How Important is Fighting in YOUR Martial Art?

[K-man]

Honestly, the sparring portion is far more telling;

Hanzou, are you aware that Japanese Goju has different types of sparring? You love posting videos to prove how bad other styles are compared to what you say you do but in this case you have posted a clip of awasse kumite or slow sparring, a tool to develop your understanding of distance and control. I think that Tom Hills style is basically an Okinawan form of Goju but seeing that Okinawan karate has very little sparring it is understandable that he would adopt the Goju Kai style training for guys who want to spar or enter competition. Obviously there is no exact line dividing awasse kumite and jiyu kumite, so there is an overlap where more experienced guys will move faster and less experienced, slower.

If you are going to post video of karate sparring at least post stuff that is representative of the art even if neither of us likes it for totally opposite reasons.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'm not sure which I find more annoying - that style of sparring or the music they have going.

 

[Blindside]

I'm not sure which I find more annoying - that style of sparring or the music they have going.

I watched it without sound, definately the style of sparring. uhg.

 

[drop bear]

I don't have an is due with this. The 'fantasy' attacks are what I describe as God's gift to you. If you get that sort of attack, great but it is not all that likely if the guy with the knife has any experience. However there are different factors in play. Does the guy really want to kill or is there another reason for using the knife? If it is a robbery or hostage situation you may well have a static knife. If it is a domestic, the ice pick attack is the most common here. But we train with knives every night to get the guys familiar with the 'real' style attacks as shown in your video. It is not easy to defend against a knife which us why the advice is always, "if you don't have to fight the guy with a knife, don't. Keep your ego out of it."

And you don't think that is a bit backwards?

I mean we train a defence that can pretty reliably get us cut to ribbons in training vs a rubber knife. From a guy with almost no training.

But the technique still works because reasons.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure which I find more annoying - that style of sparring or the music they have going.

Except what is our street logic. That fights last 3 seconds and the first person to get a shot off gains the distinct advantage.

 

[drop bear]

Except what is our street logic. That fights last 3 seconds and the first person to get a shot off gains the distinct advantage.

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Everybody hates point fighting and distance fighting and back foot fighting and i think there are some wrong reasons behind it.

The idea that a fight is a no room affair to the death all the time is a misconception. And personally creating space can work in your favor.

 

[FriedRice]

So it depends on what you want to test. If you want to test a particular technique you need a particular attack and as you say, that is not really applicable to the real world. However, if you don't specify an attack you can test the student's response to an unknown, realistic attack. To me that is far more realistic than sport sparring.

What kind of "sport sparring". TMA tippy-tappy sport sparring or 100% power, in Boxing gym, sparring to KO your partner? Punching someone in the face, as hard as possible and as many times it takes to KO them, works just the same in the street as it does in the ring.

 

[K-man]

What kind of "sport sparring". TMA tippy-tappy sport sparring or 100% power, in Boxing gym, sparring to KO your partner? Punching someone in the face, as hard as possible and as many times it takes to KO them, works just the same in the street as it does in the ring.

For a start, I don't know any TMAs that spar so that rules that one out and I have never seen 100% power sparring in a boxing gym either, especially against your training partner. If we had our old emoticons I'd be running up the BS flag on that one. Finally, punching someone in the face is unlikely to KO them either. Apart from that, cool post.

 

[drop bear]

For a start, I don't know any TMAs that spar so that rules that one out and I have never seen 100% power sparring in a boxing gym either, especially against your training partner. If we had our old emoticons I'd be running up the BS flag on that one. Finally, punching someone in the face is unlikely to KO them either. Apart from that, cool post.

huh?

plenty of tmas spar. Very few don't.

I have seen 100% sparring and even KOs from face punches.

I am not sure where you are going at all with this.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

What kind of "sport sparring". TMA tippy-tappy sport sparring or 100% power, in Boxing gym, sparring to KO your partner?

I have never seen 100% power sparring in a boxing gym either, especially against your training partner.

I have seen 100% sparring and even KOs from face punches.

I have seen folks sparring in the ring at 100%, but it's not the norm at most places. Usually it happens when egos or tempers get out of control. It's not the best way to learn and is a good way to get injured before you get to actual competition. Most boxers have enough sense to save that level of intensity for the actual match.

The folks at the Militech gym famously did spar 100% as a regular thing, leading to lots of knock outs and injuries in training. They produced some good fighters, but I suspect they also suffered a lot of unnecessary brain damage.

 

[drop bear]

I have seen folks sparring in the ring at 100%, but it's not the norm at most places. Usually it happens when egos or tempers get out of control. It's not the best way to learn and is a good way to get injured before you get to actual competition. Most boxers have enough sense to save that level of intensity for the actual match.

The folks at the Militech gym famously did spar 100% as a regular thing, leading to lots of knock outs and injuries in training. They produced some good fighters, but I suspect they also suffered a lot of unnecessary brain damage.

I think you should probably at least do a bit before you jump in the ring. For us there is a tapering process. So the sparring gets harder and then drops off about a week before.

As far as temper egos go. You have starved bashed and basically tortured a guy in preparation to fight someone in public so they can get a little emotional.

 

[drop bear]

As far as maintaining hard sparring. If the sparring partner is considerably better the fighter might go 100% but the partner may stay at 80%

Or If the fighter is better we might switch out the sparring partner each minute.

 

[Instructor]

To me a fight is real. Not an exercise or a competition but, you know real. As in some person decides to beat the living crap out of you, mug you, rob you, rape you, kill you, maim you, hurt you. For some of motivation. That's fighting.

We spar, it's educational but is not fighting.

 

[K-man]

huh?

plenty of tmas spar. Very few don't.

I have seen 100% sparring and even KOs from face punches.

I am not sure where you are going at all with this.

Show me one TMA that spars in the way you mean, that is sport sparring. I have never seen one but I must confess I haven't looked to hard. I had enough in my early Goju Kai days.

 

[drop bear]

Show me one TMA that spars in the way you mean, that is sport sparring. I have never seen one but I must confess I haven't looked to hard. I had enough in my early Goju Kai days.

 

[drop bear]

But that depends on the context of the 'fight'. In the ring that is true. It is a game as you say, no different to playing chess. So that is what you train for. In the outside world you want to be out of the 'game', not in it. Hence the different emphasis on 'fighting' when we train.

The mental aspect is the same either way.

It is not really how that term is used. The idea is I fight where I have the advantage and you don't. That is my game.

 

[Blindside]

Hanzou, are you aware that Japanese Goju has different types of sparring?

For a start, I don't know any TMAs that spar so that rules that one out and I have never seen 100% power sparring in a boxing gym either,

These two statements seem contradictary, you don't know any TMAs that spar?

 

[K-man]

These two statements seem contradictary, you don't know any TMAs that spar?

I stand corrected. DB posted the video of Sumo! Even then I would suggest that they are engaging and grappling rather than dancing in and out trying to punch each other.

It depends on your definition of TMA. We 'spar' but in a similar way to what you would call sparring in Jujutsu or even BJJ. TMA is such a broad term that it becomes meaningless in a discussion like this.

We used to do sport sparring and it was great fun. We went in tournaments, me with very little success back then. But in the context of the OP realistic training is essential to any martial art but what we see the baggers calling 'tippy tappy TMA' has no place in my training and is not in any art that I call traditional that I can think of.

I think of the Japanese Karate styles and TKD as modern martial arts and that they have gone down the sport pathway is great. Just that is not how the older styles train.

But what really pisses me off is when the baggers post crappy video purporting to represent all karate.

 

[ShotoNoob]

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It depends on your definition of TMA. We 'spar' but in a similar way to what you would call sparring in Jujutsu or even BJJ. TMA is such a broad term that it becomes meaningless in a discussion like this.

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If one generalizes overly, this is true. TMA should have have certain standards that are followed across all styles... That's what makes them TMA's.

We used to do sport sparring and it was great fun. We went in tournaments, me with very little success back then. But in the context of the OP realistic training is essential to any martial art but what we see the baggers calling 'tippy tappy TMA' has no place in my training and is not in any art that I call traditional that I can think of.

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I guess to follow on, how does 'tippy tappy' meet the standards of TMA. I mean we never saw the Okinawan Karate Masters advocating such.... To speed forward to Ed Parker's American Kenpo, we never saw him teach 'tippy tappy.'

I think of the Japanese Karate styles and TKD as modern martial arts and that they have gone down the sport pathway is great. Just that is not how the older styles train.

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Again, I think this is a disservice to the serious *& dedicated practitioners in these styles. Are you lumping say, Richard Heselton in with the 'baggers' playing 'tippy tappy?'

But what really pisses me off is when the baggers post crappy video purporting to represent all karate.

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Hey, this is a driving reason why my competition record is what it is. But at some point, the supposed karate so posted has degenerated into some junior high school sporting game of who has the sneakier, quicker reactions to out-touch the other guy. I can't abide any one saying that this is the traditional karate system and what's more, I should have plenty of company from serious karateka of all kind....

 

[K-man]

If one generalizes overly, this is true. TMA should have have certain standards that are followed across all styles... That's what makes them TMA's.

Mmm. I have to disagree. Okinawa has criteria to determine if karate styles are traditional. They only recognise four styles as traditional.

I guess to follow on, how does 'tippy tappy' meet the standards of TMA. I mean we never saw the Okinawan Karate Masters advocating such.... To speed forward to Ed Parker's American Kenpo, we never saw him teach 'tippy tappy.'

'tippy tappy' is the derogatory description of karate and TKD sparring introduced by on of the MMA is best brigade. Okinawan karate does not have 'tippy tappy'. They don't spar this way as a general principle. There are other ways they test their skills.

Again, I think this is a disservice to the serious *& dedicated practitioners in these styles. Are you lumping say, Richard Heselton in with the 'baggers' playing 'tippy tappy?'

Not at all. Now I'd never heard of Richard Heselton but I'm assuming he is a top competition competitor. Whether the baggers would call what he does 'tippy tappy' you would have to ask them. I think most of their posts are a disservice to all serious and dedicated practitioners. That's why I hold them in such low esteem.

Hey, this is a driving reason why my competition record is what it is. But at some point, the supposed karate so posted has degenerated into some junior high school sporting game of who has the sneakier, quicker reactions to out-touch the other guy. I can't abide any one saying that this is the traditional karate system and what's more, I should have plenty of company from serious karateka of all kind....

Agree totally, but the baggers continue to post the worst examples of any art they can find to make their point that all other arts suck.