'm scared" block. That's when I say hit them some more, get them used to it. I let them hit me too, it's not a one way street.

I've said this before, but this generation has gotten soft.

 

[just2kicku]

I'm sorry man , but I have to disagree with you on this.I think a better approach is to actually teach them someting about fighting and defense, build their confidence , and then after they are confident in their skills then slowly introduce them to light contact.Thats the way we do in in Muay Thai and Muay Thai has brought fourth some of the most powerful strikers on the face of the planet.

Its funny the way the we train in America , we are so fast to beat each other silly , but if you go to Thailand , they go really hard on the pads and light on each other.There are very few injuries there and 99.9% of the fighters are HIGHLY skillful!!

Yes, I agree with you. But when it comes time to practice these techniques or blocks it does no good to practice them half assed. I am a firm believer in Hard in practice, Easy in battle. I tell the students to not short stroke their punches because when you get to the street and you're used to doing that you'll do it to an attacker. My instructor always said it takes pain to kill pain. The more you do something the easier it gets.